Small Firm Hiring Partner Here For Any Questions. Forum

[legalese_retard]

I worked for a medium sized firm for two years and I am currently doing a 2-year clerkship. I will be re-applying to firms next year, but almost all the job announcements for small/medium firms want salary requirements.

(1) What do you recommend is the best way for a lateral to address the salary requirement question? Is it best to give a single dollar amount, a salary range, simply saying "market," or list a number with a long explaination as to why you are worth that amount?

(2) How do you know what dollar amount to ask for or what a firm will pay?

I ask this because there is no consistency among the firms I worked at and where my friends are at. My old firm had 50 attorneys and paid $77K/year to first years (no annual billables, mass tort/class action plaintiffs firm); another firm I summered at had 35 attorneys and paid $115K/year to first years (1800 billable, real estate/commercial lit); a friend works at a 6-attorney firm that paid $135K/year (2000 billable, appellate boutique); and I applied to a 15-attorney firm that only offer $65K/year (2200 billable, insurance defense) for first years. Given the wide range of salaries, I am fearful about listing my salary requirements. Besides asking around, how in the world can you tell what a firm will pay per year? I remember interviewing at a 10-attorney construction law firm and being laughed out of the interview when I said $75K/year was my requested salary with a 1800 billable requirement. I realize practice area is influential, but I have no idea what is the salary ranges for practice areas, experience level, and other factors.

Thanks!

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

How much do ties matter in light of other factors? For instance, I have traveled all over and know cities in which I'd like to live after school. Though I have no ties to XYZ city, if I were to interview with your firm and cite reasons the area appeals to me (safe for kids/families, offers great recreational opportunities, etc...), would that quell any fears you might have due to me having no ties?

Honestly, you need to do a good selling job both in your cover letter and the interview. Also, you better not have something on the internet that will show otherwise. This year for our SA program I had a resume from a pretty impressive candidate from good law school in the north central US. Gave me the standard stuff about wanting to practice in St. Louis. Her facebook page said how much she missed her boyfriend in an adjoining state and could not wait to be with him after school. Sell it in a persuasive way. You better know a lot about the city. Some bigger firms will grill you and ask you tricky questions about certain things about their town. Need to work on your "etc." It always seems more believable if they say they have family or friends in the city as well. I don't want to minimize this, it is a big concern. SA programs are not money makers but long term investments.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. I have a few myself. First, I'm a 2L and will be at a smaller firm this summer, but am still interested in working for a bigger firm after graduation for a few years. If I were to send out applications to other firms in the same city (think Denver-sized legal market), do you think it would get back to my summer firm and they would avoid giving me an offer at the end of the summer? If so, is there a way around that gamble?

Second, how do you view students that manage to get published while in school? Does it matter more or less for bigger firms? Or is getting published only really relevant for clerkship applications?

I don't think it would get back to them. While I have discussions in general with peers about hiring, we never get to that level of detail (nor do I want to share who I am considering in case they try to steal them ). Perhaps in a much smaller town but highly unlikely in the scenario you describe. As to being published, I think it matters to all firms big or small with sophisticated practices. We all value excellence in writing. Our second to last hire was the executive editor of her school's law review and she does excellent work and is highly valued by our firm. She spent both summers with us so we saw her in action but it does matter. Come to think of it, I think all of our associates but one had articles published or were high level editors. If that does not address the question, let me know.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

I worked for a medium sized firm for two years and I am currently doing a 2-year clerkship. I will be re-applying to firms next year, but almost all the job announcements for small/medium firms want salary requirements.
1) What do you recommend is the best way for a lateral to address the salary requirement question? Is it best to give a single dollar amount, a salary range, simply saying "market," or list a number with a long explaination as to why you are worth that amount? (2) How do you know what dollar amount to ask for or what a firm will pay?
I ask this because there is no consistency among the firms I worked at and where my friends are at. My old firm had 50 attorneys and paid $77K/year to first years (no annual billables, mass tort/class action plaintiffs firm); another firm I summered at had 35 attorneys and paid $115K/year to first years (1800 billable, real estate/commercial lit); a friend works at a 6-attorney firm that paid $135K/year (2000 billable, appellate boutique); and I applied to a 15-attorney firm that only offer $65K/year (2200 billable, insurance defense) for first years. Given the wide range of salaries, I am fearful about listing my salary requirements. Besides asking around, how in the world can you tell what a firm will pay per year? I remember interviewing at a 10-attorney construction law firm and being laughed out of the interview when I said $75K/year was my requested salary with a 1800 billable requirement. I realize practice area is influential, but I have no idea what is the salary ranges for practice areas, experience level, and other factors.
Thanks!

