Biglaw associates: are any of us actually happy? Forum

[rpupkin]

yes because it comes at the cost of ruining your life. look around at the people who make partner - their lives are in shambles compared to the avg educated family. you dont retire at 50 because its always one more year of the money.

I suppose I'm looking at it from a slightly different perspective. I was an SA at a midlaw boutique this summer. The pay is biglaw market, and the hours are typical for a biglaw litigation practice -- 2,200 is expected, 2,600 is not uncommon. People are in the office till midnight when a filing is due, but they also go home for dinner with their families pretty often (and presumably log back on from home as needed). The partners have families, and they seem happy enough.

If you think that waking up, going to work, coming home at 6, eating dinner for one hour with your family, working at home from 7 to 10, and then watching an hour of TV before bed makes for a good life, then, yeah, you'll be happy in big law. But it wears on you after awhile. No offense, but working as a summer associate just can't give you a sense of what it's like to do this for years on end. (And, of course, you have no actual responsibility as a summer associate.)

[A. Nony Mouse]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

You are making it a referendum about the hours you worked as a summer by suggesting that you are in a position to tell actual associates what it's like to be an associate.

This is a terrible misread of what kcdc1 is saying.

The fact of the matter is that TLS loves it's melodrama, and the view on here is unbelievably skewed in favor of associates that want to whine.

I'm on track to bill 270 hours his month;it will be my third consecutive month billing at this pace. And I don't really care. I like my work, I take pride in it, and I believe that I can continue to develop my skills so as to produce even better work in the future.

I know some people are miserable, but that's definitely not all of us, and the typical TLS pile-on that claims EVERY biglaw attorney is miserable deserves pushback. That's what kcdc1 was doing: pushing back on a point that is clearly exaggerated and subject an echo-chamber mentality on these boards.

Why are the whiners the aberration and you the norm?

[Desert Fox]

[Johann]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

You are making it a referendum about the hours you worked as a summer by suggesting that you are in a position to tell actual associates what it's like to be an associate.

This is a terrible misread of what kcdc1 is saying.

The fact of the matter is that TLS loves it's melodrama, and the view on here is unbelievably skewed in favor of associates that want to whine.

I'm on track to bill 270 hours his month;it will be my third consecutive month billing at this pace. And I don't really care. I like my work, I take pride in it, and I believe that I can continue to develop my skills so as to produce even better work in the future.

I know some people are miserable, but that's definitely not all of us, and the typical TLS pile-on that claims EVERY biglaw attorney is miserable deserves pushback. That's what kcdc1 was doing: pushing back on a point that is clearly exaggerated and subject an echo-chamber mentality on these boards.

you probably envisioned a pretty boring life as a kid then. i think people can need biglaw as a workaholic and an outlet to turn somewhere and find meaning in an otherwise meaningless life that lacks love and experience. so cool, you are happy in biglaw but you also just confirmed that your standards for life are much lower than the rest of ours if you dont mind slave driving 10 hours a day of billables every day for the last 90 days of your life. that's what you just described, and any sane person would say yeah that life sucks.

[rpupkin]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

You are making it a referendum about the hours you worked as a summer by suggesting that you are in a position to tell actual associates what it's like to be an associate.

This is a terrible misread of what kcdc1 is saying.

The fact of the matter is that TLS loves it's melodrama, and the view on here is unbelievably skewed in favor of associates that want to whine.

I'm on track to bill 270 hours his month;it will be my third consecutive month billing at this pace. And I don't really care. I like my work, I take pride in it, and I believe that I can continue to develop my skills so as to produce even better work in the future.

I think that's great. Really, I do. It's just unusual. Most human beings can't bill 270 hours a month (which probably means you're working 80 hours a week) for months on end without burning out. I realize that associates like you exist, but I think it's fair to say they're the exception.

