Detailed C/O 2011 UN-Employment Data Forum

[rayiner]

One of the advantages of Rayiner's analysis is it undervalues outcomes. Sure, some jobs at smaller firms/academia/business and industry are good jobs, but the majority are shitty outcomes. I'd rather base things on the necessary good outcomes as everything from there is icing.

The goal is definitely to be conservative. That being said, there are sources of optimism in my methodology. E.g. counting half of business/industry as good jobs is probably too optimistic except at schools with big JD/MBA programs.

[Bronck]

One of the advantages of Rayiner's analysis is it undervalues outcomes. Sure, some jobs at smaller firms/academia/business and industry are good jobs, but the majority are shitty outcomes. I'd rather base things on the necessary good outcomes as everything from there is icing.

+1

[cjcregg]

Unemployment data for most of the T18 in tabular form:

Rayiner, when you come up w/ the final percentages you are weighting each category equivalently?

Edit: I think what you're doing is simply totaling and calculating those percents in terms of the entire class... Don't you think though that having no job at all is worse than say a business job? Or no..

[whitman]

I'm shocked the TroLS haven't created new law school tier acronyms on this thread yet. Come on TroLS, rayiner did all the work for you.

[rayiner]

Unemployment data for most of the T18 in tabular form:

Rayiner, when you come up w/ the final percentages you are weighting each category equivalently?

Edit: I think what you're doing is simply totaling and calculating those percents in terms of the entire class... Don't you think though that having no job at all is worse than say a business job? Or no..

I'm not weighting. I should probably report the sub-totals for not working versus underemployed. To an extent there isn't much meaning in that. Someone unemployed could get a job at Starbucks and be reported as working in "business."

[rayiner]

Someone has been reading this thread, LOL: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eaven.html (scroll past the transfer stuff to the U Chicago stats).

[Bronck]

Someone has been reading this thread, LOL: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eaven.html (scroll past the transfer stuff to the U Chicago stats).

LOL nice

[sunynp]

Someone has been reading this thread, LOL: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eaven.html (scroll past the transfer stuff to the U Chicago stats).

LOL nice

Maybe Campos will use your data to make a post! Better update that Texas data on school funded jobs. He might think they are lying, like I did.

I myself was surprised that overall about 7% of the grads from these schools get a school funded job. That seems like a high number to me, and maybe I added it wrong, but that is a significant number of graduates from basically top schools. Without those school funded jobs, that would be just flat out unemployment. I realize the stipends are a force for good in terms of helping students get jobs down the line if they are into PI. So I am in favor of schools supporting students. But like you (rayiner) said, those students are not really employed for purposes of employment statistics.

[rayiner]

Updated main post with easier-to-digest data, included HYS and NYU.

[RedBirds2011]

Someone has been reading this thread, LOL: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eaven.html (scroll past the transfer stuff to the U Chicago stats).

He has done this with like 3 other TLS threads. Maybe even more, but I haven't been counting. It's absolutely hysterical.

[Bronck]

Someone has been reading this thread, LOL: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eaven.html (scroll past the transfer stuff to the U Chicago stats).

He has done this with like 3 other TLS threads. Maybe even more, but I haven't been counting. It's absolutely hysterical.

Hey, what can ya say... I guess we're a good source for info.

[OperaSoprano]

Great job with this thread, though I do want to point out that schools should not be demonized for creating a lot of fellowship positions (esp if they are full time). I came to see firsthand that a lot of organizations badly, badly need these people, and would hire them directly if they could. Most new grads who want PI jobs, even if they are supremely qualified, will have a tough time finding paying work right now, even coming from YLS. It's a simple matter of organization funding. While I do think some people unable to get biglaw jobs take school fellowships as an alternative to not working, it is also false to claim no one would take them if they had higher paying options. People take PI jobs over higher paying options all the time, or there would be vastly fewer people working in PI.

Creating fellowships is an intelligent response to the contraction in PI/govt hiring. As schools do benefit from counting these students as employed, however, they need to disclose how many positions they fund, and crucially, if these positions are full time and offer enough in pay/benefits to live on.

