Are the Biglaw junior associate stories true? Forum

[shoeshine]

Does everyone in this thread work in New York? Does everyone on this board work/want to work in New York?

No

[joemoviebuff]

I once worked a 10 hour day on Friday in NYC (8 am to 6 pm), got on a plane to London on Friday evening, flew (first class) to London overnight (~6 hour flight), arrived in London around 8 am on Saturday, showered and suited up in the airport, and then went straight to our London office. I worked until 1 am that Saturday night, and then went back to my hotel, ate dinner (room service is the only thing available at that hour in London), went to sleep around 2 am, and then got back up at 6 am on Sunday to head back into the office. I think we went home around 10 pm that night. I then flew back to NYC that early enough that Monday morning that we wouldn't miss the NYSE open.

This brings back memories. When I was a second year, we had a case with a 100+ page privilege log, and I was the junior associate assigned with proofing and cross-checking it. I was also the only associate on a case pending before the Tenth Circuit, and I drafted the briefs (in retrospect, they were crazy not to get someone more senior in there). We had close family friends with a have-to-attend wedding in London the week the privilege log was due (I gave three months notice that I needed to be gone), and the week before the COA brief was. I pulled two consecutive all-nighters on the privilege log before leaving. I fell asleep in the cab on the way to the airport. I fell asleep on the runway, with a hard copy of the brief in my lap. I woke up when my spouse told me I had to get off the plane in London. We had lunch, and then s/he took a nap to fight off the jet lag. I worked. I woke up at 5:00 AM the first morning there to work. I intended to wake up the next morning to work but overslept. We went to the wedding, and left at midnight after the reception for the airport. We found a corner in Heathrow to camp out, and then my spouse slept on the floor while I worked until our 6:00 AM flight. I worked on the plane until I passed out. My spouse complained about that trip for approximately three years.

The punchline is that this all didn't prevent me from getting yelled at for leaving the privilege log in less-than-polished shape, and yelled at again for having a few embarrassing typos in the brief. (Though the latter was almost entirely local counsel's fault, and we got the COA to reverse, so all's well that ends well.)

Goddamn. Fuck that noise.

[keg411]

Is there a lot of travel in corporate/transactional work or all these stories specific to litigation? I also don't entirely understand the differences between corporate/transactional/litigation.

My sister works in corporate and from what she tells me, corporate is FAR FAR worse than litigation when it comes to predictability of hours. But corporate is also on a much shorter time table overall, and deals usually close and/or die pretty quickly from the time you start working on them. Whereas in litigation the time table for cases is much longer and more spread out (you can work on the same thing for years).

But no, the stories of hellish travel and insane hours are definitely not specific to litigation.

[TatNurner]

Tag

[desertlaw]

At some point, models and bottles will be mentioned in this thread, right? I mean, isn't that part of the job too?

[Doritos]

At some point, models and bottles will be mentioned in this thread, right? I mean, isn't that part of the job too?

I know a guy who said that he worked with a biglaw associate who used to party every night of the week and still billed plenty of hours. He ended up at Heidi Klum's birthday party (for real) somehow. This is a V10 in NYC. So it's possible people. Cling to that sliver of hope

[irie]

Not to highjack, but when does a 1st year associate become a 2nd year? (with salary change and everything else that entails). If you start in ~september, is it after Christmas bonuses? or is your 1st year really 1yr+3months? I can imagine it varying by firm but was wondering if there was a rule-of-thumb.

I'm curious about this as well. I imagine it wouldn't be 1 year + 3 months to become a "second year associate" because the firm would want to bill the client at a higher rate as soon as possible.

As an addendum to the question--I know in NY you are a Law Clerk for a good chunk of your first year because the Bar admission process can take until April/May. What exactly is the distinction between Law Clerk and Associate for corporate/transactional lawyers? Is there anything you can't do as a Law Clerk that you can as an associate w/r/t billable client transactional work? I'm thinking along the lines of the M&A, cap mkts, banking/finance practices.

[desertlaw]

Not to highjack, but when does a 1st year associate become a 2nd year? (with salary change and everything else that entails). If you start in ~september, is it after Christmas bonuses? or is your 1st year really 1yr+3months? I can imagine it varying by firm but was wondering if there was a rule-of-thumb.

