Yale FIP 2014 Forum

[Anonymous User]

The general sense I get is that people who bid all NYC are doing very well, but that people who bid primarily in DC and California are having more trouble - especially younger students/people with thin resumes. Hard to say how much grades matter, if at all, but anecdotally I know of at least a couple people with all Hs who have struggled in DC and California. I do think CDO gave us an overly rosy view of how well YLS kids do in those markets, and of the extent to which pre-law work experience matters.

[Anonymous User]

The general sense I get is that people who bid all NYC are doing very well, but that people who bid primarily in DC and California are having more trouble - especially younger students/people with thin resumes. Hard to say how much grades matter, if at all, but anecdotally I know of at least a couple people with all Hs who have struggled in DC and California. I do think CDO gave us an overly rosy view of how well YLS kids do in those markets, and of the extent to which pre-law work experience matters.

CDO told us the economy is the same this year even though a few firms decreased the number of slots. Sigh.

[Anonymous User]

Is there any hope for callbacks at this point? Anyone hear of callbacks going out the week after FIP for ny firms last year?

As far as I am aware, the large NY firms gave their callbacks very quickly last year - generally within 2 or 3 days. Smaller NY firms varied, and firms outside NY/DC varied even more. I got one callback about two weeks after my screener for a firm with a small SA class in a secondary market.

- Reg.

[Anonymous User]

The general sense I get is that people who bid all NYC are doing very well, but that people who bid primarily in DC and California are having more trouble - especially younger students/people with thin resumes. Hard to say how much grades matter, if at all, but anecdotally I know of at least a couple people with all Hs who have struggled in DC and California. I do think CDO gave us an overly rosy view of how well YLS kids do in those markets, and of the extent to which pre-law work experience matters.

I definitely think CDO misled us to an extent, especially about the pre-law experience. The people I know (including me) who came straight through from less prestigious undergrads are doing pretty terribly. I also think they were overly coy about grades. Remember that line in the webinar where they said there are a "few firms" who would look for "some" H's, and gave Wachtell as the only example? Yeah, I'm pretty sure a lot of DC firms are looking for more than "some" H's and that would have been nice to know going in.

[Anonymous User]

V&E rejection -- after sending them an email of continued interest.

[Anonymous User]

The general sense I get is that people who bid all NYC are doing very well, but that people who bid primarily in DC and California are having more trouble - especially younger students/people with thin resumes. Hard to say how much grades matter, if at all, but anecdotally I know of at least a couple people with all Hs who have struggled in DC and California. I do think CDO gave us an overly rosy view of how well YLS kids do in those markets, and of the extent to which pre-law work experience matters.

I definitely think CDO misled us to an extent, especially about the pre-law experience. The people I know (including me) who came straight through from less prestigious undergrads are doing pretty terribly. I also think they were overly coy about grades. Remember that line in the webinar where they said there are a "few firms" who would look for "some" H's, and gave Wachtell as the only example? Yeah, I'm pretty sure a lot of DC firms are looking for more than "some" H's and that would have been nice to know going in.

Agreed with all of this.

[Anonymous User]

With straight P's, I converted close to 40% into callbacks. That includes multiple V10's, one of which was my top choice even before I got my grades.

Very happy to be at Yale right now.

For future reference and out of curiosity, which firms were more flexible about grades?

[Anonymous User]

A few things CDO could do in the future to make FIP much easier:

- Provide info on bidding cut-offs for firms (e.g., how low you have historically been able to bid a firm and still receive an interview). I don't understand why they don't make this info public, and I know lots of people who missed out on interviews with firms they wanted because they hadn't gotten the inside info that you need to bid W&C #1 to get an interview, or whatever.

- Provide info on the grade selectivity of firms. Clearly, some firms besides Wachtell take account of grades. This info is naturally going to be messy because everyone is taking different classes, and even some of the supposedly most selective firms seem willing to take people with Ps on their transcripts, but some data is better than nothing.

- Provide more honest and forthright info on the difficulty of different markets. The Bay Area, and to a lesser extent DC, seem to be materially tougher markets for YLS grads, and CDO was not very clear about this (except to say that California firms want ties).

- Online transcripts in PDF form. This one really boggles my mind. Doesn't every other school do this? The fact that the Registrar takes at least a day to print out a sheet of paper, even during FIP, is frustrating.

[Anonymous User]

For any future generations who may stumble upon this thread, I highly recommend looking at the tables in the back of the CDO FIP guide. There's data on bids, interviews, callbacks, and offers for every firm. Invaluable info for bidding strategy. And for tYLS'ers in the midst of callbacks, it's worthwhile to check the offer stats just so you know which callbacks are formalities and which are actually rigorous vetting processes.

