Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[NYSprague]

Just do ruin a guy's life because he didn't wear the right shoes. Totally reasonable

This is why we are warning SAs. Reasonable isn't the issue. This is a summer long job interview and it all matters. But don't get overwhelmed, it isn't hard to figure out.

(The real problem wasn't the shoes. Lack of social awareness represented by the stupid outfit choice was the problem. If kid had been a genius he might have been saved anyway.)

[UnicornHunter]

Just do ruin a guy's life because he didn't wear the right shoes. Totally reasonable

Ever seen the "What to wear at OCI" thread? A huge premium is put on wearing the right shoes (clothes, etc...) in the right circumstances. If it's fair to not give someone a callback because they wore boat shoes to a callback, it's fair to non offer someone who wore oxfords with shorts to a yacht club. That's a pretty a basic level of attention to detail, it's not like they fired him because his ties didn't match or something like that.

[BaiAilian2013]

I think blowing deadlines is the easiest trap for a non-moron to fall into. Someone in my class was no offered for, as far as any of us know, blowing self-imposed deadlines ("I'll get it to you by Friday"). He was a nice guy, and clever, and I am confident he would have treated real deadlines differently. Which is a lesson: as a summer, many of your deadlines will be "fake" deadlines, but they are REAL TO YOU, because they are the only way the firm has to measure your response to real deadlines. It's an imperfect measure, but it's their only available measure.

[09042014]

Just do ruin a guy's life because he didn't wear the right shoes. Totally reasonable

Ever seen the "What to wear at OCI" thread? A huge premium is put on wearing the right shoes (clothes, etc...) in the right circumstances. If it's fair to not give someone a callback because they wore boat shoes to a callback, it's fair to non offer someone who wore oxfords with shorts to a yacht club. That's a pretty a basic level of attention to detail, it's not like they fired him because his ties didn't match or something like that.

90% of that is sperglords being spergish. Dress nicely and you'll be fine.

[rickgrimes69]

Dressing appropriately for the occasion is covered in "How Not to Fuck Up 101." We're not talking about wearing wingtips with a suit here; anybody with any common sense should realize Oxfords with shorts would look ridiculous, especially after being given explicit instructions by those in the know.

Also, who doesn't know what boat shoes are? I've never been on anything larger than a speedboat and even I own a pair.

[ChardPennington]

I heard about a summer who motor boated a chick without putting on boat shoes first

[rad lulz]

.

[84651846190]

Dressing appropriately for the occasion is covered in "How Not to Fuck Up 101." We're not talking about wearing wingtips with a suit here; anybody with any common sense should realize Oxfords with shorts would look ridiculous, especially after being given explicit instructions by those in the know.

Also, who doesn't know what boat shoes are? I've never been on anything larger than a speedboat and even I own a pair.

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of Americans have never been on a boat (especially if you rule out giant cruise liners). Just sayin.

[84651846190]

I heard about a summer who motor boated a chick without putting on boat shoes first

How did he maintain traction

176

[Orlandipo]

empty out entire tray of those one-serving coffee packs in lounge when you leave for the day. Multiple times.

[MinEMorris]

Before I summered, I read just about every thread like this I could find on google. I had a lot of anxiety about the SA experience and the prospect of a no offer. For what it's worth, the following are my thoughts after having actually gone through a 2L SA. (Most of us received offers, but not all.)

(1) Worry less about people liking you and worry more about them not hating you. You don't have to be funny or charming, and you don't have to tell cool stories. Just don't be obnoxious or insensitive, and don't spend too much time talking about yourself. FWIW, my experience is that the easiest way to make a good impression on someone is by focusing on him/her, usually by asking thoughtful questions and listening. And when s/he asks you questions, keep it short and easy. So, for example, if someone asks you, "how have you liked law school?" I think that a perfectly acceptable answer is something like "Oh, it's been alright. My classmates are nice, and I like my professors, but I've had a couple of classes that I had a hard time getting excited about. How was your law school experience?" Whereas a response like "It's been sooo crazy busy. I'm on Space Law journal, I'm doing moot court, and last semester I was taking like 18 credits. I was so overwhelmed. I thought about dropping one of my classes, but then my professor told me..." strikes me as being really on the wrong track.

