Taking time off from summer firm Forum

[Icculus]

The number of people willing to sacrifice their live for their work ITT is astounding.

I don't think people here are sacrificing life for work, what they are doing is explaining that when you are entering into a summer job that has the potential to lead to a full time offer you don't want to risk not getting the offer. If OP were going into 1st year associate it would be different, but as a summer you want to avoid anything that can get you the dreaded no offer.

How is doing whatever it takes to avoid any potential "risk" not a sacrifice? Are you arguing that he's not giving up anything by skipping his brother's bachelor party? You're pretty much proving lukertin point if you are.

I think what you meant to say is that the sacrifice is reasonable, but you're still wrong.

What you're seeing ITT is typical TLS neuroticism run amok. People here have a compulsive need to try and find a "why" for everything that happens in life. It can never be as simple as "bad luck;" there has to be a reason why people get no offered. And so they congregate here and analyze everything to point of inanity hoping to find patterns in the chaos. Obviously there is some actual wisdom interspersed among the craziness, but there are people on this board who honestly think you're risking getting no offered if you wear a black suit to work. These people will advocate anything, regardless of how specious it is, so long as they think it's the risk adverse position.

You are absolutely right...black suit to work is the same as taking a day off for a bachor party during what is an essentially summer's long interview. Have you ever worked a real job? It is sometimes impossible to get a day off for something like this. Shockingly "party" is not a very good excuse for a day off unless you have actually earned some vacation time. And again, what people in the thread are saying, is be smart about it. We don't know what firm op is going to, the atmosphere, or the policies. If his firm says he needs to work then he my need to sacrifice part of the party. It's not like it's the actual wedding. Life is about making choices. If the party is that important the op can go.

ETA: skipping several hours of what seems to be a weekend long bachelor party is not sacrificing "life" it's being a grown up.

[09042014]

SA's don't get vacation days. That's not some crazy workaholic TLS neurosis. If your firm has a summer vacation policy, then great, but I don't think it's common.

If you have to take a day off, it's probably not the end of the world, but the reason you need to will make a difference. "I gotta make sure the strippers earn their pay" is a bad excuse.

Finally, you are the best man which means you should be planning this. I don't understand why a bachelor party would be during the day on a friday anyway. Move it back to start Friday night. And if you can't just skip the first couple hours.

You cannot compare an SA to a regular job because regular jobs give you vacation time you can use for any reason whatsoever. An SA has a general expectation that you'll be there unless you have a good reason not to.

[Icculus]

SA's don't get vacation days. That's not some crazy workaholic TLS neurosis. If your firm has a summer vacation policy, then great, but I don't think it's common.

If you have to take a day off, it's probably not the end of the world, but the reason you need to will make a difference. "I gotta make sure the strippers earn their pay" is a bad excuse.

Finally, you are the best man which means you should be planning this. I don't understand why a bachelor party would be during the day on a friday anyway. Move it back to start Friday night. And if you can't just skip the first couple hours.

You cannot compare an SA to a regular job because regular jobs give you vacation time you can use for any reason whatsoever. An SA has a general expectation that you'll be there unless you have a good reason not to.

I would add that even when you do have vacation days you can still be told no. I worked a finance job and was specifically told that I could not take vacation time other than maybe a day here or there from basically January through June because that was out busy season. Welcome to growing up and life in the real world.

[KidStuddi]

You are absolutely right...black suit to work is the same as taking a day off for a bachor party during what is an essentially summer's long interview. Have you ever worked a real job? It is sometimes impossible to get a day off for something like this. Shockingly "party" is not a very good excuse for a day off unless you have actually earned some vacation time. And again, what people in the thread are saying, is be smart about it. We don't know what firm op is going to, the atmosphere, or the policies. If his firm says he needs to work then he my need to sacrifice part of the party. It's not like it's the actual wedding. Life is about making choices. If the party is that important the op can go.

ETA: skipping several hours of what seems to be a weekend long bachelor party is not sacrificing "life" it's being a grown up.

Yeah, I have had a real job. In a real law firm too. Working with real attorneys. Shocking, right? Granted, I was a paralegal, but guess what I learned? When you're willing to give more than two months notice, indicate that you understand that you need to ensure that nothing gets missed during your absence and ensure that you put in whatever extra time is required to make sure you're pulling your weight and not simply offloading work on others, people tend to not have a problem with it. Most of them have lives and do it too. I don't know where you worked, but no one in HR ever even asked me why I was taking personal time. People asked out of polite interest, but no one has ever grilled me on why I needed to take time.

