HLS EIP 2013 Forum

[Anonymous User]

A few pro-tips from someone who went through it last year with iffy grades (1H/9P) and ended up doing insanely well.

1) Don't stress too much about grades;
2) If you are serious about bidding the major SF/SV players (Fenwick, Wilson Sonsini, etc.) either put a few of them in your top 7ish slots or don't even bother wasting the bids; and
3) Don't stress too much about specific bid ordering, if you aren't focusing solely on SF/SV you will end up with tons of interviews.

I'm curious about what you mean by "insanely well." Can you be more specific? Also, what advice would you give to those below median for bidding?

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

A few pro-tips from someone who went through it last year with iffy grades (1H/9P) and ended up doing insanely well.

1) Don't stress too much about grades;
2) If you are serious about bidding the major SF/SV players (Fenwick, Wilson Sonsini, etc.) either put a few of them in your top 7ish slots or don't even bother wasting the bids; and
3) Don't stress too much about specific bid ordering, if you aren't focusing solely on SF/SV you will end up with tons of interviews.

I'm curious about what you mean by "insanely well." Can you be more specific? Also, what advice would you give to those below median for bidding?

Thanks!

I'm the quoted Anon. I had 20-25 callbacks (across 4 different cities), accepted 10 and ended up with 5 offers and 3 post-callback rejections before withdrawing from the rest. In the 1-5 H grade range, however, it is going to vary wildly by the individual. If you have something to offer beyond grades (athlete, good interviewer, good work experience, etc.) you will far outperform others within that same range no matter what their grades.

[Anonymous User]

In the 1-5 H grade range, however, it is going to vary wildly by the individual.

This is not exactly correct. As explained earlier, certain firms (only a few, but they do exist) have cutoffs. That means there is a difference between 1-5 Hs. 5 might be enough to meet any cutoff (with the exception of the selective DC firms). I am guessing that 1-2 would probably not be enough for some cutoffs. The firm person who posted earlier said he thought his firm's cutoff would be above 3. Quinn appears to have a cutoff around 4-5.

Outside of those firms, then it is probably accurate that within 1-5 Hs it can vary widely (and everyone has a shot). But you can probably also include 6-7 Hs as well, depending on the size of the class. A firm with a small class will not have a guaranteed seat for anyone, 7 Hs or 1 H.

So the point is that there is a lot more to the process than grades. With 1 H you have a shot at a TON of market paying firms, but you would not want to only bid on the handful of firms that do impose cutoffs.

-3078

[Anonymous User]

Would someone be willing to critique this extremely tentative bid list? Honestly, I would love more than anything to get California, but at this point I feel a bit uneasy about it all. I'm not sure if my grades will get me there, since I've got no ties to the state. I think I've got a story that's sufficiently compelling, at least to convince the interviewers that I won't be interested in leaving Cal.

The list is the very rough order of how I'd rank them.

5H/5P, grad degree, year of WE:

MoFo (SF)
Fenwick (SV)
O'Melveny (SF)
Cooley (SV)
Gibson (LA) [SF out of the question?]
Kirkland (LA or SF)
Skadden (LA)
WSGR (SV)
WilmerHale (SV)
Ropes (SF)
Covington (SF)
Orrick (SF)
Jones Day (SF)
Weil (SV)
Latham (LA)
Munger (LA) [wasted bid?]
SullCrom (LA)
Bingham (SF)
Sidley (LA)
Cravath (NY)
White Case (Miami)
Paul Hastings (SF)
Davis Polk (SV)
STB (SV)
Jenner and Block (LA)
Mayer Brown (LA)
Arnold & Porter (SF)
Gunderson (SV)
Cleary (NY)
WLRK (NY) [completely wasted bid?]
Hogan (Miami)


What should I add? How unreasonable are some of these firms? Am I likely to get SF? Is LA more likely, and should I center my bids there? Should I throw out the NY and Miami firms? I've got an appointment with OCS later this week, and another with the market person for Northern California next week--I just want to come into both with an idea of where I stand.

Vielen Dank to all!

MC Rove

[Anonymous User]

How high do you have to bid V15-V25 firms like Shearman/Sidley to get an interview?

[Anonymous User]

Hello! Joining in

1H/9P, URM, International W/E and 1 yr W/E before law school, Language skills. International student so no ties anywhere in the states, plus any firm I pick I'll be locked to for at least two years on the visa so hopefully no issues with ties? Aiming for NY/DC.

I'm mostly picking firms based on if they have an international office/international work, and I'm not sure how to rank based on grade selectivity, at this point I'm pretty much ranking them based on number of interview slots so any and all help particularly based on grade slectivity would be appreciated!

