Best firms for life/work balance? Forum

[rayiner]

I agree that people should be skeptical of stated billables minimims.

For instance, I bet the 1200/1800 thing is to adjust for the fact that a bunch of your hours are cut as a first year. What this means is if your hours keep getting cut they probably count your 1800 after the cut which means it might take 2200 to get to 1800.

What are everyone's thoughts on those average associate hours worked/billed numbers posted on some firms' NALP pages? Accurate or no?

Meaningless. This varies more by practice area than between firms.

[rpupkin]

I agree that people should be skeptical of stated billables minimims.

For instance, I bet the 1200/1800 thing is to adjust for the fact that a bunch of your hours are cut as a first year. What this means is if your hours keep getting cut they probably count your 1800 after the cut which means it might take 2200 to get to 1800.

What are everyone's thoughts on those average associate hours worked/billed numbers posted on some firms' NALP pages? Accurate or no?

Inaccurate. Or at least wildly misleading.

[smallfirmassociate]

If you want work/life balance, you're going to need to find the right type of small firm or else find a unicorn biglaw firm. While not all small firms have great balance, some do. There are some attorney indicators that you can watch for as an outsider or SA: the attorneys have lots of kids, engage in hobbies, take lots of vacations, and keep lax hours.

Of course, a lot of people on TLS would never consider taking a job for $53,000 in Terre Haute Indiana or $61,000 in Omaha, Nebraska, or $49,000 in Spartanburg, South Carolina or $55,000 in Wilmington, North Carolina. But if you really want work-life balance, those are the types of jobs where you are most likely to find it.

[Florence Night]

I agree that people should be skeptical of stated billables minimims.

For instance, I bet the 1200/1800 thing is to adjust for the fact that a bunch of your hours are cut as a first year. What this means is if your hours keep getting cut they probably count your 1800 after the cut which means it might take 2200 to get to 1800.

What are everyone's thoughts on those average associate hours worked/billed numbers posted on some firms' NALP pages? Accurate or no?

Meaningless. This varies more by practice area than between firms.

I agree that people should be skeptical of stated billables minimims.

For instance, I bet the 1200/1800 thing is to adjust for the fact that a bunch of your hours are cut as a first year. What this means is if your hours keep getting cut they probably count your 1800 after the cut which means it might take 2200 to get to 1800.

What are everyone's thoughts on those average associate hours worked/billed numbers posted on some firms' NALP pages? Accurate or no?

Inaccurate. Or at least wildly misleading.

Thanks. Sort of what I was figuring. Are you guys at firms that post "average hours billed" numbers on NALP?

[IAFG]

It's already been said, but I think it's accurate that most large law firms only let you off with billing less to the extent they don't have enough work. At EVERY firm, if there is work, you will be doing it. I don't think this game of trying to find a saner large law firm is going to get you anywhere.

[09042014]

It's already been said, but I think it's accurate that most large law firms only let you off with billing less to the extent they don't have enough work. At EVERY firm, if there is work, you will be doing it. I don't think this game of trying to find a saner large law firm is going to get you anywhere.

While this is true, there are some unaccounted variables. Like how much work before your team brings in someone else or how busy before the firm hires a lateral or how much work before a partner stops pitching to new clients.

I agree that if there is work you aren't going to avoid it. But I don't believe that it's purely amount of work.

[IAFG]

It's already been said, but I think it's accurate that most large law firms only let you off with billing less to the extent they don't have enough work. At EVERY firm, if there is work, you will be doing it. I don't think this game of trying to find a saner large law firm is going to get you anywhere.

While this is true, there are some unaccounted variables. Like how much work before your team brings in someone else or how busy before the firm hires a lateral or how much work before a partner stops pitching to new clients.

I agree that if there is work you aren't going to avoid it. But I don't believe that it's purely amount of work.

I don't know that I buy an entire large law firm is playing with the knobs with a mind toward expecting less from associates. It's not all the same, obviously, but I don't think any large law firm is a safer bet. Maybe depends more on city.