As your summary indicates, there is some correlation of hours requirements to salary. We ask our associates every few years what they think. We currently have 1750 and paid $ 74,000 for a new grad last year. Our associates voted to keep our hours requirement where it was even knowing that we would increase salary if they billed more hours. Most reputable business firms are lock step. This means the salary should pretty much be set. I am suspicious of firms that are trying to bargain you down when you are at a disadvantage. My suggestion would be to say consistent with what you pay the other associates taking into account graduation dates. There is only a few/several thousand dollar difference in our firm between years. If people want to make more money in our firm they can either bill more hours and get a bonus and/or bring in some business.

[kalvano]

How much do ties matter in light of other factors? For instance, I have traveled all over and know cities in which I'd like to live after school. Though I have no ties to XYZ city, if I were to interview with your firm and cite reasons the area appeals to me (safe for kids/families, offers great recreational opportunities, etc...), would that quell any fears you might have due to me having no ties?

Honestly, you need to do a good selling job both in your cover letter and the interview. Also, you better not have something on the internet that will show otherwise. This year for our SA program I had a resume from a pretty impressive candidate from good law school in the north central US. Gave me the standard stuff about wanting to practice in St. Louis. Her facebook page said how much she missed her boyfriend in an adjoining state and could not wait to be with him after school. Sell it in a persuasive way. You better know a lot about the city. Some bigger firms will grill you and ask you tricky questions about certain things about their town. Need to work on your "etc." It always seems more believable if they say they have family or friends in the city as well. I don't want to minimize this, it is a big concern. SA programs are not money makers but long term investments.

I had a PM conversation about this, regarding my cover letter. I can share some of the insights the OP gave me if (s)he is amenable to it.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

How much do ties matter in light of other factors? For instance, I have traveled all over and know cities in which I'd like to live after school. Though I have no ties to XYZ city, if I were to interview with your firm and cite reasons the area appeals to me (safe for kids/families, offers great recreational opportunities, etc...), would that quell any fears you might have due to me having no ties?

Honestly, you need to do a good selling job both in your cover letter and the interview. Also, you better not have something on the internet that will show otherwise. This year for our SA program I had a resume from a pretty impressive candidate from good law school in the north central US. Gave me the standard stuff about wanting to practice in St. Louis. Her facebook page said how much she missed her boyfriend in an adjoining state and could not wait to be with him after school. Sell it in a persuasive way. You better know a lot about the city. Some bigger firms will grill you and ask you tricky questions about certain things about their town. Need to work on your "etc." It always seems more believable if they say they have family or friends in the city as well. I don't want to minimize this, it is a big concern. SA programs are not money makers but long term investments.

I had a PM conversation about this, regarding my cover letter. I can share some of the insights the OP gave me if (s)he is amenable to it.

How about by PM.

[kalvano]

How much do ties matter in light of other factors? For instance, I have traveled all over and know cities in which I'd like to live after school. Though I have no ties to XYZ city, if I were to interview with your firm and cite reasons the area appeals to me (safe for kids/families, offers great recreational opportunities, etc...), would that quell any fears you might have due to me having no ties?

Honestly, you need to do a good selling job both in your cover letter and the interview. Also, you better not have something on the internet that will show otherwise. This year for our SA program I had a resume from a pretty impressive candidate from good law school in the north central US. Gave me the standard stuff about wanting to practice in St. Louis. Her facebook page said how much she missed her boyfriend in an adjoining state and could not wait to be with him after school. Sell it in a persuasive way. You better know a lot about the city. Some bigger firms will grill you and ask you tricky questions about certain things about their town. Need to work on your "etc." It always seems more believable if they say they have family or friends in the city as well. I don't want to minimize this, it is a big concern. SA programs are not money makers but long term investments.

I had a PM conversation about this, regarding my cover letter. I can share some of the insights the OP gave me if (s)he is amenable to it.

How about by PM.

Fine by me.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

[


How about by PM.[/quote]


Fine by me.[/quote]


Can't exactly remember what I said . If enough people are interested, I can go look it up and post the portions relevant and not personal to you.

[kalvano]

Can't exactly remember what I said . If enough people are interested, I can go look it up and post the portions relevant and not personal to you.