[manofjustice]

Is anybody noticing a softening of reported firm salaries on law school employment statistics pages?

[rayiner]

Great job with this thread, though I do want to point out that schools should not be demonized for creating a lot of fellowship positions (esp if they are full time). I came to see firsthand that a lot of organizations badly, badly need these people, and would hire them directly if they could. Most new grads who want PI jobs, even if they are supremely qualified, will have a tough time finding paying work right now, even coming from YLS. It's a simple matter of organization funding. While I do think some people unable to get biglaw jobs take school fellowships as an alternative to not working, it is also false to claim no one would take them if they had higher paying options. People take PI jobs over higher paying options all the time, or there would be vastly fewer people working in PI.

Creating fellowships is an intelligent response to the contraction in PI/govt hiring. As schools do benefit from counting these students as employed, however, they need to disclose how many positions they fund, and crucially, if these positions are full time and offer enough in pay/benefits to live on.

I agree. I think particularly for PI people, fellowships are a great idea. However, I think it's dishonest of schools like Virginia to report such fellowships as "full-time, long-term, bar-required" jobs on the ABA data.

I'm a total Northwestern troll, but I think NU deserves a ton of credit for how it reports school-funded jobs. They don't count any of their school-funded graduates in the full-time, long-term category on their ABA form, and do not include them in the "public interest/government" category on their website. Instead, they report them as a separate category with the note:

"1 'Law School Funded' includes all graduates working in positions funded by the law school. The ABA only requires that graduates working on a short-term basis be reported as law school funded and the ABA placement summary includes such individuals within the totals for the employment type category in which they were working. In order to portray increased transparency we have denoted all law school funded individuals in a standalone category regardless of long-term or short-term status. Therefore, individuals in this category have been backed out of the totals for the employment type category in which they were employed."

[manofjustice]

Agreed. No one is saying the schools shouldn't create these positions. We're saying they shouldn't be included in employment score for the purpose of USNWR ranking. Based on these positions, schools can report increased expenditures per student, but not long term, bar required jobs.

[cahwc12]

Any word on when we can expect something like this for c/o 2012?

How strong is the correlation between un/underemployed and class rank?

[justonemoregame]

I think the ABA releases this data in April, so we've got a while.

[rayiner]

Any word on when we can expect something like this for c/o 2012?

How strong is the correlation between un/underemployed and class rank?

Probably next summer. The correlation isn't super strong.

[cahwc12]

Any word on when we can expect something like this for c/o 2012?

How strong is the correlation between un/underemployed and class rank?

Probably next summer. The correlation isn't super strong.

What do you suppose then is the major correlative factor, if not class rank?

[rayiner]

Any word on when we can expect something like this for c/o 2012?

How strong is the correlation between un/underemployed and class rank?

Probably next summer. The correlation isn't super strong.

What do you suppose then is the major correlative factor, if not class rank?

Probably PI-focus versus firm-focus. People who want to do PI/gov are disproportionately unemployed. After that is probably grades, with personality close behind.

I don't mean to say that grades don't matter, because they do, but rather the correlation is less than I used to think as a 1L. The 25% of the class that's unemployed is nothing like the bottom 25%. The bottom 40% is over represented, but there are lots of median or too half people who just don't interview well, bid poorly, bet the farm on DOJ, etc.

[thelawyler]

Any word on when we can expect something like this for c/o 2012?

How strong is the correlation between un/underemployed and class rank?

Probably next summer. The correlation isn't super strong.

What do you suppose then is the major correlative factor, if not class rank?

Probably PI-focus versus firm-focus. People who want to do PI/gov are disproportionately unemployed. After that is probably grades, with personality close behind.

I don't mean to say that grades don't matter, because they do, but rather the correlation is less than I used to think as a 1L. The 25% of the class that's unemployed is nothing like the bottom 25%. The bottom 40% is over represented, but there are lots of median or too half people who just don't interview well, bid poorly, bet the farm on DOJ, etc.

This is very encouraging to hear for a guy gunning for firms, but I guess it sucks a lot for PI people.

[XxSpyKEx]

Now that's scary