[ChardPennington]

If you want work/life balance, you're going to need to find the right type of small firm or else find a unicorn biglaw firm. While not all small firms have great balance, some do. There are some attorney indicators that you can watch for as an outsider or SA: the attorneys have lots of kids, engage in hobbies, take lots of vacations, and keep lax hours.

Of course, a lot of people on TLS would never consider taking a job for $53,000 in Terre Haute Indiana or $61,000 in Omaha, Nebraska, or $49,000 in Spartanburg, South Carolina or $55,000 in Wilmington, North Carolina. But if you really want work-life balance, those are the types of jobs where you are most likely to find it.

I probably have the resume to get hired at any firm in Terre Haute, Indiana and I can guarantee, point blank, that not a single one would ever consider interviewing me. Plenty of people on TLS would be happy to work for firms like this but unless you grew up in those towns it isn't happening. As a rule small town firms place insane emphasis on ties to the community.

[Anonymous User]

Having kids as an associate is probably less onerous than most people imagine, at least outside of NYC where office face time until 8-9 pm seems requisite. At most firms if you're willing to get in by 6 am, you could probably get away with leaving at 5-6 pm more often than not.

[IAFG]

Having kids as an associate is probably less onerous than most people imagine, at least outside of NYC where office face time until 8-9 pm seems requisite. At most firms if you're willing to get in by 6 am, you could probably get away with leaving at 5-6 pm more often than not.

I think this is absolutely wrong. Coming in early doesn't help you much as a junior if the dept culture is to stay until a certain time.

[Anonymous User]

Does not having a facetime requirement help? The firm I'm going to has crazy high billables, but the associates tell us there is not really much of a facetime requirement, as long as they are able to be contacted instantly. In terms of balance, I'm thinking more of the ability to continue working from home around dinner time, so I can take my dinner break at home with the wife and get right back to billing. At least she can slip in and give me a peck while I bill every once in a while

[MarkRenton]

Having kids as an associate is probably less onerous than most people imagine, at least outside of NYC where office face time until 8-9 pm seems requisite. At most firms if you're willing to get in by 6 am, you could probably get away with leaving at 5-6 pm more often than not.

I think this is absolutely wrong. Coming in early doesn't help you much as a junior if the dept culture is to stay until a certain time.

I think IAFG hits on the key thing that those who're not practicing have a hard time grasping. The one thing that most biglaw attorneys echo is that you have zero control over your time and hours. Unfortunately, many law students interpret this as "lawyers must work 80 hours a week," which leads them to believe that "I will work until 6pm, go home for dinner, log on remotely, and then work a bunch on the weekend. Preferably Sunday." But in reality you have NO control over your schedule. Partners often say at 7pm, "I need you to edit this document and then bring it to me at my office when you're done by 10pm," implying that you're to be at your desk doing it. Or you'll have to be in the office on Saturday night for a call or doc review. The important part is that arriving at 6am just means you'll being at the office more hours than if you came in at 9:30am;y ou often do NOT get to leave when you'd like, despite working X many hours.

I went on ad nauseum on this point, but I wanted to make it abundantly clear this misperception.

[IAFG]

Does not having a facetime requirement help? The firm I'm going to has crazy high billables, but the associates tell us there is not really much of a facetime requirement, as long as they are able to be contacted instantly. In terms of balance, I'm thinking more of the ability to continue working from home around dinner time, so I can take my dinner break at home with the wife and get right back to billing. At least she can slip in and give me a peck while I bill every once in a while

Is it Williams & Connolly? I guess they can really do the gig from anywhere.

[09042014]

Does not having a facetime requirement help? The firm I'm going to has crazy high billables, but the associates tell us there is not really much of a facetime requirement, as long as they are able to be contacted instantly. In terms of balance, I'm thinking more of the ability to continue working from home around dinner time, so I can take my dinner break at home with the wife and get right back to billing. At least she can slip in and give me a peck while I bill every once in a while

Is it Williams & Connolly? I guess they can really do the gig from anywhere.