And, for what it's worth, it doesn't make you a "grown up" to pontificate and pass judgement about how much something should mean to someone else. I personally know BigLaw partners who never miss their kid's little league games because that would be too big of a sacrifice to them. I know others who took days off to travel to and attend anime conventions with their SO because that was important to them. Your culture might not value weddings and the build up to them, but in many cultures it's huge. The adult position would probably be one of understanding, not contempt for someone whose family dynamic you do not appreciate or understand.

You guys keep calling it an 8-12 week interview, as if that bolsters your point, and then somehow neglect to remember that you schedule your callback when convient for you. And then when you get there, virtually no one interviews a candidate by spending the entire time talking about the law / your qualifications. They ask about what you do in your free time. They ask about your interets outside the law. They ask about your hometown. They'd probably ask about your family if it wasn't borderline illegal. Why do you think they schedule so many social events for the summer? Why do you think they'd suddenly stop caring about that stuff or expect you to stop caring?

You guys can rationalize making yourselves miserable walking around on pins and needles believing that work-life balance is a myth, I'd rather not.

[Jsa725]

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[homestyle28]

I'm taking some number of days off this summer, but because my wife is having a baby. I think it's reasonable to think firm reaction will vary based on reason for absence. That said, I'd contact the recruiter and be honest about things. You're the best man, it's not crazy to think you'd be a the bachelor party and it sounds like you're talking about missing 1 day, so not that crazy. I'd contact them asap, demonstrate a willingness to be flexible (work 4 long days that week, or make up a day on a weekend, etc.). If you have any contacts at the firm you especially trust, I'd run it by them, they'd know best if it's no big deal or not worth bringing up.

Congrats!

Thanks! This was the high point of the four pages I just caught up on.

[romothesavior]

JFC you guys are overthinking this. OP should just see what his firm says and go from there. I really doubt most firms would care about taking one day for something like this, but it sounds like my firm is a hell of a lot more lifestyle friendly and laid back than the ones some of you are going to, so again, my perspective is likely skewed.

That said, DF has a good point. The OP is the one planning the party. Why does he have to miss the entire day of work? I think he could pass off "Can I take off early on a Friday?" a lot easier than "Can I take a day off?" Or just plan it for Friday night or Saturday. So OP, you are in control, you should take it by the reigns and plan it in a way that accommodates your schedule, if you can do that.

[Icculus]

To be clear, my guess is op could get the time. I just think it is ridiculous to say because people think that it's not the wisest thing to take a day off form an SA those people are sacrificing 'life' for job when in reality it's about impressing the firm to get an offer. If OP were talking about the wedding itself I would tell him there was no worry since I think a firm that didn't understand that would be crazy. However, I think talking to your new employer about a day off for a bachelor party is a bit different. I know people who were no offered. One was in a class of 4 people and was told that the firm basically flipped a coin since all the SA's did a great job. I'm sure if one of those SAs took a day for a bachelor party that would have been used as an excuse.

[rad lulz]

To be clear, my guess is op could get the time. I just think it is ridiculous to say because people think that it's not the wisest thing to take a day off form an SA those people are sacrificing 'life' for job when in reality it's about impressing the firm to get an offer. If OP were talking about the wedding itself I would tell him there was no worry since I think a firm that didn't understand that would be crazy. However, I think talking to your new employer about a day off for a bachelor party is a bit different. I know people who were no offered. One was in a class of 4 people and was told that the firm basically flipped a coin since all the SA's did a great job. I'm sure if one of those SAs took a day for a bachelor party that would have been used as an excuse.

Of all the no offer stories I have heard, that is the most horrifying

[09042014]

JFC you guys are overthinking this. OP should just see what his firm says and go from there. I really doubt most firms would care about taking one day for something like this, but it sounds like my firm is a hell of a lot more lifestyle friendly and laid back than the ones some of you are going to, so again, my perspective is likely skewed.

That said, DF has a good point. The OP is the one planning the party. Why does he have to miss the entire day of work? I think he could pass off "Can I take off early on a Friday?" a lot easier than "Can I take a day off?" Or just plan it for Friday night or Saturday. So OP, you are in control, you should take it by the reigns and plan it in a way that accommodates your schedule, if you can do that.

The only reason you'd miss a huge part of the party is if he's flying from west coast to east coast because the time delay fucks him. Otherwise just take a 7pm flight.

Or considering making up a better excuse if you cannot miss it. Maybe sugar coat it, call it a wedding event. I don't think it's crazy to take a day off for an event, I just think bachelor party is not a good one.

@Kidstuddi - There is a reason why firms have vacation policies for attorneys and don't have one for SA's. Fulltime longterm employees are expected to take time off. Nobody is going to give an associate shit for taking a day off. An SA just can't take a day off for shits and giggles. So clearly there is some difference here. Associates can take a whole week off, SA's can't. How different will the firm treat it, I don't really know. But saying, hey associates take off for anime conventions, don't a pussy, is bad advice. If the OP was an associate this wouldn't be a question. It's also a bachelor party, not a wedding.

