HLS EIP 2014 Forum

[Anonymous User]

More LA: 11 out of 19 LA accepts were Munger/Irell/Gibson. Each made around 10 offers. So plausible all were to the same folks. Kirkland and Latham each made 7 offers. Ugh. LA is looking dimmer every time I look back at the data.

[wert3813]

More LA: 11 out of 19 LA accepts were Munger/Irell/Gibson. Each made around 10 offers. So plausible all were to the same folks. Kirkland and Latham each made 7 offers. Ugh. LA is looking dimmer every time I look back at the data.

That Bryan Cave LA number though. (For those that don't wanna look 20 interviews, 1 cb.)

[Anonymous User]

I think this is bad advice. I don't know it's bad advice, but unless those at Covington who know this info pretty commonly share it with summers and/or associates (which happens at firms for time to time), there are very few people on Earth who know the quality of this advice. Those who have been through EIP only have one complete data set. Furthermore, even that doesn't allow you to do anything other than say I know firm X will offer a callback to someone with Y Hs. Even if you know your friend's grades, and I don't mean "good" or "decent" or knowing half their grades, and knew their various outcomes, you would have to know so many outcomes to have any sort of statistically significant knowledge.

That said, one can see how the EIP could lend people to thinking they know more than they do. It's natural to assume you didn't get interest because your grades were too low (especially because this may often be the case). It's natural to take a ton of different pieces of infomation from friends and feel like you have the whole picture.

Specifically regarding why I think the DC advice is bad advice, I met with OCS this semester and asked incredibly specific questions about the DC market. Based on that I took away that 4 H's should put every firm in DC in play except W&C. I was given the impression that perhaps 5-6 are preferred for Gibson and Covington, but that it was not required. I was straight told that if you had a couple H's and avoided LP's getting a DC firm job was very attainable. I asked at a firm like Venable or a firm like A&P, Sidley, or Akin. I was told the latter. If I had 4 H's I would go to the 2013 EIP data and I would bid the firms in DC that gave out the most offers last year other than W&C (this is going to correspond with biggest class sizes but if you want to be complete get both). That will give you the best chance to be successful.

Covington & Burling LLP
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton
Kirkland & Ellis
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher
5. WilmerHale
Wiley Rein
Steptoe & Johnson
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
Mayer Brown LLP
10. Latham & Watkins
Hogan Lovells
O'Melveny & Myers
Arnold & Porter
Jones Day
15. White & Case
King & Spalding
Ropes & Gray
Jenner & Block
Sullivan & Cromwell
20. Bingham McCutchen
Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman
Miller & Chevalier Chartered
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
Crowell & Moring
25. Allen & Overy
Baker Botts
Hughes Hubbard & Reed
Sidley Austin LLP
Goodwin Procter
30. Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP
Morrison & Foerster

TL/DR: Wert kinda went on a dueshebag rant tonight. It was poorly written and has so many typos. He claims if you ask OCS very specific questions you can get some decent information.

Original anon here. Most of what you posted is fair I think (you do want to bid on the bigger classes in DC -- I didn't mean to suggest otherwise). And obviously anecdotal evidence only goes so far. However, I had the same conversation with OCS last year. I had better grades than OP (6 or 7 Hs) and was warned that I should bid on NYC as a backup to DC.

I was also given the same(ish) preferred cutoffs for Covington so unless OP has something especially compelling on their resume, I still don't think they have a realistic shot at Covington. A lot of this boils down to who you talk to at OCS. The adviser I talked to was especially pessimistic about DC as a market and maybe my advice reflects that. Another thing I would recommend is that for all you to talk to a market advisor. My phone call with mine was actually surprisingly helpful last year and helped me learn a good deal about various firm reputations that I wouldn't have learned otherwise.

