2014 University of Virginia OGI Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Same poster you're arguing with. I agree with 2. In fact, it would probably be more likely the lottery callback gets an offer, because grades don't really matter at that stage so statistically the lottery CB is a more successful interviewer than the preselect CB. The CB information is false on preselects and lottery having = chances at a CB. It does happen all the time, but it's not equal. Often, the CB is yours to lose with a preselect. CSO does a great job with really trying to get you interviews with firms you have no preselect/lottery to through write in's, and you're actually going to be fresh on the interviewer's mind so try those.

I wasn't trying to be defeatist. My point is there are a lot of people with bad grades who have big law, and some people with good grades that don't. I know people from both groups. My point was only to say everyone should be working, and there's no such thing as safe. Really, think about it like sports. The team that wins the off season doesn't always win the season. Grades are just the off season. Yes, the Rays and Athletics will always be disadvantaged relative to the Yankees, but the Yankees aren't always going to place in front of them.

[Anonymous User]

3.29 here, does anyone have any information on the nova/richmond firms? Many of them aren't on vault/chambers. Are these firms possibly obtainable for me if I have ties? Thanks

Recent grad here, had a 3.3 at the end of 1L and applied to the Richmond firms with ties and these are my impressions. Ended up with a couple callbacks, no offers, but was still on hold at 1 when I accepted an offer in another market.

Hunton: I think normally looks for people with better grades. Put it in your top 10 if you want a shot when you're bidding. I put all the Richmond firms at the bottom of the bidlist and then missed out on them b/c they didn't pre-select me and didn't take my special request.

McGuire: I also think normally looks for people with better grades. I got a pre-select from them, but only because they had 3 interview rooms and interviewed like 60 people. Didn't get a callback.

Troutman/Williams Mullen/LeClair/Hirschler/Sands Anderson/McCandlish Holton/Spotts Fain: Had better luck here and got a couple callbacks so they are definitely possible if you interview well. Problem is none of those firms keeps a summer class of more than like 3-4 people at most so there is still stiff competition from everyone else at UVA as well as top of class W&M, W&L, and U of R people. I'd say there are probably no more than 25 SA spots in Richmond in total, which makes it not that easy to grab one.

thanks for the great info, do you have any experience with the nova firms? They've all got tiny class sizes (1-3) so im assuming it would be a waste to bid on them for ogi with a 3.29

Re: Richmond market. Based on personal interview experience and who I know summering/working at these firms:

Hunton: need top grades. Top 1/3 to be safe. Would be very surprised if they dipped below median. Tend to recruit a mix of work hard/play even harder types from UVA as well as a couple older people who are looking to settle down.

McGuire: also need top grades. I think McGuire might land on average higher gpas from UVA. But their class is also smaller so on the whole maybe more difficult to break into. The people I know there this year are really really smart but also kind of introverted. Idk how much that speaks to McGuire overall though.

Troutman: Need good grades but is probably more fit-oriented than Hunton and McGuire once you get above whatever their minimum is. If you've got a good personality and interviewing skills I bet you could land a lottery CB from them.

williams mullen: lesser known and definitely a niche kind of firm personality-wise. Perfect for some people but they kind of seem to fly under the radar. Grade threshold lower.

Sorry can't speak to the others. Bottom line is that the Richmond firms are far more competitive than people think, especially the big 3. I didn't end up in Richmond for personal reasons but I had a really good impression from all the firms.

[Anonymous User]

3.3 Recent grad here. In my experience NOVA firms were kind of tough to bid on. The major players that have regular summer classes and hire from UVA regularly are Cooley, hogan lovells and Morrison Foerster. For all of the rest you should check NALP to make sure that they still do regular summer classes because many of them are small outposts. The thing you should know about the NOVA firms is that they primarily focus on corporate work. They are essentially the corporate arms of the D.C. office b/c it makes more sense for them to be headquartered near Tysons Corner/McLean/Reston where a lot of corporate offices are.

I think it's generally a good idea to put firms with larger class sizes higher up and the NOVA firms as you said all have small summer classes. The issue is though that many of the kids bidding on D.C., many of whom have very good grades, also throw the NOVA firms at the bottom of their bidlist b/c they think it's basically the same thing as D.C. (sometimes without even realizing that those offices do pretty much all corporate), and so the only way you have a good chance of getting an interview w/o putting them in your top 10 is if they are running multiple interview rooms. If they're only running 1 interview room, everyone they pre-select is likely to have a 3.4+. I personally put them at the bottom of the bidlist with the Richmond firms because I didn't think that many people would bid them and got only 1 interview and 0 callbacks.

There are a few stand-alone NOVA firms, though, that come to OGI like Watt Tieder (construction law) and Blankingship Keith that you should be able to get an interview with if you bid them.