Reach
Allen & Overy
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
freshfields bruckhaus deringer
clifford chance
Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP
Debevoise & Plimpton
hogan lovells (DC)
Cravath, Swaine & Moore
Latham & Watkins
Linklaters
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher

Target
Chadbourne & Parke LLP
Kirkland & Ellis
Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson
Schulte Roth & Zabel
Dechert

No idea
Crowell & Moring (DC)
Weil Gotshal & Manges
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
Proskauer Rose
Cahill Gordon & Reindel
White & Case
Jones Day
Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt & Mosle
Covington & Burling LLP (DC)
Sullivan & Cromwell
Arnold & Porter (DC)
Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP
Goodwin Procter (DC)
sidley austin llp (DC)
Linklaters
Jenner & Block (DC)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom (DC)
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft

Already have callback offers from Shearman and Steptoe if that makes a difference?

-LadyBrienne

[Anonymous User]

[stupid question alert]
Can firms see your 2L fall schedule? If so, is there any sense in loading up on a gunner schedule for EIP appearances, then after EIP drop back down to the 11 units you'd been planning to take?

[Anonymous User]

Hello! Joining in

1H/9P, URM, International W/E and 1 yr W/E before law school, Language skills. International student so no ties anywhere in the states, plus any firm I pick I'll be locked to for at least two years on the visa so hopefully no issues with ties? Aiming for NY/DC.

I'm mostly picking firms based on if they have an international office/international work, and I'm not sure how to rank based on grade selectivity, at this point I'm pretty much ranking them based on number of interview slots so any and all help particularly based on grade slectivity would be appreciated!

Reach
Allen & Overy
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer
Clifford Chance
Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP
Debevoise & Plimpton
Hogan Lovells (DC)
Cravath, Swaine & Moore
Latham & Watkins
Linklaters
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher

Target
Chadbourne & Parke LLP
Kirkland & Ellis
Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson
Schulte Roth & Zabel
Dechert

No idea
Crowell & Moring (DC)
Weil Gotshal & Manges
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
Proskauer Rose
Cahill Gordon & Reindel
White & Case
Jones Day
Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt & Mosle
Covington & Burling LLP (DC)
Sullivan & Cromwell
Arnold & Porter (DC)
Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP
Goodwin Procter (DC)
Sidley Austin LLP (DC)
Linklaters
Jenner & Block (DC)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom (DC)
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft

Already have callback offers from Shearman and Steptoe if that makes a difference?

-LadyBrienne

You may want to talk to someone in OCS about this. I can tell you right now that you have at least one reach in your "target" category, a few targets in your "reach" category, and several firms in your reach and "no idea" categories that are totally wasted bids (obvious examples: Jenner DC, Covington DC, SullCrom). OCS has a list of less selective firms somewhere on its website, and it might be smart for you to start with those.

[Person1111]

[stupid question alert]
Can firms see your 2L fall schedule? If so, is there any sense in loading up on a gunner schedule for EIP appearances, then after EIP drop back down to the 11 units you'd been planning to take?

There is no sense in this, and no employer will care about the number of units you are taking. They might care about whether you are taking 11 units of "Race and Justice: The Wire" versus taking 11 units of doctrinal classes (although even that is doubtful), but adding extra units will not impress anyone.

[Anonymous User]

[stupid question alert]
Can firms see your 2L fall schedule? If so, is there any sense in loading up on a gunner schedule for EIP appearances, then after EIP drop back down to the 11 units you'd been planning to take?

There is no sense in this, and no employer will care about the number of units you are taking. They might care about whether you are taking 11 units of "Race and Justice: The Wire" versus taking 11 units of doctrinal classes (although even that is doubtful), but adding extra units will not impress anyone.

Thanks for talking some sense into me. Although now I'm gonna feel super awkward about the fact that I actually am taking that class on The Wire

[Anonymous User]

You may want to talk to someone in OCS about this. I can tell you right now that you have at least one reach in your "target" category, a few targets in your "reach" category, and several firms in your reach and "no idea" categories that are totally wasted bids (obvious examples: Jenner DC, Covington DC, SullCrom). OCS has a list of less selective firms somewhere on its website, and it might be smart for you to start with those.