Fulltime workers don't need a reason to take a day off. IMO, SA's do. I'm sure my firm would have asked why I needed a day off.

[IAFG]

I know people who were no offered. One was in a class of 4 people and was told that the firm basically flipped a coin since all the SA's did a great job. I'm sure if one of those SAs took a day for a bachelor party that would have been used as an excuse.

Toward the end of my summer, there was a lot of panicking going on. Every single one of the SAs I was in regular contact with could have made a ten item list of reasons we might get no-offered. Accidentally offended a partner. Got a bad review from a partner who communicated the assignment poorly. Billed too many hours on an assignment and partner was displeased. Turned in an assignment with typos and got called out on it.

The point being, I wouldn't assume at the beginning of your summer that you're not going to fuck anything up. Because the perfectly reasonable request to attend a family celebration might get paired with a few "and alsos" and cost you your offer.

I don't know what anyone else's goals were coming into law school, but I only came to get a job. I've spent time and way too much money pursuing that. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to jeopardize that offer. Now, if we're talking about one of the firms that always offers everyone, like DPW, fine. But if you're talking about a firm that regularly no-offers a couple of people, why would you give them any excuse?

[rad lulz]

I know people who were no offered. One was in a class of 4 people and was told that the firm basically flipped a coin since all the SA's did a great job. I'm sure if one of those SAs took a day for a bachelor party that would have been used as an excuse.

Toward the end of my summer, there was a lot of panicking going on. Every single one of the SAs I was in regular contact with could have made a ten item list of reasons we might get no-offered. Accidentally offended a partner. Got a bad review from a partner who communicated the assignment poorly. Billed too many hours on an assignment and partner was displeased. Turned in an assignment with typos and got called out on it.

The point being, I wouldn't assume at the beginning of your summer that you're not going to fuck anything up. Because the perfectly reasonable request to attend a family celebration might get paired with a few "and alsos" and cost you your offer.

I don't know what anyone else's goals were coming into law school, but I only came to get a job. I've spent time and way too much money pursuing that. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to jeopardize that offer. Now, if we're talking about one of the firms that always offers everyone, like DPW, fine. But if you're talking about a firm that regularly no-offers a couple of people, why would you give them any excuse?

Fucking this

The 3L job search is terrible

[Anonymous User]

I'll offer a different viewpoint that echoes what many have said about it "depending on the firm". I got a call from talent management on a wednesday that my mentor partner wanted to take me out to dinner with his wife that friday. I explained that I was going to one of my best friends bachelors party that friday and wouldn't be able to make it. I walked down to that partner's office and told him the situation and asked if he could do sunday instead. He said monday would be better and we had a great dinner. I'd wait until you get there and feel out the firm.

I think I read you were already there last summer (as I was with this firm and got a permanent offer). You should already know if you can pull it off. I feel bad for you if you are going to a firm that you can't. One more thing for paranoid 2l's going to firms with 30 plus summers, your relationship with talent management/recruitment is probably more important than you realize if cuts need to be made. For the most part all of you will do good work, you would be surprised how much say they have when the hiring committee is making decisions on people they don't know beyond the resumes they had at the start of the summer.

[Icculus]

To be clear, my guess is op could get the time. I just think it is ridiculous to say because people think that it's not the wisest thing to take a day off form an SA those people are sacrificing 'life' for job when in reality it's about impressing the firm to get an offer. If OP were talking about the wedding itself I would tell him there was no worry since I think a firm that didn't understand that would be crazy. However, I think talking to your new employer about a day off for a bachelor party is a bit different. I know people who were no offered. One was in a class of 4 people and was told that the firm basically flipped a coin since all the SA's did a great job. I'm sure if one of those SAs took a day for a bachelor party that would have been used as an excuse.

Of all the no offer stories I have heard, that is the most horrifying

Worst part was this person had other offers but chose this particular firm because she liked the atmosphere and the partners and the fact that the class size was so small. They basically hired one too many and had to let someone go. I have another friend summering there this year (they dropped the class to 2) and he has a wedding for a cousin in Europe that his whole family is going to, he would need a day off to go, and he has decided he is not asking until he gets there because he doesn't want to give them any reason to drop him after what happened last year.

Like I said earlier, before I talked to recruiting about the day I needed I emailed an associate who I had met at a dinner. She explained to me that her summer several people took a day off for a wedding, but that officially the firm has a no summer vacation policy. But, if there was a good reason the firm wasn't going to say no since they know everyone has a life. It was then that I emailed recruiting and explained my situation and was told that being in a wedding was a perfectly acceptable reason to take time during the summer. I suggested my friend do the same thing at his firm and he said no since he doesn't want to create any problems whereby he may get no offered. Two firms, two completely different situations.