3.29 here, does anyone have any information on the nova/richmond firms? Many of them aren't on vault/chambers. Are these firms possibly obtainable for me if I have ties? Thanks

Recent grad here, had a 3.3 at the end of 1L and applied to the Richmond firms with ties and these are my impressions. Ended up with a couple callbacks, no offers, but was still on hold at 1 when I accepted an offer in another market.

Hunton: I think normally looks for people with better grades. Put it in your top 10 if you want a shot when you're bidding. I put all the Richmond firms at the bottom of the bidlist and then missed out on them b/c they didn't pre-select me and didn't take my special request.

McGuire: I also think normally looks for people with better grades. I got a pre-select from them, but only because they had 3 interview rooms and interviewed like 60 people. Didn't get a callback.

Troutman/Williams Mullen/LeClair/Hirschler/Sands Anderson/McCandlish Holton/Spotts Fain: Had better luck here and got a couple callbacks so they are definitely possible if you interview well. Problem is none of those firms keeps a summer class of more than like 3-4 people at most so there is still stiff competition from everyone else at UVA as well as top of class W&M, W&L, and U of R people. I'd say there are probably no more than 25 SA spots in Richmond in total, which makes it not that easy to grab one.

thanks for the great info, do you have any experience with the nova firms? They've all got tiny class sizes (1-3) so im assuming it would be a waste to bid on them for ogi with a 3.29

Re: Richmond market. Based on personal interview experience and who I know summering/working at these firms:

Hunton: need top grades. Top 1/3 to be safe. Would be very surprised if they dipped below median. Tend to recruit a mix of work hard/play even harder types from UVA as well as a couple older people who are looking to settle down.

McGuire: also need top grades. I think McGuire might land on average higher gpas from UVA. But their class is also smaller so on the whole maybe more difficult to break into. The people I know there this year are really really smart but also kind of introverted. Idk how much that speaks to McGuire overall though.

Troutman: Need good grades but is probably more fit-oriented than Hunton and McGuire once you get above whatever their minimum is. If you've got a good personality and interviewing skills I bet you could land a lottery CB from them.

Williams Mullen: lesser known and definitely a niche kind of firm personality-wise. Perfect for some people but they kind of seem to fly under the radar. Grade threshold lower.

Sorry can't speak to the others. Bottom line is that the Richmond firms are far more competitive than people think, especially the big 3. I didn't end up in Richmond for personal reasons but I had a really good impression from all the firms.

[Anonymous User]

Can any 2Ls or 3Ls speak on how low Wiley Rein and Cleary DC will go into the class? I'm sitting at a low 3.6 and wondering if it would be smart to use high bids on them

[raft14969]

Can any 2Ls or 3Ls speak on how low Wiley Rein and Cleary DC will go into the class? I'm sitting at a low 3.6 and wondering if it would be smart to use high bids on them

That's fine for Wiley, but remember they have small summer classes. No info on Cleary DC though.

[kingjones59]

What is the conventional wisdom on using something for LRW for your writing sample? Anyone have any experiences that might suggest using such can have a negative impact? Nothing I did this summer is as polished/complete as what I did in LRW. Looks like only 15/50 of my bids ask for it.

[pertristis]

What is the conventional wisdom on using something for LRW for your writing sample? Anyone have any experiences that might suggest using such can have a negative impact? Nothing I did this summer is as polished/complete as what I did in LRW. Looks like only 15/50 of my bids ask for it.

I used part of my LRW brief two years ago.

Generally, it's fine, especially if you earned an award for it.

[pertristis]

What is the conventional wisdom on using something for LRW for your writing sample? Anyone have any experiences that might suggest using such can have a negative impact? Nothing I did this summer is as polished/complete as what I did in LRW. Looks like only 15/50 of my bids ask for it.

I used part of my LRW brief two years ago.

Generally, it's fine, especially if you earned an award for it.

I realized that I said that without thinking about what you might be doing your 1L summer. Everything I had from my 1L summer was academic-y (and progressive), and I thought my LRW piece worked better. Your experience may differ.

[Br3v]

Just grapevine but I have always heard that using LRW was fine.

[CvilleRunner]

What is the conventional wisdom on using something for LRW for your writing sample? Anyone have any experiences that might suggest using such can have a negative impact? Nothing I did this summer is as polished/complete as what I did in LRW. Looks like only 15/50 of my bids ask for it.

I met with Career Services and asked them if they had thoughts about if it mattered if I used the persuasive brief or the brief from the fall and they said that it doesn't matter what you use as long as it shows your "best legal analysis" and doesn't have any typos.