(2) You don't have to be comfortable or know what you're doing. A good example was the yacht story told in this thread. You are not in no offer territory just because schmoozing on a boat with a bunch of country club folk is unfamiliar to you and uncomfortable. In fact, what usually turns those situations into no-offer stories is people trying to act like it's comfortable and familiar to them. Just be humble, try to follow the lead of those who obviously know what they are doing, be honest about what you do and don't know, and if you find yourself really stuck, politely ask someone for guidance. I don't think the guy would deserve a no-offer just for his yacht-fashion faux pau, but it's obvious to me that he should've consulted people and taken their advice if he didn't know what appropriate attire would be.

(3) Don't get drunk (though it's fine to drink) and don't hook up with anyone at the firm or in your summer class. That second part is a little more controversial, but I personally think it's solid advice. Hooking up with office-related people simply carries a significant risk of sour relationships and negative attention. If you're really smitten with someone, pursue it after you get an offer.

(4) Go to most firm events, and always be on time for everything.

(5) Similar to (1), worry more about not fucking up your work product than blowing your assigning attorneys away. There's more than one story of a summer associate getting him or herself in a bad spot because he or she tried too hard to impress. (See, e.g., the story in this thread about the SA taking on all the summer assignments.) Just follow instructions, do thorough research, make sure your cites are accurate, proofread everything you write, and get your work in on time. If you think there's a real possibility that you might not meet a deadline, let your assigning attorney know immediately. If you aren't sure how to go about your assignment or what form your work product should take, ask your assigning attorney.

(6) Presume that you should take notes at every meeting. Some SAs in my class were asked to summarize meetings after they finished despite no forewarning that they should take notes.

(7) Be courteous and respectful to everyone you meet. Give everyone you speak with your interest and attention. And when I say everyone, I mean everyone--paralegals, doormen, taxi drivers, hotel concierges, other summer associates, whoever.

(8) Read every e-mail you write at least twice before sending it out, think twice before making a joke in writing, and always double check who the addressees are.

That's all I can think of for now. Hope that helps someone. Good luck in your summers.

[Nebby]

Buy the fucking shoes.

[Dredd_2017]

That is really helpful MinEMorris, much more so than a page long tangent on the merits of boat shoes. Thanks!

I heard about a summer who motor boated a chick without putting on boat shoes first

How did he maintain traction

180

[Anonymous User]

If we're talking about work tips (i.e., non of this is no offer stuff, but is the diff between making associates happy and having them roll their eyes)

1) dont ask questions piecemeal. Drives everyone nuts. Nothing wrong with questions, but collect them and then swing by my office when you have a bunch we can knock out in one quick meeting.

2) don't spin your wheels. If you're totally stumped or confused, tell whoever is supervising you. Don't bang your head against the computer for 2 days.

3) don't make emails excessively formal. Sometimes a formal email is expected. If I give you a research assignment and 3 days to do it, the email response should be VERY clean and well written. But if I call you at 4 and say " hey fire drill here can you check this for us ASAP?" then speed is paramount and be short and quick and not "dear x, the law of fiduciary duty was first promulgated in 1743 by The Lord Justice . . . "

4) I have never seen a summer memo or email that wasn't too long. YOUR EMAIL IS TOO LONG. ALWAYS. Take whatever your LS instincts tell you, and make it 50% shorter. Especially if working with corporate folks. Short, clean, to the point.

5) If your memo or email cites to a case or article, then that case or article should be attached to your email.

6) do not work in track changes unless specifically instructed to do so. Old partners get to work in track changes. You do not, generally.

7) When sending me a doc past 8PM, if you know I am on an iPad it's a nice gesture to send a PDF as well. Not necessary but often appreciated. Blacklines should always be in PDF at all hours unless instructed otherwise.

particulaly in corporate practice, familiarize yourself with how to run blacklines (and other seemingly stupid tech stuff that has a learning curve) as soon as possible. Sooner you do that, sooner I can use you on my team as more than decoration. I don't want you having your first experience with our bug-ridden blacklining program at 11:30pm when the documents need to get out.