By the way, I don't hate working as a lawyer. Although I can't say with a straight face that I find it fulfilling, and although there's a lot of mindless drudgery, there are interesting intellectual challenges. And, unlike many on here, I like most of the attorneys I work with. I never think "I wish I were a doctor/banker/teacher/whatever instead." But the job requires a lot of work, and that work carries a fair amount of stress. It can wear you down. Lawyers on TLS are honest (and perhaps a little "melodramatic") about that reality, and I think that's fine.

[BiglawAssociate]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

You are making it a referendum about the hours you worked as a summer by suggesting that you are in a position to tell actual associates what it's like to be an associate.

This is a terrible misread of what kcdc1 is saying.

The fact of the matter is that TLS loves it's melodrama, and the view on here is unbelievably skewed in favor of associates that want to whine.

I'm on track to bill 270 hours his month;it will be my third consecutive month billing at this pace. And I don't really care. I like my work, I take pride in it, and I believe that I can continue to develop my skills so as to produce even better work in the future.

I know some people are miserable, but that's definitely not all of us, and the typical TLS pile-on that claims EVERY biglaw attorney is miserable deserves pushback. That's what kcdc1 was doing: pushing back on a point that is clearly exaggerated and subject an echo-chamber mentality on these boards.

you probably envisioned a pretty boring life as a kid then. i think people can need biglaw as a workaholic and an outlet to turn somewhere and find meaning in an otherwise meaningless life that lacks love and experience. so cool, you are happy in biglaw but you also just confirmed that your standards for life are much lower than the rest of ours if you dont mind slave driving 10 hours a day of billables every day for the last 90 days of your life. that's what you just described, and any sane person would say yeah that life sucks.

What I gleaned from his post was: He has no spouse or significant other; he has few friends; and he has no hobbies or interests. Now he's trying to derive self worth through work because he has literally nothing else going on in his life. Not only that, but he thinks he's superior to others at work because of that, and probably comes off as slightly smug, but in reality he's empty as fuck. Also he's going to be a 30 something year old single desperate to get married to have babies (there are some of these in biglaw - usually secretly desperate to get married).

[kaiser]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

You are making it a referendum about the hours you worked as a summer by suggesting that you are in a position to tell actual associates what it's like to be an associate.

This is a terrible misread of what kcdc1 is saying.

The fact of the matter is that TLS loves it's melodrama, and the view on here is unbelievably skewed in favor of associates that want to whine.

I'm on track to bill 270 hours his month;it will be my third consecutive month billing at this pace. And I don't really care. I like my work, I take pride in it, and I believe that I can continue to develop my skills so as to produce even better work in the future.

I know some people are miserable, but that's definitely not all of us, and the typical TLS pile-on that claims EVERY biglaw attorney is miserable deserves pushback. That's what kcdc1 was doing: pushing back on a point that is clearly exaggerated and subject an echo-chamber mentality on these boards.

I don't think anyone ever said that every single biglaw associate is miserable. THere will always be exceptions to the rule. And you are certainly the exception if you derive pride and happiness from the circumstances you mentioned.

[BiglawAssociate]

I don't think anyone ever said that every single biglaw associate is miserable. THere will always be exceptions to the rule. And you are certainly the exception if you derive pride and happiness from the circumstances you mentioned.

I know someone liek that at work. Everyone thinks he's a tool, albeit nice enough. Guy has literally nothing else going on in his life though. It's not even like he's making big money. He's making a biglaw ASSOCIATE salary. Why the fuck would you sacrifice the rest of your life for a biglaw ASSOCIATE salary. All this time spent working might be better spent networking your way into rich people's money. The best lesson in life is to WORK SMART, not hard.

[handsonthewheel]

This is a terrible misread of what kcdc1 is saying.

The fact of the matter is that TLS loves it's melodrama, and the view on here is unbelievably skewed in favor of associates that want to whine.

I'm on track to bill 270 hours his month;it will be my third consecutive month billing at this pace. And I don't really care. I like my work, I take pride in it, and I believe that I can continue to develop my skills so as to produce even better work in the future.