Clearly it's K&E. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgSJUzYCGtc

[IAFG]

Having kids as an associate is probably less onerous than most people imagine, at least outside of NYC where office face time until 8-9 pm seems requisite. At most firms if you're willing to get in by 6 am, you could probably get away with leaving at 5-6 pm more often than not.

I think this is absolutely wrong. Coming in early doesn't help you much as a junior if the dept culture is to stay until a certain time.

I think IAFG hits on the key thing that those who're not practicing have a hard time grasping. The one thing that most biglaw attorneys echo is that you have zero control over your time and hours. Unfortunately, many law students interpret this as "lawyers must work 80 hours a week," which leads them to believe that "I will work until 6pm, go home for dinner, log on remotely, and then work a bunch on the weekend. Preferably Sunday." But in reality you have NO control over your schedule. Partners often say at 7pm, "I need you to edit this document and then bring it to me at my office when you're done by 10pm," implying that you're to be at your desk doing it. Or you'll have to be in the office on Saturday night for a call or doc review. The important part is that arriving at 6am just means you'll being at the office more hours than if you came in at 9:30am;y ou often do NOT get to leave when you'd like, despite working X many hours.

I went on ad nauseum on this point, but I wanted to make it abundantly clear this misperception.

In fact many days, as a junior, I go in at 8:30 or whatever with NO work, then didn't get anything to do until 10. Coming in at 6 wouldn't help at all.

[cslouisck]

Is there any sense that regional firms are any better? Like, I dunno, Bryan Cave, Faegre, Snell & Wilmer and so forth? Or is it a case of similar hours with less interesting work and lower pay?

[IAFG]

Is there any sense that regional firms are any better? Like, I dunno, Bryan Cave, Faegre, Snell & Wilmer and so forth? Or is it a case of similar hours with less interesting work and lower pay?

As I said in my thread about the perks of firm life, smaller cases are often much cooler and more interesting IME. A case being in the financial news doesn't get me very far in terms of wanting to stay late, and the bigger the case the less juniors get to do.

As for hours, I think my secondary/tertiary market is MUCH better than NYC but probably not better than (supposedly less hours-intensive) DC.

[cslouisck]

Is there any sense that regional firms are any better? Like, I dunno, Bryan Cave, Faegre, Snell & Wilmer and so forth? Or is it a case of similar hours with less interesting work and lower pay?

As I said in my thread about the perks of firm life, smaller cases are often much cooler and more interesting IME. A case being in the financial news doesn't get me very far in terms of wanting to stay late, and the bigger the case the less juniors get to do.

As for hours, I think my secondary/tertiary market is MUCH better than NYC but probably not better than (supposedly less hours-intensive) DC.

Cool. Thanks.

[keg411]

Having kids as an associate is probably less onerous than most people imagine, at least outside of NYC where office face time until 8-9 pm seems requisite. At most firms if you're willing to get in by 6 am, you could probably get away with leaving at 5-6 pm more often than not.

I think this is absolutely wrong. Coming in early doesn't help you much as a junior if the dept culture is to stay until a certain time.

Seriously, this is such a firm-by-firm, department-by-department, partner-by-partner basis that it's really hard to tell if you can get away with it. Even in NYC. Sometimes you can pull the come in early, leave early and sometimes you can't. It really just all depends on way more factors than are in your control.

[smallfirmassociate]

I probably have the resume to get hired at any firm in Terre Haute, Indiana and I can guarantee, point blank, that not a single one would ever consider interviewing me. Plenty of people on TLS would be happy to work for firms like this but unless you grew up in those towns it isn't happening. As a rule small town firms place insane emphasis on ties to the community.

I wouldn't be so sure on your guarantee. We've hired attorneys who have no connection to the area. That's not the norm, but there are no rules.