9) if I give you a precedent to work from for your assignment, save it as the first version of the document so you can always blackline to it. Do not enter any changes in that first version; save your changes as a new version. This tip will make way more sense once you've dealt with firm document management systems.

10). Take copious notes on any call or internal meeting you're invited to sit in on, unless instructed OK not to. But ask first before taking notes if external in person meeting, bc sometimes it can send wrong impression to other parties at meeting.

11) always put a draft line and a document ID footer on every document you draft. It should be the first thing you do. People will grumble if you forget a draft line. It's like not zipping your fly.

[Anonymous User]

I forgot one more super important one. You need to learn etiquette of "To" lines and "CC" lines at your firm. At my shop, if you email a partner and CC me, that means I have reviewed and signed off on your work. If you CC me and I never reviewed, I'm going to go absolutely ballistic! It means I need to email the partner to let them know I haven't reviewed, half the time the partner won't read that email anyways and will come to my office to ask why I signed off on such a crappy memo, etc.

Similarly, at my firm partners always go before associates in address lines. There are partners, and let us stipulate, they are deuchebags, who will be offended - and may let you know they are offended! - if you put the associate name first.

These rules are NOT general to all firms, but the point is that "To" and "CC" lines matter for way more than getting the email to the right person, so always check with your supervising associate for the correct distribution list and who goes into what box and in what order, at least until you've got the rules down. Hell, I've been here for 4 years and I STILL sometimes ask partners who should be CCed on emails to clients when it's unclear (say, we're doing an assignment, but do I also CC the relationship partner who referred the client to our group?) And everyone understands why I ask, because it counts.

[09042014]

I forgot one more super important one. You need to learn etiquette of "To" lines and "CC" lines at your firm. At my shop, if you email a partner and CC me, that means I have reviewed and signed off on your work. If you CC me and I never reviewed, I'm going to go absolutely ballistic! It means I need to email the partner to let them know I haven't reviewed, half the time the partner won't read that email anyways and will come to my office to ask why I signed off on such a crappy memo, etc.

Similarly, at my firm partners always go before associates in address lines. There are partners, and let us stipulate, they are deuchebags, who will be offended - and may let you know they are offended! - if you put the associate name first.

These rules are NOT general to all firms, but the point is that "To" and "CC" lines matter for way more than getting the email to the right person, so always check with your supervising associate for the correct distribution list and who goes into what box and in what order, at least until you've got the rules down. Hell, I've been here for 4 years and I STILL sometimes ask partners who should be CCed on emails when it's unclear. And everyone understands why I do that, because it counts.

Lol

[Anonymous User]

I forgot one more super important one. You need to learn etiquette of "To" lines and "CC" lines at your firm. At my shop, if you email a partner and CC me, that means I have reviewed and signed off on your work. If you CC me and I never reviewed, I'm going to go absolutely ballistic! It means I need to email the partner to let them know I haven't reviewed, half the time the partner won't read that email anyways and will come to my office to ask why I signed off on such a crappy memo, etc.

Similarly, at my firm partners always go before associates in address lines. There are partners, and let us stipulate, they are deuchebags, who will be offended - and may let you know they are offended! - if you put the associate name first.

These rules are NOT general to all firms, but the point is that "To" and "CC" lines matter for way more than getting the email to the right person, so always check with your supervising associate for the correct distribution list and who goes into what box and in what order, at least until you've got the rules down. Hell, I've been here for 4 years and I STILL sometimes ask partners who should be CCed on emails when it's unclear. And everyone understands why I do that, because it counts.

Lol

Look, man, no argument from me that this is the stupidest shit in the world and makes me want to put an ice pick through my eye sometimes. But the game is the game.

[bjsesq]

I forgot one more super important one. You need to learn etiquette of "To" lines and "CC" lines at your firm. At my shop, if you email a partner and CC me, that means I have reviewed and signed off on your work. If you CC me and I never reviewed, I'm going to go absolutely ballistic! It means I need to email the partner to let them know I haven't reviewed, half the time the partner won't read that email anyways and will come to my office to ask why I signed off on such a crappy memo, etc.