I know some people are miserable, but that's definitely not all of us, and the typical TLS pile-on that claims EVERY biglaw attorney is miserable deserves pushback. That's what kcdc1 was doing: pushing back on a point that is clearly exaggerated and subject an echo-chamber mentality on these boards.

What I gleaned from his post was: He has no spouse or significant other; he has few friends; and he has no hobbies or interests. Now he's trying to derive self worth through work because he has literally nothing else going on in his life. Not only that, but he thinks he's superior to others at work because of that, and probably comes off as slightly smug, but in reality he's empty as fuck. Also he's going to be a 30 something year old single desperate to get married to have babies (there are some of these in biglaw - usually secretly desperate to get married).

Some of the best associates are the worst humans (not bad people, just bad at being human).

If it works for them and makes them happy, great. But for someone who needs social connections, sunlight, exercise, hobbies and other things...biglaw becomes impossible to commit to.

[wons]

FWIW, I freaking love my job, love the work, really like the people I work with and generally could not be more content with what I do for a living. I'm a 6th year transactional associate in NYC.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Why are the whiners the aberration and you the norm?

I said TLS posters were predisposed to whine, not that my view was the "norm" in biglaw. Those are very different statements and I'd appreciate it if you didn't strawman my posts like that.

As for TLS posters, I don't think it's that surprising. It's hard for me to find time to post anymore; whereas if I was dissatisfied and wanted to complain I might find the time. Also, look at the pile on that took place since my last post; not exactly a conducive posting environment for someone with a dissenting view from the hive mind. Is it really surprising that over time only 1 point of view is promoted?

[Johann]

but this is the thing - we know from our friends and stuff in biglaw. i know 0 people happy in biglaw. we also know from the attrition rates. then we just have this board confirming it even more. those in the know, know its an under 5% happiness rate.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

What I gleaned from his post was: He has no spouse or significant other; he has few friends; and he has no hobbies or interests. Now he's trying to derive self worth through work because he has literally nothing else going on in his life. Not only that, but he thinks he's superior to others at work because of that, and probably comes off as slightly smug, but in reality he's empty as fuck. Also he's going to be a 30 something year old single desperate to get married to have babies (there are some of these in biglaw - usually secretly desperate to get married).

How bitter are you? This doesn't describe me at all.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

but this is the thing - we know from our friends and stuff in biglaw. i know 0 people happy in biglaw. we also know from the attrition rates. then we just have this board confirming it even more. those in the know, know its an under 5% happiness rate.

It's possible my view is skewed because: (1) I'm in the SF/SV market, so I don't really know what NYC biglaw is like, even though the average complaint on this board is from someone in NYC; (2) I do lit, as do 90% of my law school friends, so the whole "I worked on the signature page all night!" thing is also foreign to me; and (3) I went to law school for the work, not the money (which I know the posters here refuse to believe, but I don't really care).

Nonetheless, I know happy people in my office and have law school friends who are happy in biglaw. I also have friends and coworkers that are miserable, but I think it's far more evenly split than TLS makes it sound.

[wons]

but this is the thing - we know from our friends and stuff in biglaw. i know 0 people happy in biglaw. we also know from the attrition rates. then we just have this board confirming it even more. those in the know, know its an under 5% happiness rate.

It's possible my view is skewed because: (1) I'm in the SF/SV market, so I don't really know what NYC biglaw is like, even though the average complaint on this board is from someone in NYC; (2) I do lit, as do 90% of my law school friends, so the whole "I worked on the signature page all night!" thing is also foreign to me; and (3) I went to law school for the work, not the money (which I know the posters here refuse to believe, but I don't really care).

Nonetheless, I know happy people in my office and have law school friends who are happy in biglaw. I also have friends and coworkers that are miserable, but I think it's far more evenly split than TLS makes it sound.