I'm curious about this as well. I imagine it wouldn't be 1 year + 3 months to become a "second year associate" because the firm would want to bill the client at a higher rate as soon as possible.

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

[dooood]

Not to highjack, but when does a 1st year associate become a 2nd year? (with salary change and everything else that entails). If you start in ~september, is it after Christmas bonuses? or is your 1st year really 1yr+3months? I can imagine it varying by firm but was wondering if there was a rule-of-thumb.

I'm curious about this as well. I imagine it wouldn't be 1 year + 3 months to become a "second year associate" because the firm would want to bill the client at a higher rate as soon as possible.

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

U mad bro? He just wants to know when he can expect a pay increase, which is relevant to the interests of 99% of the world.

[Stanford4Me]

Does everyone in this thread work in New York? Does everyone on this board work/want to work in New York?

I'll be working in Dallas. From my observations as an SA I noticed that the hours can get hectic even in secondary markets (though nowhere near as bad as NYC), and a big plus--in Dallas at least--was that associates could leave the office and work from home. Overall, the work culture there seems much more laid back, but there are still some stressful times.

[Lawl Shcool]

Not to highjack, but when does a 1st year associate become a 2nd year? (with salary change and everything else that entails). If you start in ~september, is it after Christmas bonuses? or is your 1st year really 1yr+3months? I can imagine it varying by firm but was wondering if there was a rule-of-thumb.

I'm curious about this as well. I imagine it wouldn't be 1 year + 3 months to become a "second year associate" because the firm would want to bill the client at a higher rate as soon as possible.

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

U mad bro? He just wants to know when he can expect a pay increase, which is relevant to the interests of 99% of the world.

I think the safe assumption is that the first few months are just tacked onto the 1st year. We will be pretty worthless, relatively, until we get settled and into our routines at the firm. The twist would be in the firm uses a fiscal year that ends at a different time.

[r6_philly]

Does everyone in this thread work in New York? Does everyone on this board work/want to work in New York?

I'll be working in Dallas. From my observations as an SA I noticed that the hours can get hectic even in secondary markets (though nowhere near as bad as NYC), and a big plus--in Dallas at least--was that associates could leave the office and work from home. Overall, the work culture there seems much more laid back, but there are still some stressful times.

I didn't interview with any NYC firms, but all firms I interviewed with (secondary market) told me I could leave at a reasonable time (6-8, early enough to see kids go to bed, varied by firm) and work from home later. Is face time that important at NYC firms? What about DC?

[Anonymous User]

Does everyone in this thread work in New York? Does everyone on this board work/want to work in New York?

Summered in DC. It depends a lot on the practice area how the hours shake out. If you're doing appellate work and writing Supreme Court briefs you will be working long hours. The regulatory people were out early because they deal w/ the Fed and you know how the Fed feels about working past 5pm.

[irie]

Not to highjack, but when does a 1st year associate become a 2nd year? (with salary change and everything else that entails). If you start in ~september, is it after Christmas bonuses? or is your 1st year really 1yr+3months? I can imagine it varying by firm but was wondering if there was a rule-of-thumb.

I'm curious about this as well. I imagine it wouldn't be 1 year + 3 months to become a "second year associate" because the firm would want to bill the client at a higher rate as soon as possible.

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

Thank you for your utterly useless contribution and embarrassingly irrelevant analogy. Now please keep your mouth shut and let the people who have something worthwhile to say add their input.

[Anonymous User]

At most firms, the "stub year" doesn't count for class-year purposes. So if you start in October of 2012, you'll be a second-year associate as of January 1, 2014.

Fiscal year matters more for bonus calculation. I know one firm bases the bonus calculation on September -> September.

[Anonymous User]

Starting at V-50 in Silicon Valley. Does anyone have any insight on this?

[desertlaw]

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

Thank you for your utterly useless contribution and embarrassingly irrelevant analogy. Now please keep your mouth shut and let the people who have something worthwhile to say add their input.

I hope your firm has a celebration for you on the day when you become an important "Second Year Associate," as well as brand new projects, responsibilities, and secretaries. I also hope they give you a new office with a big gold star on the front door. It sounds like you need this type of thing.

[mirodh]

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

Thank you for your utterly useless contribution and embarrassingly irrelevant analogy. Now please keep your mouth shut and let the people who have something worthwhile to say add their input.