Lastly, I hope you don't order your bidlists as indicated above. You should be ordering using a mix of interviews granted divided by bids (heaviest weight given to this factor), firm preference, offers last year, and firm class size rather than who gave out the most offers last year. Off the top of my head, you'll probably miss A&P, Mofo, Baker Botts, Crowell, K&S, and White & Case with the present ordering.

And no worries at all, like I said, I think what you posted was fair and not douchey at all. Good luck!

[wert3813]

I think this is bad advice. I don't know it's bad advice, but unless those at Covington who know this info pretty commonly share it with summers and/or associates (which happens at firms for time to time), there are very few people on Earth who know the quality of this advice. Those who have been through EIP only have one complete data set. Furthermore, even that doesn't allow you to do anything other than say I know firm X will offer a callback to someone with Y Hs. Even if you know your friend's grades, and I don't mean "good" or "decent" or knowing half their grades, and knew their various outcomes, you would have to know so many outcomes to have any sort of statistically significant knowledge.

That said, one can see how the EIP could lend people to thinking they know more than they do. It's natural to assume you didn't get interest because your grades were too low (especially because this may often be the case). It's natural to take a ton of different pieces of infomation from friends and feel like you have the whole picture.

Specifically regarding why I think the DC advice is bad advice, I met with OCS this semester and asked incredibly specific questions about the DC market. Based on that I took away that 4 H's should put every firm in DC in play except W&C. I was given the impression that perhaps 5-6 are preferred for Gibson and Covington, but that it was not required. I was straight told that if you had a couple H's and avoided LP's getting a DC firm job was very attainable. I asked at a firm like Venable or a firm like A&P, Sidley, or Akin. I was told the latter. If I had 4 H's I would go to the 2013 EIP data and I would bid the firms in DC that gave out the most offers last year other than W&C (this is going to correspond with biggest class sizes but if you want to be complete get both). That will give you the best chance to be successful.

Covington & Burling LLP
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton
Kirkland & Ellis
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher
5. WilmerHale
Wiley Rein
Steptoe & Johnson
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
Mayer Brown LLP
10. Latham & Watkins
Hogan Lovells
O'Melveny & Myers
Arnold & Porter
Jones Day
15. White & Case
King & Spalding
Ropes & Gray
Jenner & Block
Sullivan & Cromwell
20. Bingham McCutchen
Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman
Miller & Chevalier Chartered
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
Crowell & Moring
25. Allen & Overy
Baker Botts
Hughes Hubbard & Reed
Sidley Austin LLP
Goodwin Procter
30. Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP
Morrison & Foerster

TL/DR: Wert kinda went on a dueshebag rant tonight. It was poorly written and has so many typos. He claims if you ask OCS very specific questions you can get some decent information.

Original anon here. Most of what you posted is fair I think (you do want to bid on the bigger classes in DC -- I didn't mean to suggest otherwise). And obviously anecdotal evidence only goes so far. However, I had the same conversation with OCS last year. I had better grades than OP (6 or 7 Hs) and was warned that I should bid on NYC as a backup to DC.

I was also given the same(ish) preferred cutoffs for Covington so unless OP has something especially compelling on their resume, I still don't think they have a realistic shot at Covington. A lot of this boils down to who you talk to at OCS. The adviser I talked to was especially pessimistic about DC as a market and maybe my advice reflects that. Another thing I would recommend is that for all you to talk to a market advisor. My phone call with mine was actually surprisingly helpful last year and helped me learn a good deal about various firm reputations that I wouldn't have learned otherwise.

Lastly, I hope you don't order your bidlists as indicated above. You should be ordering using a mix of interviews granted divided by bids (heaviest weight given to this factor), firm preference, offers last year, and firm class size rather than who gave out the most offers last year. Off the top of my head, you'll probably miss A&P, Mofo, Baker Botts, Crowell, K&S, and White & Case with the present ordering.

And no worries at all, like I said, I think what you posted was fair and not douchey at all. Good luck!

Yeah to be clear, that "bidlist" is not ordered.