Sorry to hear about the smaller market struggles. I find it ridiculous that California firms place so much emphasis on CA connections... I mean, the state seems like an objectively pleasant place to live. It's like they're trying to hoard the mild climate and beaches for themselves.

NYC has been very accessible for me so far (~75% callbacks), but I do get the impression that grades matter more than we've been led to believe. Which is also silly, since we all know how much of a crapshoot grades can be for us.

Good luck all - I'm sure we'll all make it out in good shape.

[Anonymous User]

With straight P's, I converted close to 40% into callbacks. That includes multiple V10's, one of which was my top choice even before I got my grades.

Very happy to be at Yale right now.

For future reference and out of curiosity, which firms were more flexible about grades?

I'm reluctant to out myself with specifics. But the CDO statistics on callback rates should give you a good idea of which firms are less selective. If a V10 offers only ~50% callbacks, then straight P's probably won't make the cut. If a firm offers callbacks to significantly more than ~50% of interviewees (e.g. ~70%), you may have a shot.

(Obviously, this only reflects my experience. If someone with straight P's got a callback at a firm with a 50% callback rate, please chime in. I do think, however, that my experience fit well with the existing data.)

I also noticed that my success correlated with the amount of time the interviewer spent studying my transcript at the beginning of the interview. Some interviewers spent 45 seconds on it (bad sign), others didn't even look (good sign). Even if firms do care about grades, you'd think they could be polite and hold off doing the grade check until after the interview. In fact, not looking at the grades might give the interviewer a less biased perception of the candidate. Whether or not you meet the cutoff, the interviewer is going to spend a half hour with you anyways.

Even though I'm sitting on a good number of callbacks, I agree with everyone else that many firms clearly do care about grades more than CDO lets on. I am a strong interviewer, and I got dinged at a lot of places despite having very good interviews. Which seems silly, because I literally only have *three* grades and the grading here is often arbitrary. But, whatever. I'm glad to have lots of good options.

[Anonymous User]

Steptoe DC and Winston & Strawn DC rejections

[Elston Gunn]

A few things CDO could do in the future to make FIP much easier:

- Provide info on bidding cut-offs for firms (e.g., how low you have historically been able to bid a firm and still receive an interview). I don't understand why they don't make this info public, and I know lots of people who missed out on interviews with firms they wanted because they hadn't gotten the inside info that you need to bid W&C #1 to get an interview, or whatever.

I'm not sure how useful this would actually be, as the bidding will shift every year in response to the data. I doubt it would give a much truer picture of what to expect than the interview slots/bid numbers, which they do provide.

- Provide info on the grade selectivity of firms. Clearly, some firms besides Wachtell take account of grades. This info is naturally going to be messy because everyone is taking different classes, and even some of the supposedly most selective firms seem willing to take people with Ps on their transcripts, but some data is better than nothing.

If this is possible, I agree it would be helpful. Definitely too much made of "grades don't matter" by CDO (and others).

- Provide more honest and forthright info on the difficulty of different markets. The Bay Area, and to a lesser extent DC, seem to be materially tougher markets for YLS grads, and CDO was not very clear about this (except to say that California firms want ties).

If you didn't know D.C. and, to a lesser extent, CA were tougher for *everyone* before FIP, then you must not have done any research. I suppose it's fair enough to rely on CDO until you have been given a reason not to, but they really are--as they are at almost every school--awful. There are more SA slots in NYC than the rest of the country combined, and probably 10X (or more) as many as there are in D.C. It's just the nature of the beast. It does look like some of the really big shops, where normally a ton of YLS grads go, have cut classes the last couple of years, though. So I can imagine it might not be as much of a breeze as before (not that is was ever truly a breeze). If you miss out on the Covs/Wilmers/W&Cs/Hogans and a couple others with decently big classes, you may have to settle for NYC.

PROTIP, for these people: If you have an offer at a giant NYC shop with a small D.C. satellite, see if they'll let you spend 5 weeks in D.C. and consider you for offers in both offices. I know at least S&C and Debevoise have done this in the past. I imagine DPW and possibly a few of the others (PW? Latham?) might do it too. Firms are often willing to be flexible with us. And while your ego may hurt just a tiny bit at not being at W&C or whatever, your career probably won't be any worse at S&C D.C. rather than Wilmer/W&C, etc.

One thing CDO could make clear 1L--and future people reading this thread should take heed of--is that you do kind of need a story for why you want D.C. Lots of your classmates will be former regulators or have the kind of creds where they don't sound ridiculous gunning for appellate groups, etc. If you think you might want D.C., SPEND YOUR 1L SUMMER IN D.C., at a minimum.