I hope your firm has a celebration for you on the day when you become an important "Second Year Associate," as well as brand new projects, responsibilities, and secretaries. I also hope they give you a new office with a big gold star on the front door. It sounds like you need this type of thing.

I hope your firm refuses to give you a pay raise to the appropriate 2nd-year level. It sounds like you have no need to repay loans or plan for your future.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

Thank you for your utterly useless contribution and embarrassingly irrelevant analogy. Now please keep your mouth shut and let the people who have something worthwhile to say add their input.

I hope your firm has a celebration for you on the day when you become an important "Second Year Associate," as well as brand new projects, responsibilities, and secretaries. I also hope they give you a new office with a big gold star on the front door. It sounds like you need this type of thing.

If you don't want the extra $10k per year (plus the increased bonus), you can go ahead and send it my way, thanks.

[irie]

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

Thank you for your utterly useless contribution and embarrassingly irrelevant analogy. Now please keep your mouth shut and let the people who have something worthwhile to say add their input.

I hope your firm has a celebration for you on the day when you become an important "Second Year Associate," as well as brand new projects, responsibilities, and secretaries. I also hope they give you a new office with a big gold star on the front door. It sounds like you need this type of thing.

Why are you still squeaking? I thought I told you to hush. Now run along and eat the kibbles I put in your bowl.

[Doritos]

Who cares exactly how this works exactly. You are like the child that says, "I'm 6 and a quarter years old, almost 6 and a half!"

We've lived our lives in terms of moving from the 6th grade classroom, to 7th grade, to 8th. All with clear distinctions. Companies aren't as rigid with you. Even though firms are lock-step for pay typically, you aren't going to switch offices/partners/assignments between your last day of 1st Year Associate and first day 2nd Year Associate.

Thank you for your utterly useless contribution and embarrassingly irrelevant analogy. Now please keep your mouth shut and let the people who have something worthwhile to say add their input.

I hope your firm has a celebration for you on the day when you become an important "Second Year Associate," as well as brand new projects, responsibilities, and secretaries. I also hope they give you a new office with a big gold star on the front door. It sounds like you need this type of thing.

I hope your firm refuses to give you a pay raise to the appropriate 2nd-year level. It sounds like you have no need to repay loans or plan for your future.

You missed his point brah.

[irie]

At most firms, the "stub year" doesn't count for class-year purposes. So if you start in October of 2012, you'll be a second-year associate as of January 1, 2014.

Fiscal year matters more for bonus calculation. I know one firm bases the bonus calculation on September -> September.

Ah okay, guess this makes sense so that people who start in the same class year aren't being paid on different scales at the same time.

[desertlaw]

I hope your firm has a celebration for you on the day when you become an important "Second Year Associate," as well as brand new projects, responsibilities, and secretaries. I also hope they give you a new office with a big gold star on the front door. It sounds like you need this type of thing.

If you don't want the extra $10k per year (plus the increased bonus), you can go ahead and send it my way, thanks.

You finally figured me out - I just don't want that money.

Or, maybe I think it's not important to know right now what exact day/week I'm getting paid that extra coin when it's going to come anyways. Especially when that time is approx 16 months (3L) or 28 months from now.

Regardless, PM me and I promise that I'll order/send you some take-out wings/Chinese food when you become an official 2nd year associate. Seriously, I will. I want to celebrate with you if it's that important to you.

[Curious1]

So getting back on track, this thread kind of terrifies me.

[Doritos]

So getting back on track, this thread kind of terrifies me.

Yeah, biglaw is demanding that's for sure. Then again, what job can you think of that pays your north of 100k in your mid-20s that isn't really demanding? I guess you could invent facebook or be an heiress. I think it's good for threads like this to exist so people can get in their mind that, though the pay is nice, you really are going to be making some life trade offs and because of this you really should avoid the golden handcuffs. All the associates I know put that near the top of the list when it comes to advice for new associates. Don't structure your life in a way where you are dependent on that biglaw paycheck because maybe you don't want to live like that down the line but if you have big debt and you've just been paying the interest on your loans you may be stuck.

The moral of this thread to me is to pay off your debt ASAP by maintaining a quality of life just above that of a hobo so you are not shackled to the cruel mistress of biglaw for one second longer than you have to be