[Anonymous User]

1 DS / 9 Ps, do I realistically have a shot at any T25 firms?

[Anonymous User]

Is DC even worth bidding on for someone who is dead median (3Hs)?

[Anonymous User]

I have 8 Ps, 1 H, and one grade still pending. Assuming I come out with 9 Ps, or with 2Hs, any advice for targeting only the New York market, with very little interest in litigation? I'm staring at a list of ~90 firms that are coming to EIP and have no idea how to start whittling it down.

[wert3813]

Is DC even worth bidding on for someone who is dead median (3Hs)?

Yes.

[Anonymous User]

are there any DC firms not worth bidding with absolutely no ties? grades are suddenly competitive (mix of DS and H, 4 Ps) after a meh fall and my tentative bidlist went out the window... fwiw, I can bid my entire home market with plenty of bids to spare.

[Anonymous User]

5H/5P and only want NYC. If I'm going all-in with NYC (so have plenty of bids to spend in the region), I suppose it's worthwhile to bid even at firms like WLRK? Prefer lit -- is applying to Quinn off the table? Is Quinn NYC less competitive than Quinn DC or LA?

No ties, no particularly relevant WE, etc. Okay-ish interview skills.

5 H's is above Quinn's cut. Perhaps by a fairly decent margin.

OP here. Thanks, that's promising to hear -- I was under the impression (based on verbal discussions people who usually know more than me tended to have around me) that Quinn was one of the "grade snobby" firms and had a hard cut as high as 7+.

[wert3813]

5H/5P and only want NYC. If I'm going all-in with NYC (so have plenty of bids to spend in the region), I suppose it's worthwhile to bid even at firms like WLRK? Prefer lit -- is applying to Quinn off the table? Is Quinn NYC less competitive than Quinn DC or LA?

No ties, no particularly relevant WE, etc. Okay-ish interview skills.

5 H's is above Quinn's cut. Perhaps by a fairly decent margin.

OP here. Thanks, that's promising to hear -- I was under the impression (based on verbal discussions people who usually know more than me tended to have around me) that Quinn was one of the "grade snobby" firms and had a hard cut as high as 7+.

see post above about nobody, including me knowing anything for certain but I would bet a couple fingers that's wrong even for the DC office, let alone nyc. 7 Hs 3 Ps is probably like top 20-25 percent range after 1L. Just the other day someone for NW said he got a cb at quinn from further back in the class than that.

Hell I'll just say it. I'd be surprised if there is a single firm in the country where 7 Hs would preclude someone from getting a job. Including susman boies etc.

[Anonymous User]

5H/5P and only want NYC. If I'm going all-in with NYC (so have plenty of bids to spend in the region), I suppose it's worthwhile to bid even at firms like WLRK? Prefer lit -- is applying to Quinn off the table? Is Quinn NYC less competitive than Quinn DC or LA?

No ties, no particularly relevant WE, etc. Okay-ish interview skills.

5 H's is above Quinn's cut. Perhaps by a fairly decent margin.

OP here. Thanks, that's promising to hear -- I was under the impression (based on verbal discussions people who usually know more than me tended to have around me) that Quinn was one of the "grade snobby" firms and had a hard cut as high as 7+.

see post above about nobody, including me knowing anything for certain but I would bet a couple fingers that's wrong even for the DC office, let alone nyc. 7 Hs 3 Ps is probably like top 20-25 percent range after 1L. Just the other day someone for NW said he got a cb at quinn from further back in the class than that.

Hell I'll just say it. I'd be surprised if there is a single firm in the country where 7 Hs would preclude someone from getting a job. Including susman boies etc.

Their website says "over 80%" of their associates graduated with honors. That's like a 3.6 at HLS (I guess 'cum laude' counts as 'honors' here), and I'm guessing most of that 20% figure are HLS/YLS students. So I think its safe to think they dip below 7H's for 1Ls, or else it'd be like 100% of their associates and not "over 80%" (or all their hires just started relaxing a lot in 2L and 3L).