Of course, the relevant time frame for showing interest in working in Terre Haute isn't after graduation. The problem is that a lot of law students wouldn't show interest in that type of job as a 1L or 2L, which is the last credible opportunity to show interest. My advice to anyone considering a "work/life" balance firm would be to mass mail, call, network with small firms as a 1L and show that you're interested in that type of firm. You'd be surprised at the opportunities. I've heard from a handful of partners at other firms that they have a very difficult time finding qualified associates and SA's. Hell, this year our firm only had a handful of applicants during OCI and ended up not hiring anyone.

There's definitely a disconnect. Law students and recent grads say they would take a small firm job, small firms say they can't find associates. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying any particular party is lying, as I know some of these partners are turning away some applicants, but it's not like these firms are inundated with applications.

tl;dr - If you show interest in a small firm only after you've struck out at biglaw, then the firm won't want to hire you for a number of legitimate reasons.

[Anonymous User]

I probably have the resume to get hired at any firm in Terre Haute, Indiana and I can guarantee, point blank, that not a single one would ever consider interviewing me. Plenty of people on TLS would be happy to work for firms like this but unless you grew up in those towns it isn't happening. As a rule small town firms place insane emphasis on ties to the community.

I wouldn't be so sure on your guarantee. We've hired attorneys who have no connection to the area. That's not the norm, but there are no rules.

Of course, the relevant time frame for showing interest in working in Terre Haute isn't after graduation. The problem is that a lot of law students wouldn't show interest in that type of job as a 1L or 2L, which is the last credible opportunity to show interest. My advice to anyone considering a "work/life" balance firm would be to mass mail, call, network with small firms as a 1L and show that you're interested in that type of firm. You'd be surprised at the opportunities. I've heard from a handful of partners at other firms that they have a very difficult time finding qualified associates and SA's. Hell, this year our firm only had a handful of applicants during OCI and ended up not hiring anyone.

There's definitely a disconnect. Law students and recent grads say they would take a small firm job, small firms say they can't find associates. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying any particular party is lying, as I know some of these partners are turning away some applicants, but it's not like these firms are inundated with applications.

tl;dr - If you show interest in a small firm only after you've struck out at biglaw, then the firm won't want to hire you for a number of legitimate reasons.

I work in a city with over 500,000 people where it's impossible to get hired without ties. I can't even imagine how hard it is to get interviewed in a small town.

[smallfirmassociate]

I probably have the resume to get hired at any firm in Terre Haute, Indiana and I can guarantee, point blank, that not a single one would ever consider interviewing me. Plenty of people on TLS would be happy to work for firms like this but unless you grew up in those towns it isn't happening. As a rule small town firms place insane emphasis on ties to the community.

I wouldn't be so sure on your guarantee. We've hired attorneys who have no connection to the area. That's not the norm, but there are no rules.

Of course, the relevant time frame for showing interest in working in Terre Haute isn't after graduation. The problem is that a lot of law students wouldn't show interest in that type of job as a 1L or 2L, which is the last credible opportunity to show interest. My advice to anyone considering a "work/life" balance firm would be to mass mail, call, network with small firms as a 1L and show that you're interested in that type of firm. You'd be surprised at the opportunities. I've heard from a handful of partners at other firms that they have a very difficult time finding qualified associates and SA's. Hell, this year our firm only had a handful of applicants during OCI and ended up not hiring anyone.

There's definitely a disconnect. Law students and recent grads say they would take a small firm job, small firms say they can't find associates. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying any particular party is lying, as I know some of these partners are turning away some applicants, but it's not like these firms are inundated with applications.

tl;dr - If you show interest in a small firm only after you've struck out at biglaw, then the firm won't want to hire you for a number of legitimate reasons.

I work in a city with over 500,000 people where it's impossible to get hired without ties. I can't even imagine how hard it is to get interviewed in a small town.

At the risk of sounding like a CSO worker, and being willing to brave the excessive cynicism of young, hard-charging unemployed folks, I'll just tell you that you don't know unless you try. Obviously these firms have jobs that aren't being filled, and I know some that have hired out-of-market employees.