Similarly, at my firm partners always go before associates in address lines. There are partners, and let us stipulate, they are deuchebags, who will be offended - and may let you know they are offended! - if you put the associate name first.

These rules are NOT general to all firms, but the point is that "To" and "CC" lines matter for way more than getting the email to the right person, so always check with your supervising associate for the correct distribution list and who goes into what box and in what order, at least until you've got the rules down. Hell, I've been here for 4 years and I STILL sometimes ask partners who should be CCed on emails to clients when it's unclear (say, we're doing an assignment, but do I also CC the relationship partner who referred the client to our group?) And everyone understands why I ask, because it counts.

That seems like a great use of time.

[rad lulz]

I forgot one more super important one. You need to learn etiquette of "To" lines and "CC" lines at your firm. At my shop, if you email a partner and CC me, that means I have reviewed and signed off on your work. If you CC me and I never reviewed, I'm going to go absolutely ballistic! It means I need to email the partner to let them know I haven't reviewed, half the time the partner won't read that email anyways and will come to my office to ask why I signed off on such a crappy memo, etc.

Similarly, at my firm partners always go before associates in address lines. There are partners, and let us stipulate, they are deuchebags, who will be offended - and may let you know they are offended! - if you put the associate name first.

These rules are NOT general to all firms, but the point is that "To" and "CC" lines matter for way more than getting the email to the right person, so always check with your supervising associate for the correct distribution list and who goes into what box and in what order, at least until you've got the rules down. Hell, I've been here for 4 years and I STILL sometimes ask partners who should be CCed on emails to clients when it's unclear (say, we're doing an assignment, but do I also CC the relationship partner who referred the client to our group?) And everyone understands why I ask, because it counts.

That seems like a great use of time.

Can I bill a .1 or .2 for it?

[IAFG]

Ordering the "to" and "CC" lines is madness to me but I know there are people who reeeaaaally care. And those people are simply more prestigious than me.

[rickgrimes69]

Ordering the "to" and "CC" lines is madness to me but I know there are people who reeeaaaally care. And those people are simply more prestigious than me.

When I was a paralegal I was instructed to use specific distribution lists which populated the "to" and "cc" lines in order of importance. I was actually mildly reprimanded by my senior once for putting an associate in front of a partner.

[El Pollito]

I forgot one more super important one. You need to learn etiquette of "To" lines and "CC" lines at your firm. At my shop, if you email a partner and CC me, that means I have reviewed and signed off on your work. If you CC me and I never reviewed, I'm going to go absolutely ballistic! It means I need to email the partner to let them know I haven't reviewed, half the time the partner won't read that email anyways and will come to my office to ask why I signed off on such a crappy memo, etc.

Similarly, at my firm partners always go before associates in address lines. There are partners, and let us stipulate, they are deuchebags, who will be offended - and may let you know they are offended! - if you put the associate name first.

These rules are NOT general to all firms, but the point is that "To" and "CC" lines matter for way more than getting the email to the right person, so always check with your supervising associate for the correct distribution list and who goes into what box and in what order, at least until you've got the rules down. Hell, I've been here for 4 years and I STILL sometimes ask partners who should be CCed on emails when it's unclear. And everyone understands why I do that, because it counts.

Lol

[El Pollito]

Ordering the "to" and "CC" lines is madness to me but I know there are people who reeeaaaally care. And those people are simply more prestigious than me.

If no partners are on the email, just do alphabetical so no one gets butthurt.

[bjsesq]

Ordering the "to" and "CC" lines is madness to me but I know there are people who reeeaaaally care. And those people are simply more prestigious than me.

If no partners are on the email, just do alphabetical so no one gets butthurt.

Apparently the alphabet lacks prestige.

[IAFG]

Ordering the "to" and "CC" lines is madness to me but I know there are people who reeeaaaally care. And those people are simply more prestigious than me.

If no partners are on the email, just do alphabetical so no one gets butthurt.

No, a girl I know told a story about how another associate failed to order by seniority and GASP how shocked she was.