[Anonymous User]

5H/5P and only want NYC. If I'm going all-in with NYC (so have plenty of bids to spend in the region), I suppose it's worthwhile to bid even at firms like WLRK? Prefer lit -- is applying to Quinn off the table? Is Quinn NYC less competitive than Quinn DC or LA?

No ties, no particularly relevant WE, etc. Okay-ish interview skills.

5 H's is above Quinn's cut. Perhaps by a fairly decent margin.

OP here. Thanks, that's promising to hear -- I was under the impression (based on verbal discussions people who usually know more than me tended to have around me) that Quinn was one of the "grade snobby" firms and had a hard cut as high as 7+.

see post above about nobody, including me knowing anything for certain but I would bet a couple fingers that's wrong even for the DC office, let alone nyc. 7 Hs 3 Ps is probably like top 20-25 percent range after 1L. Just the other day someone for NW said he got a cb at quinn from further back in the class than that.

Hell I'll just say it. I'd be surprised if there is a single firm in the country where 7 Hs would preclude someone from getting a job. Including susman boies etc.

This is definitely too optimistic. I know that 7Hs would likely preclude you from Susman at least. A partner there told me directly that 6Hs did not meet their grade cutoff. Of course, there might be the rare exception.

I don't think Quinn is too grade-selective from HLS, but I don't know where the cutoff would be. I agree that 7Hs is likely well above Quinn's HLS cutoff.

[wert3813]

This is definitely too optimistic. I know that 7Hs would likely preclude you from Susman at least. A partner there told me directly that 6Hs did not meet their grade cutoff. Of course, there might be the rare exception.

I don't think Quinn is too grade-selective from HLS, but I don't know where the cutoff would be. I agree that 7Hs is likely well above Quinn's HLS cutoff.

It wouldn't need to be a rare exception for someone with 7 Hs to get a CB because that's more than 6 right? Regardless, information like the bolded is helpful, thanks.

[Anonymous User]

This is definitely too optimistic. I know that 7Hs would likely preclude you from Susman at least. A partner there told me directly that 6Hs did not meet their grade cutoff. Of course, there might be the rare exception.

I don't think Quinn is too grade-selective from HLS, but I don't know where the cutoff would be. I agree that 7Hs is likely well above Quinn's HLS cutoff.

It wouldn't need to be a rare exception for someone with 7 Hs to get a CB because that's more than 6 right? Regardless, information like the bolded is helpful, thanks.

Sorry, my original post was unclear. The statement was something along the lines of, "6Hs is definitely not going to make our grade cutoff." From that I was inferring that 6Hs wasn't very close, and that 7Hs was probably about the same. Maybe I stated it a little strong, given that I only know that 6Hs is below the cutoff, and it might be that the cutoff is in between 6 and 7. I was kind of reading between the lines of the statement.

Edit: To be clear, this post is about Susman.

[094320]

..

[Anonymous User]

I know someone at Quinn who def. was below that "cutoff".

Sorry if I was unclear. The post was about Susman.

[Anonymous User]

Public service announcement for those bidding on DC: interviews matter a lot, no matter what your grades are. I had very good 1L grades (3 DSs, 5 Hs, and 2 Ps) and still struck out in DC. I was a pretty bad interviewer at the time and can be a little awkward, although I eventually improved and ended up getting DC after my clerkship.

My advice to anyone focusing on DC is to apply to a couple of the NY firms that care only about grades and make one of those callbacks your first one. That way, you'll have an offer in hand, and you can cancel your other NY interviews and focus on DC for the rest of the callback period. Also, OCS practice interviews are your friend. If you're at all concerned about your interviewing, do several of them before EIP starts. You really have to push them to give you honest feedback, and some of the advisors are much better than others.