So, I actually spoke to an advisor yesterday, and it seems this list was quite all over the place, first attempt :p I'm going to post an updated list now

Allen & Overy New York, NY
Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP New York, NY
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton New York, NY
Goodwin Procter New York, NY
Morrison & Foerster New York, NY
Linklaters New York, NY
mayer brown llp Washington, DC
clifford chance New York, NY
freshfields bruckhaus deringer New York, NY
Chadbourne & Parke LLP New York, NY
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom New York, NY
hogan lovells Washington, DC
Jones Day New York, NY
Latham & Watkins New York, NY
White & Case New York, NY
Kirkland & Ellis New York, NY
King & Spalding Washington, DC
Crowell & Moring Washington, DC
Weil Gotshal & Manges New York, NY
Arnold & Porter Washington, DC
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy New York, NY
Cahill Gordon & Reindel New York, NY
Debevoise & Plimpton New York, NY
Proskauer Rose New York, NY
Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP New York, NY
Patterson, Belknap, Webb & Tyler New York, NY
Dechert New York, NY
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton Washington, DC
Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson New York, NY
Cravath, Swaine & Moore New York, NY
sidley austin llp Washington, DC
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft New York, NY
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher New York, NY
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison New York, NY
Steptoe & Johnson Washington, DC

In order of interview slots (with a few moved up that I really want)

Trying to have a good mix of reaches -i.e cleary, gibson, skadden, latham, and targets. Thoughts?

-LadyBrienne

[Anonymous User]

You may want to talk to someone in OCS about this. I can tell you right now that you have at least one reach in your "target" category, a few targets in your "reach" category, and several firms in your reach and "no idea" categories that are totally wasted bids (obvious examples: Jenner DC, Covington DC, SullCrom). OCS has a list of less selective firms somewhere on its website, and it might be smart for you to start with those.

So, I actually spoke to an advisor yesterday, and it seems this list was quite all over the place, first attempt :p I'm going to post an updated list now

Allen & Overy New York, NY
Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP New York, NY
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton New York, NY
Goodwin Procter New York, NY
Morrison & Foerster New York, NY
Linklaters New York, NY
Mayer Brown LLP Washington, DC
Clifford Chance New York, NY
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer New York, NY
Chadbourne & Parke LLP New York, NY
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom New York, NY
Hogan Lovells Washington, DC
Jones Day New York, NY
Latham & Watkins New York, NY
White & Case New York, NY
Kirkland & Ellis New York, NY
King & Spalding Washington, DC
Crowell & Moring Washington, DC
Weil Gotshal & Manges New York, NY
Arnold & Porter Washington, DC
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy New York, NY
Cahill Gordon & Reindel New York, NY
Debevoise & Plimpton New York, NY
Proskauer Rose New York, NY
Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP New York, NY
Patterson, Belknap, Webb & Tyler New York, NY
Dechert New York, NY
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton Washington, DC
Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson New York, NY
Cravath, Swaine & Moore New York, NY
Sidley Austin LLP Washington, DC
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft New York, NY
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher New York, NY
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison New York, NY
Steptoe & Johnson Washington, DC

In order of interview slots (with a few moved up that I really want)

Trying to have a good mix of reaches -i.e cleary, gibson, skadden, latham, and targets. Thoughts?

-LadyBrienne

Wha'd they offer in terms of advice RE somewhat targeting DC with 1H

[Stinson]

[stupid question alert]
Can firms see your 2L fall schedule? If so, is there any sense in loading up on a gunner schedule for EIP appearances, then after EIP drop back down to the 11 units you'd been planning to take?

There is no sense in this, and no employer will care about the number of units you are taking. They might care about whether you are taking 11 units of "Race and Justice: The Wire" versus taking 11 units of doctrinal classes (although even that is doubtful), but adding extra units will not impress anyone.

Thanks for talking some sense into me. Although now I'm gonna feel super awkward about the fact that I actually am taking that class on The Wire

Consider it a personality test for the firms - if they are cool with you taking that class (which I hear is awesome) it tells you something good about them.

That's a somewhat tongue in cheek response but it bears on a larger point that is worth making for all prospective EIP'ers. You all have some idea of what you want, some of you have very specific firms in mind. Those perspectives may even come from first hand knowledge, via conversations with friends or acquaintances who work at those firms. (This is a good idea by the way.)

But none of you knows the firms like the firms know themselves. You will likely walk into every interview trying to convince each employer that you are a good fit for him or her, because that's what you're supposed to do. Sometimes the ruse - if it is a ruse -works, and sometimes not. In some cases, you actually shouldn't want it to work.

It's easy to get caught up in "I want this" or the more dangerous "This is prestigious, so I want this" or "This is what people tell me I should want, so I want this." EIP is very conducive to that kind of thinking. (You'll all see what I mean when the people interviewing for NYC get callbacks on Monday and Tuesday and the people interviewing for anyone else have to wait till the end of the week.)