- Online transcripts in PDF form. This one really boggles my mind. Doesn't every other school do this? The fact that the Registrar takes at least a day to print out a sheet of paper, even during FIP, is frustrating.

Yes, it is utterly bizarre they still haven't done this. And for judges that want email apps, you need to order it, scan in a shitty copy, and THEN get a pdf. It's just weird that the registrar won't do something about it.

[Anonymous User]

.02 from someone who has had decent success in NYC - My prior experience is pretty weak, and I did not attend a top undergrad. But I do have good grades, and I think I interview pretty well. So it seems to me that experience / undergrad are secondary to grades / interview skills, but it may be different in more competitive markets.

[Elston Gunn]

.02 from someone who has had decent success in NYC - My prior experience is pretty weak, and I did not attend a top undergrad. But I do have good grades, and I think I interview pretty well. So it seems to me that experience / undergrad are secondary to grades / interview skills, but it may be different in more competitive markets.

Probably true in New York. I'm actually surprised people seem to think anyone but Wachtell, and maybe Cravath/S&C/Boies in NYC care about grades much at all.

[Anonymous User]

email ding from gdc DC. AT and DL.

[Anonymous User]

W&C rejection and rejection after a CB and silence after another CB (my friend who interviewed at the same time heard). Today has been awful.

[Anonymous User]

W&C rejection and rejection after a CB and silence after another CB (my friend who interviewed at the same time heard). Today has been awful.

Hang in there! I got rejected after my first two CBs last year, and completely freaked out about not getting anything. I really felt awful for a few days. Then my next two CBs both led to offers. You'll feel much better once you get an offer.

There's a kind of randomness to CBs -- don't think that because you got rejected by X firm, you'll only get offers from worse firms.

And in the unlikely event that you don't get an offer, you can still mass mail. I know someone who got something good that way last year. If you don't get the kind of offer you want this year, you can try again next year -- or after clerking.

- Reg.

[Anonymous User]

W&C rejection and rejection after a CB and silence after another CB (my friend who interviewed at the same time heard). Today has been awful.

Hang in there! I got rejected after my first two CBs last year, and completely freaked out about not getting anything. I really felt awful for a few days. Then my next two CBs both led to offers. You'll feel much better once you get an offer.

There's a kind of randomness to CBs -- don't think that because you got rejected by X firm, you'll only get offers from worse firms.

And in the unlikely event that you don't get an offer, you can still mass mail. I know someone who got something good that way last year. If you don't get the kind of offer you want this year, you can try again next year -- or after clerking.

- Reg.

I hope it works out -- I have 11 other callbacks, but three from firms I couldn't see myself at. If this doesn't work out, I'll have to pm you and talk to your friend.

-OP

[Elston Gunn]

W&C rejection and rejection after a CB and silence after another CB (my friend who interviewed at the same time heard). Today has been awful.

Hang in there! I got rejected after my first two CBs last year, and completely freaked out about not getting anything. I really felt awful for a few days. Then my next two CBs both led to offers. You'll feel much better once you get an offer.

There's a kind of randomness to CBs -- don't think that because you got rejected by X firm, you'll only get offers from worse firms.

And in the unlikely event that you don't get an offer, you can still mass mail. I know someone who got something good that way last year. If you don't get the kind of offer you want this year, you can try again next year -- or after clerking.

- Reg.

I hope it works out -- I have 11 other callbacks, but three from firms I couldn't see myself at. If this doesn't work out, I'll have to pm you and talk to your friend.

-OP

So you've got 8 remaining callbacks at places you'd be happy to work? You really have no reason to worry yet.

[Anonymous User]

Paul Weiss has given offers to people who interviewed earlier in the week.

[Anonymous User]

Paul Weiss has given offers to people who interviewed earlier in the week.

Did they hear back yesterday (Thursday)? Some people have mentioned that Thursday is when the PW hiring committee meets...

[Anonymous User]

Paul Weiss has given offers to people who interviewed earlier in the week.

Did they hear back yesterday (Thursday)? Some people have mentioned that Thursday is when the PW hiring committee meets...

I don't know. The only offers I know of went to people who interviewed earlier in the week.

[Anonymous User]

K&L Gates CB

[Anonymous User]

Paul Weiss has given offers to people who interviewed earlier in the week.

Did they hear back yesterday (Thursday)? Some people have mentioned that Thursday is when the PW hiring committee meets...

I don't know. The only offers I know of went to people who interviewed earlier in the week.

Anyone know whether Thursday interviewees hear same day or the following week?

[Anonymous User]

has anyone heard from williams & connolly, irell, or munger?