As to KidStuddi, a full time job is different, you have earned your vacation days. An SA is not a full time job, it's an attempt to get a full time job. If this was a debeate about whether OP could get to the actual wedding, or a funeral, or a huge family gathering, or the birth of a kid, then yes I would agree people would be sacrificing important life events for work. I still fail to see how a few hours of a bachelor party is sacrificing 'life'. You seem to think that any reason OP may want for a day off is good enough, what many people here are saying is that during the summer not every commitment is equal and therefore not every thing you may need a day off for is worth risking a permanent offer, especially if it is a firm that routinely no offers people.

[reasonable_man]

To those ITT that seem to think that everyone is bat shit crazy and a work-aholic, etc. for telling Op not to risk it... Are any of you practicing attorneys?

[lukertin]

To those ITT that seem to think that everyone is bat shit crazy and a work-aholic, etc. for telling Op not to risk it... Are any of you practicing attorneys?

No, I've just graduated law school and pretend to be employed so my classmates won't laugh at me.

[seatown12]

To those ITT that seem to think that everyone is bat shit crazy and a work-aholic, etc. for telling Op not to risk it... Are any of you practicing attorneys?

This cuts both ways.

The obvious best course of action is to do what Icculus suggested, be an adult, and just ask the firm if he can take the day to help celebrate his brother's wedding.

[reasonable_man]

To those ITT that seem to think that everyone is bat shit crazy and a work-aholic, etc. for telling Op not to risk it... Are any of you practicing attorneys?

No, I've just graduated law school and pretend to be employed so my classmates won't laugh at me.

Makes sense to me.

[lukertin]

To those ITT that seem to think that everyone is bat shit crazy and a work-aholic, etc. for telling Op not to risk it... Are any of you practicing attorneys?

No, I've just graduated law school and pretend to be employed so my classmates won't laugh at me.

Makes sense to me.

You should consider leaving the practice of law, you seem to have lost your humanity.

[Icculus]

To those ITT that seem to think that everyone is bat shit crazy and a work-aholic, etc. for telling Op not to risk it... Are any of you practicing attorneys?

No, I've just graduated law school and pretend to be employed so my classmates won't laugh at me.

Makes sense to me.

You should consider leaving the practice of law, you seem to have lost your humanity.

I think he's just being reasonable.

BA DUMP CHING

[Pokemon]

Reasonable_man is never reasonable. If he was, he would not need to point it out. It is the equivalent of saying "I'm not weird" when on a date.

[romothesavior]

Reasonable_man is never reasonable. If he was, he would not need to point it out. It is the equivalent of saying "I'm not weird" when on a date.

Reasonable Man is the epitome of reasonable. Top 5 poster in the on-topics.

[Icculus]

Reasonable_man is never reasonable. If he was, he would not need to point it out. It is the equivalent of saying "I'm not weird" when on a date.

Reasonable Man is the epitome of reasonable. Top 5 poster in the on-topics.

Agreed.

[lukertin]

Reasonable_man is never reasonable. If he was, he would not need to point it out. It is the equivalent of saying "I'm not weird" when on a date.

Reasonable Man is the epitome of reasonable. Top 5 poster in the on-topics.

Yea but he got baited.

reasonableness -5

[reasonable_man]

Reasonable_man is never reasonable. If he was, he would not need to point it out. It is the equivalent of saying "I'm not weird" when on a date.

Reasonable Man is the epitome of reasonable. Top 5 poster in the on-topics.

Yea but he got baited.

reasonableness -5

Touché...

As for my lost humanity - that's possible. But I don't quite see how losing my humanity will impact my ability to practice law. I seem to be doing just fine without it.

To reiterate, because somehow my position seems to have gotten lost... I take off all the time - for any reason I want to – or no reason at all. I work from home sometimes and sometimes I just don’t work at all. But I've earned that over the last 5 years and when its game time, I’ll move into my office for a week if need be. And for the record, I would have no problem (absolutely no problem at all) with a summer associate assigned to me taking off for a bachelor party (or any other reason for that matter). But the problem is that there are some firms/lawyers that do mind. Some lawyers are straight up fucking nuts. Believe me. So the safe advice here is to avoid the situation or be really careful about how its done. To say to OP, without any other information in hand (like what firm it is we are even talking about), that taking off during an SA in the worst hiring market in more than 30 years is anything but a risky thing to do is sort of irresponsible. 9 out of 10 firms won't care. But what if OP is at the 1 out of 10 firms that do care?