But given that most of you will have options anyway, you actually want the firms to do some real selecting for fit, and in that sense it pays to be yourself to some extent. (Obviously you want to hide glaring flaws, but don't paper over your entire personality.) If you're a quiet, introverted person, don't try to convince a fratstar firm that you are a fratstar, and vice versa. Firms have a good sense of their own personalities, much better than you have, and will select for fit if you give them a sense of who you are.

When I was an SA, as the summer went on I just sort of started realizing little things, and by the end I thought, "gee, most of this place fits my personality very well." During the same time I talked to other SA's working at other firms, and they described a lot of things that really would have rubbed me the wrong way. A lot of the ones that sounded like they wouldn't fit me at all didn't give me callbacks, which in hindsight was good. By contrast, the ones that did give me callbacks were mostly in the right ballpark, personality wise.

tldr: Don't try to please absolutely everyone because you go to HLS and you will have options. Take advantage of the information advantage that firm recruiters have by being yourself.

[Wonk]

[stupid question alert]
Can firms see your 2L fall schedule? If so, is there any sense in loading up on a gunner schedule for EIP appearances, then after EIP drop back down to the 11 units you'd been planning to take?

There is no sense in this, and no employer will care about the number of units you are taking. They might care about whether you are taking 11 units of "Race and Justice: The Wire" versus taking 11 units of doctrinal classes (although even that is doubtful), but adding extra units will not impress anyone.

Thanks for talking some sense into me. Although now I'm gonna feel super awkward about the fact that I actually am taking that class on The Wire

Consider it a personality test for the firms - if they are cool with you taking that class (which I hear is awesome) it tells you something good about them.

That's a somewhat tongue in cheek response but it bears on a larger point that is worth making for all prospective EIP'ers. You all have some idea of what you want, some of you have very specific firms in mind. Those perspectives may even come from first hand knowledge, via conversations with friends or acquaintances who work at those firms. (This is a good idea by the way.)

But none of you knows the firms like the firms know themselves. You will likely walk into every interview trying to convince each employer that you are a good fit for him or her, because that's what you're supposed to do. Sometimes the ruse - if it is a ruse -works, and sometimes not. In some cases, you actually shouldn't want it to work.

It's easy to get caught up in "I want this" or the more dangerous "This is prestigious, so I want this" or "This is what people tell me I should want, so I want this." EIP is very conducive to that kind of thinking. (You'll all see what I mean when the people interviewing for NYC get callbacks on Monday and Tuesday and the people interviewing for anyone else have to wait till the end of the week.)

But given that most of you will have options anyway, you actually want the firms to do some real selecting for fit, and in that sense it pays to be yourself to some extent. (Obviously you want to hide glaring flaws, but don't paper over your entire personality.) If you're a quiet, introverted person, don't try to convince a fratstar firm that you are a fratstar, and vice versa. Firms have a good sense of their own personalities, much better than you have, and will select for fit if you give them a sense of who you are.

When I was an SA, as the summer went on I just sort of started realizing little things, and by the end I thought, "gee, most of this place fits my personality very well." During the same time I talked to other SA's working at other firms, and they described a lot of things that really would have rubbed me the wrong way. A lot of the ones that sounded like they wouldn't fit me at all didn't give me callbacks, which in hindsight was good. By contrast, the ones that did give me callbacks were mostly in the right ballpark, personality wise.

tldr: Don't try to please absolutely everyone because you go to HLS and you will have options. Take advantage of the information advantage that firm recruiters have by being yourself.

Really great post, thank you.

[Wonk]

Tentative bidlist, 3 Hs, 7 Ps, want lit, exclusively focused on Boston, very strong ties, good WE:

WilmerHale (100)
Choate, Hall & Stewart (40)
Goodwin Procter (80)
Bingham McCutchen (80)
Latham & Watkins (38)
Ropes & Gray (280)
Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo (20)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom (40)
Jones Day (19)
foley hoag (80)
Foley & Lardner (20)
cooley llp (72)
McDermott Will & Emery (20)
Proskauer Rose (20)
Nutter, McClennen & Fish (40)
Nixon Peabody (20)
K&L Gates (20)
Sullivan & Worcester (40)
Nelson Mullins Riley & Scarborough (20)
Brown Rudnick (40)
DLA Piper (20)
Edwards Wildman (20)

[KaNa1986]

.

[Anonymous User]

You may want to talk to someone in OCS about this. I can tell you right now that you have at least one reach in your "target" category, a few targets in your "reach" category, and several firms in your reach and "no idea" categories that are totally wasted bids (obvious examples: Jenner DC, Covington DC, SullCrom). OCS has a list of less selective firms somewhere on its website, and it might be smart for you to start with those.