No doubt. I'd say among my LS friends its about 50/50. A lot of people really like the job; more than one of my LS friends met their spouses at the office; it pays really well; your colleagues are generally smart as hell and interesting; the work is fun in the sense that you're playing chess against other smart people. The world described by the bitter posters on TLS is completely foreign to me - I've really only had one experience with a toxic personality at work out of the dozens and dozens of folks I've worked for and with. I don't think that ratio would be any better if I was at some corporate job somewhere - in fact I think it would be worse.

I can't emphasize enough how unrepresentative the TLS sample is relative to biglaw generally, at least in my experience, which is at this point pretty expansive.

[Tiago Splitter]

but this is the thing - we know from our friends and stuff in biglaw. i know 0 people happy in biglaw. we also know from the attrition rates. then we just have this board confirming it even more. those in the know, know its an under 5% happiness rate.

It's possible my view is skewed because: (1) I'm in the SF/SV market, so I don't really know what NYC biglaw is like, even though the average complaint on this board is from someone in NYC; (2) I do lit, as do 90% of my law school friends, so the whole "I worked on the signature page all night!" thing is also foreign to me; and (3) I went to law school for the work, not the money (which I know the posters here refuse to believe, but I don't really care).

Nonetheless, I know happy people in my office and have law school friends who are happy in biglaw. I also have friends and coworkers that are miserable, but I think it's far more evenly split than TLS makes it sound.

No doubt. I'd say among my LS friends its about 50/50. A lot of people really like the job; more than one of my LS friends met their spouses at the office; it pays really well; your colleagues are generally smart as hell and interesting; the work is fun in the sense that you're playing chess against other smart people. The world described by the bitter posters on TLS is completely foreign to me - I've really only had one experience with a toxic personality at work out of the dozens and dozens of folks I've worked for and with. I don't think that ratio would be any better if I was at some corporate job somewhere - in fact I think it would be worse.

I can't emphasize enough how unrepresentative the TLS sample is relative to biglaw generally, at least in my experience, which is at this point pretty expansive.

Why do you think the attrition rate is so high? I don't doubt your sincerity but it seems odd people would leave at such a high rate given the pay if they really liked it.

[kcdc1]

Why do you think the attrition rate is so high? I don't doubt your sincerity but it seems odd people would leave at such a high rate given the pay if they really liked it.

I see at least three possible reasons to leave:

(1) Hate biglaw, desperate to get out;
(2) Recognize lack of longterm future in biglaw (includes cases where associate is told as much);
(3) A better opportunity comes along.

The categories are not mutually exclusive.

[wons]

but this is the thing - we know from our friends and stuff in biglaw. i know 0 people happy in biglaw. we also know from the attrition rates. then we just have this board confirming it even more. those in the know, know its an under 5% happiness rate.

It's possible my view is skewed because: (1) I'm in the SF/SV market, so I don't really know what NYC biglaw is like, even though the average complaint on this board is from someone in NYC; (2) I do lit, as do 90% of my law school friends, so the whole "I worked on the signature page all night!" thing is also foreign to me; and (3) I went to law school for the work, not the money (which I know the posters here refuse to believe, but I don't really care).

Nonetheless, I know happy people in my office and have law school friends who are happy in biglaw. I also have friends and coworkers that are miserable, but I think it's far more evenly split than TLS makes it sound.

No doubt. I'd say among my LS friends its about 50/50. A lot of people really like the job; more than one of my LS friends met their spouses at the office; it pays really well; your colleagues are generally smart as hell and interesting; the work is fun in the sense that you're playing chess against other smart people. The world described by the bitter posters on TLS is completely foreign to me - I've really only had one experience with a toxic personality at work out of the dozens and dozens of folks I've worked for and with. I don't think that ratio would be any better if I was at some corporate job somewhere - in fact I think it would be worse.

I can't emphasize enough how unrepresentative the TLS sample is relative to biglaw generally, at least in my experience, which is at this point pretty expansive.

Why do you think the attrition rate is so high? I don't doubt your sincerity but it seems odd people would leave at such a high rate given the pay if they really liked it.