[Yardbird]

Anyone care to chime in on using an opinion you drafted as a writing sample (with the judge's permission of course). I won't have any bench memos, but I'll have 7-8 opinions that I worked on solo by summer's end. Is it worth even asking the judge, or should I just go with my LRW memo?

[Br3v]

In general reading TLS can often cause me to over think something, but this time especially.

I was under the impression that probably nobody would even read a writing sample let alone care what it was about?

[5ky]

In general reading TLS can often cause me to over think something, but this time especially.

I was under the impression that probably nobody would even read a writing sample let alone care what it was about?

I thought a surprising number of firms asked for one, but no, i dont' think they are important

[Anonymous User]

Sitting at a 2.9 aka near-bottom of class. Will any OGI-participating firms dip this low?

[North]

Sitting at a 2.9 aka near-bottom of class. Will any OGI-participating firms dip this low?

Welcome bro. I don't have an answer, but be sure to stick around ITT. We've got enough above-median folks.

[Anonymous User]

I was at a 3.0 flat end of 1L (rising 3L). Hustle hard and hustle now. Continuously. It's an extremely uphill battle but if you work at it you'll be ok. Ended up with a handful of offers in major market at market salary. But I barely relied on ogi since I knew there was such little chance.

[playpowerball]

I was at a 3.0 flat end of 1L (rising 3L). Hustle hard and hustle now. Continuously. It's an extremely uphill battle but if you work at it you'll be ok. Ended up with a handful of offers in major market at market salary. But I barely relied on ogi since I knew there was such little chance.

It seems everyone on TLS/elsewhere is saying to mass mail towards the middle/end of july, so what should we be doing now?

[Anonymous User]

Mass mail local/smaller places in next 2 weeks +. Now do as many informational interviews as you can. Alumni of college or law school and use any connection to just meet as many people.

[Anonymous User]

Did you ever have to explain your grades?

[Anonymous User]

Only a few times. I didn't make much improvement from second semester. Best I can say is to not be ashamed. It is what it is. You tried your best and you realized or at least seeking to realize what went wrong. And hopefully your summer job is helping you tune your skills

[Anonymous User]

In general reading TLS can often cause me to over think something, but this time especially.

I was under the impression that probably nobody would even read a writing sample let alone care what it was about?

Anyone who has been through the process ever had to submit 2 writing samples to a firm? One firm I was researching indicated that they required 2 on one part of their website, but at another part it said just one was fine. I was under pretty much the same impression Br3v was, so the idea of having to get 2 writing samples together caught me off guard.

[daleearnhardt123]

In general reading TLS can often cause me to over think something, but this time especially.

I was under the impression that probably nobody would even read a writing sample let alone care what it was about?

Anyone who has been through the process ever had to submit 2 writing samples to a firm? One firm I was researching indicated that they required 2 on one part of their website, but at another part it said just one was fine. I was under pretty much the same impression Br3v was, so the idea of having to get 2 writing samples together caught me off guard.

Are you sure it was for a SA position? It's unlikely a firm would want 2 writing samples from a rising 2L, considering that even your first writing sample is likely to be flaming excrement.

[UVAIce]

My experience last year is that the most a firm will ask for is as follows:

Resume
Cover Letter
Writing Sample(1)
Undergrad Transcript
References

The vast majority will simply require a resume, cover letter, and one writing sample.

I do know that Cleary and Covington both require references and actually check them. Don't sweat which firms want what yet. If you put together copies of the above documents you should be set for every firm that comes to OGI.

As a side note, I'm sure that Career Services has already harped on this, but don't be the person who applies and interviews with a firm that is only patent litigation or only tax law when you don't have the desire (or credentials) to practice in those fields.

[Anonymous User]

Sitting at a 2.9 aka near-bottom of class. Will any OGI-participating firms dip this low?

Welcome bro. I don't have an answer, but be sure to stick around ITT. We've got enough above-median folks.

As a rising 2L here I can't vouch for the advice in the book, but I picked up a copy of "Guerrilla Tactics for Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams" and there is a chapter designed for people whose grades are not where they want them and what to do. There are also a lot of chapters on informational interviewing, Dealing with Rejection, resumes, how to find jobs outside OGI.

Like I said, I can't speak to how helpful the advice is necessarily, but so far I've found it helpful in setting up some informational interviews and if nothing else it is kind of like a safety blanket because it feels like I have one other place to refer to.

Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

Only a few times. I didn't make much improvement from second semester. Best I can say is to not be ashamed. It is what it is. You tried your best and you realized or at least seeking to realize what went wrong. And hopefully your summer job is helping you tune your skills

Thanks for this, anyone else have advice on "explaining" a low GPA or low grades? What to do/what not to do?