So, I actually spoke to an advisor yesterday, and it seems this list was quite all over the place, first attempt :p I'm going to post an updated list now

Allen & Overy New York, NY
Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP New York, NY
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton New York, NY
Goodwin Procter New York, NY
Morrison & Foerster New York, NY
Linklaters New York, NY
Mayer Brown LLP Washington, DC
Clifford Chance New York, NY
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer New York, NY
Chadbourne & Parke LLP New York, NY
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom New York, NY
Hogan Lovells Washington, DC
Jones Day New York, NY
Latham & Watkins New York, NY
White & Case New York, NY
Kirkland & Ellis New York, NY
King & Spalding Washington, DC
Crowell & Moring Washington, DC
Weil Gotshal & Manges New York, NY
Arnold & Porter Washington, DC
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy New York, NY
Cahill Gordon & Reindel New York, NY
Debevoise & Plimpton New York, NY
Proskauer Rose New York, NY
Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP New York, NY
Patterson, Belknap, Webb & Tyler New York, NY
Dechert New York, NY
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton Washington, DC
Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson New York, NY
Cravath, Swaine & Moore New York, NY
Sidley Austin LLP Washington, DC
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft New York, NY
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher New York, NY
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison New York, NY
Steptoe & Johnson Washington, DC

In order of interview slots (with a few moved up that I really want)

Trying to have a good mix of reaches -i.e cleary, gibson, skadden, latham, and targets. Thoughts?

-LadyBrienne

Wha'd they offer in terms of advice RE somewhat targeting DC with 1H

They had me remove some of my more selective DC firms, but otherwise they were like go for it. Maybe intertwined in this is I'm international so I'm locked down to whatever firm I pick for a couple years, plus have my only family in the US in DC. Sooo, no idea :p But the DC regional recruiter I talked to seemed to be pretty optimistic about this selection of NY/DC.

-LadyBrienne

[Anonymous User]

Is it necessary to mass email when so many firms come to EIP?

Wondering this as well

-Lollipop

[Anonymous User]

Is it necessary to mass email when so many firms come to EIP?

Need more info. Grades, where do you want to be, where do you not want to be?

[Anonymous User]

Had a conversation with OCS about mass mailing - they said it was mostly useful if you are looking at a secondary market that doesn't get many firms at EIP, or if you are all-in on a challenging market (SF/DC) with borderline grades for that market and are mass-mailing less-selective firms that don't come to EIP. Beyond that, they didn't seem to expect people to mass mail.

[Lubberlubber]

Had a conversation with OCS about mass mailing - they said it was mostly useful if you are looking at a secondary market that doesn't get many firms at EIP, or if you are all-in on a challenging market (SF/DC) with borderline grades for that market and are mass-mailing less-selective firms that don't come to EIP. Beyond that, they didn't seem to expect people to mass mail.

This was the impression I got too. Except I would add that they also seemed to recommend mass mailing if you have below-median grades, but only to firms not coming to EIP.

Does anyone know whether it makes any sense at all the mass-mail firms that ARE coming to EIP, that maybe you don't want to waste a bid on (for whatever reason)? Or should we just not mass-mail EIP firms at all, period.

[Anonymous User]

bear with me, I'm not at HLS (YSCCN) but your bidlists are pretty informative. Can someone explain what HLS's median is for my frame of reference? Sorry for the derail.

[Lubberlubber]

bear with me, I'm not at HLS (YSCCN) but your bidlists are pretty informative. Can someone explain what HLS's median is for my frame of reference? Sorry for the derail.

Statistically between 3 and 4 Hs. OCS just tells us 3.

[BelugaWhale]

median grades im pretty sure, any shot at quinn in DC? Pretty set on litigation, no spectacular softs.

For what its worth i think im decent at interviewing, just that not sure ill even be offered one.

on a related note: what should i be bidding on in terms of vault rankings for dc firms?

[Anonymous User]

median grades im pretty sure, any shot at quinn in DC? Pretty set on litigation, no spectacular softs.

For what its worth i think im decent at interviewing, just that not sure ill even be offered one.

on a related note: what should i be bidding on in terms of vault rankings for dc firms?

Thought Quinn had a cutoff of 4Hs. Might be higher in competitive markets like DC though. But why not throw them a resume? They move VERY fast (I got a response in 1 day).

As for DC firms, I would follow OCS's advice, and also look beyond the "sexy" firms like Covington, Williams, Jenner, etc., and look at less prestigious places like Steptoe etc.