I can't speak for attrition outside of (1) my firm and (2) my circle of LS friends. But within those 2 groups, I've seen really surprisingly low attrition, much of it voluntary. Many of the folks I knew who left their original firms merely lateraled over into different, but equally good positions at another peer firm - maybe changing practice groups, moving back to a home market, or following a couple of partners that got poached.

I'm not saying there aren't washouts, because there are, but most of the folks I know have kept working at firms after their debt is either paid off or so significantly reduced that there isn't a gun to their heads. And its not for lack of options, because as a 4th and 5th year you are literally getting multiple calls per day asking you to apply to this job or that. Being at a firm has a lot of advantages, especially if you can survive the de facto hazing of the first couple of years and move into the position where you largely supervise yourself and report only to partners and clients.

[Cogburn87]

the work is fun in the sense that you're playing chess against other smart people.

"Checkmate," he lisped as he tagged the doc as "hot"

[wons]

the work is fun in the sense that you're playing chess against other smart people.

"Checkmate," he lisped as he tagged the doc as "hot"

<shrug> I can't speak to litigation, it seems miserable to me. Corporate is different - there's real money at stake and you can see the rewards of your work fairly quickly. I once was given this not-important agreement to negotiate against another associate - which they do sometimes to give you practice - and got an indemnity snuck in there. Much to everyone's surprise, we all got sued in connection with the deal. Indemnity ended up saving the client a couple of million bucks. That was kind of cool - got a nice thank you and a bottle of scotch from them. Is it the heady rush of thinking up a sector-disrupting mobile app or something like that? Duh, no. But it is more than pushing paper.

[smaug]

<shrug> I can't speak to litigation, it seems miserable to me. Corporate is different - there's real money at stake and you can see the rewards of your work fairly quickly. I once was given this not-important agreement to negotiate against another associate - which they do sometimes to give you practice - and got an indemnity snuck in there. Much to everyone's surprise, we all got sued in connection with the deal. Indemnity ended up saving the client a couple of million bucks. That was kind of cool - got a nice thank you and a bottle of scotch from them. Is it the heady rush of thinking up a sector-disrupting mobile app or something like that? Duh, no. But it is more than pushing paper.

And with that post you proved that you're a tool way better than any of us could have ever hoped to.

[wons]

<shrug> I can't speak to litigation, it seems miserable to me. Corporate is different - there's real money at stake and you can see the rewards of your work fairly quickly. I once was given this not-important agreement to negotiate against another associate - which they do sometimes to give you practice - and got an indemnity snuck in there. Much to everyone's surprise, we all got sued in connection with the deal. Indemnity ended up saving the client a couple of million bucks. That was kind of cool - got a nice thank you and a bottle of scotch from them. Is it the heady rush of thinking up a sector-disrupting mobile app or something like that? Duh, no. But it is more than pushing paper.

And with that post you proved that you're a tool way better than any of us could have ever hoped to.

I guess. I see it as doing my job as well as I can. The nice part about working at a firm is that they pay you to do that, and lots.

[Cogburn87]

Let's not kid ourselves. You're a transaction cost with shoes.

[gk101]

the work is fun in the sense that you're playing chess against other smart people.

"Checkmate," he lisped as he tagged the doc as "hot"

<shrug> I can't speak to litigation, it seems miserable to me. Corporate is different - there's real money at stake and you can see the rewards of your work fairly quickly. I once was given this not-important agreement to negotiate against another associate - which they do sometimes to give you practice - and got an indemnity snuck in there. Much to everyone's surprise, we all got sued in connection with the deal. Indemnity ended up saving the client a couple of million bucks. That was kind of cool - got a nice thank you and a bottle of scotch from them. Is it the heady rush of thinking up a sector-disrupting mobile app or something like that? Duh, no. But it is more than pushing paper.

lol

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Let's not kid ourselves. You're a transaction cost with shoes.

What is it you do that makes you feel like you never contribute?