[Anonymous User]

My advice to anyone focusing on DC is to apply to a couple of the NY firms that care only about grades and make one of those callbacks your first one. That way, you'll have an offer in hand, and you can cancel your other NY interviews and focus on DC for the rest of the callback period. Also, OCS practice interviews are your friend. If you're at all concerned about your interviewing, do several of them before EIP starts. You really have to push them to give you honest feedback, and some of the advisors are much better than others.

What are a few NY firms that only care about good grades? V5? In a similar position as you grade-wise and want to focus on DC firms but am afraid of striking out because I'm K-JD, not tons of extra-currics, etc.

[Anonymous User]

My advice to anyone focusing on DC is to apply to a couple of the NY firms that care only about grades and make one of those callbacks your first one. That way, you'll have an offer in hand, and you can cancel your other NY interviews and focus on DC for the rest of the callback period. Also, OCS practice interviews are your friend. If you're at all concerned about your interviewing, do several of them before EIP starts. You really have to push them to give you honest feedback, and some of the advisors are much better than others.

What are a few NY firms that only care about good grades? V5? In a similar position as you grade-wise and want to focus on DC firms but am afraid of striking out because I'm K-JD, not tons of extra-currics, etc.

The two I was thinking of are Quinn and Sullcrom. Look at the spreadsheets on the OCS website. There are a few firms that give offers to almost everyone who does callbacks.

[CicerBRo]

.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all! I'm dead median at 3H/7P (or at least, the consensus says that's median). My preferred markets are Texas or Boston. I would love to avoid NYC if possible. It's not the best market for those with children. I have no prior ties to Boston, but have made ties to the area since moving here (e.g., my children are attending school here, my spouse has made friends here, etc.). I have never lived in Texas, but I have a lot of family who do live in Texas (brother, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparent).

Based on the above, can anyone provide some insight as to how I should be shaping my bid list? I don't care about prestige, I care about finding a job that will service my loans and put my kids in a good public school. I would gladly welcome whatever advice folks can offer.

Thanks!

[094320]

..

[Anonymous User]

On the subject of ties, how sensitive are NYC firms to them? I often hear that NYC does not care about ties — but what if my resume screams "not NYC?" Lifelong ties to other coast, summer job there, etc, but I want to work on the east coast after graduation. Reason for wanting east coast is change of scenery, so not a particularly substantive reason.

Will my resume hold me back, and if yes, what can I say to persuade NYC interviewers that I am interested in the city in which their firms are located?

[wert3813]

Hi all! I'm dead median at 3H/7P (or at least, the consensus says that's median). My preferred markets are Texas or Boston. I would love to avoid NYC if possible. It's not the best market for those with children. I have no prior ties to Boston, but have made ties to the area since moving here (e.g., my children are attending school here, my spouse has made friends here, etc.). I have never lived in Texas, but I have a lot of family who do live in Texas (brother, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparent).

Based on the above, can anyone provide some insight as to how I should be shaping my bid list? I don't care about prestige, I care about finding a job that will service my loans and put my kids in a good public school. I would gladly welcome whatever advice folks can offer.

Thanks!

If you're not White, consider participating in the Boston Job Fair: http://www.thebostonlawyersgroup.com/events/
Asians count.

You're in a different boat from most applicants re the ties idea re: Boston--NYC not being cost-effective (don't slam it in terms of actual quality of life, you never know what interviewer was raised in NYC, but all are going to sympathize with the overly expensive idea) for children is a pretty convincing reason to pick Boston instead, esp. if they're already enrolled in Boston schools and you can say things "I don't want to uproot my children".

Do a mix of Boston, Texas, and a little bit of NYC. Not too much NYC, but just in case. Ask OCS for help in picking out which NYC firms. For Boston, obviously do Ropes, Wilmer, Bingham, and Goodwin. Then throw in a couple other ones. Try to network over the summer. I expect you'll be fine in Boston.

PM doublechecks about Texas. But he's in the past been adamant that someone like you should be able to get Texas, particularly Houston.