Either way...I just meant I would be happy to share some of the general advice you gave me, since it was directly pertinent to what he was asking.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

Can't exactly remember what I said . If enough people are interested, I can go look it up and post the portions relevant and not personal to you.

Either way...I just meant I would be happy to share some of the general advice you gave me, since it was directly pertinent to what he was asking.

Ok, either way by me too. I was just concerned about anything personal about you that you may not want revealed.

[kalvano]

Can't exactly remember what I said . If enough people are interested, I can go look it up and post the portions relevant and not personal to you.

Either way...I just meant I would be happy to share some of the general advice you gave me, since it was directly pertinent to what he was asking.

Ok, either way by me too. I was just concerned about anything personal about you that you may not want revealed.

Thanks for looking out. I'll kind of summarize everything I've gathered from a variety of sources, and please feel free to correct me on anything.

1) Firms understand that people want to move and don't always go to school in that particular area. It's a red flag, but it's not an auto ding at most places. Some firms just only hire locally and that's that, nothing you can do about it. But most firms will consider people from out of the area if their application is solid and in-line with what the firm generally looks for. The "ties" thing is certainly a legit concern, but somewhat overblown on TLS.

2) My strategy, which the OP here said seemed pretty good, is to address it in the first paragraph of my cover letter. I wrote:

"At the outset, I would like to address my desire to relocate to -------, as I understand that may be an area of concern. While I elected to stay in Texas for law school for family reasons, my wife and I have a strong desire to raise our family ----. We have many friends in the area, and have visited several times, finding it a much more preferable place to live and work. My wife has already begun the process to get her teaching license in the area, and is looking forward to working in the excellent school system in -----. Please don’t hesitate to contact me to resolve any specific concerns you may have. "


There are pros and cons to it. It's kind of a negative thing to put in a cover letter, but at the same time, you have to address it somewhere. I tried not to make it a negative, but instead just acknowledge that there is a concern there, give some reasons, and move on. If someone won't consider you, then there isn't much you can do about it.

3) The more personal your ties, the better. "OOOOHHH!! PRETTY MOUNTAINS" won't cut it. It helps if you're married and mention your spouse, because it seems to connote that this just isn't a spur of the moment thing, that there is someone else that has been consulted and a joint decision made. Aside from that, having a family makes you less likely to bolt.

4) Your school rank will matter, but it's not the be-all, end-all. If there is a local school, it helps to be relatively close to that school's rank. Odds are, if it's a smaller firm, they haven't even heard of your school, so they will Google it and see where it ranks. If it's respectably ranked (like top 50 or so), then you should be fine. Obviously it's different for T14 schools.

5) You probably have a better shot at smaller / midsized firms than the large firms in the area, for some odd reason.



In general, it's possible to go outside the area, but assuming you aren't in a T14, it's going to be harder to do and will require a lot more effort on your part to contact the firms and be proactive. Your Career Services won't be of much help. Contacting alumni in the area and enlisting their aid is a great resource.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

Maybe the only difference is that with a smaller firm it is a bigger deal. They look at a SA as an investment they can reap the rewards from when they start full time with a leg up on how the firm operates. This year I immediately put in the reject pile anyone I thought was likely not going to stay.

[kalvano]

Maybe the only difference is that with a smaller firm it is a bigger deal. They look at a SA as an investment they can reap the rewards from when they start full time with a leg up on how the firm operates. This year I immediately put in the reject pile anyone I thought was likely not going to stay.

Right, absolutely. But I meant, with that last part, that a smaller firm is more likely to consider you, assuming you can prove to their satisfaction that you're going to stay. A large firm may not even give you the chance to try and explain it.

Which actually brings up a question I asked in another thread, but is perfect for you. Does someone with top grades at a top school represent more of a risk to you than someone with decent grades from a respectable but not top school? In other words, does the fact that the person from the top school has more options give you pause?

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

Maybe the only difference is that with a smaller firm it is a bigger deal. They look at a SA as an investment they can reap the rewards from when they start full time with a leg up on how the firm operates. This year I immediately put in the reject pile anyone I thought was likely not going to stay.

Right, absolutely. But I meant, with that last part, that a smaller firm is more likely to consider you, assuming you can prove to their satisfaction that you're going to stay. A large firm may not even give you the chance to try and explain it.
Which actually brings up a question I asked in another thread, but is perfect for you. Does someone with top grades at a top school represent more of a risk to you than someone with decent grades from a respectable but not top school? In other words, does the fact that the person from the top school has more options give you pause?

Great question. With someone like that, we look to see if they have had some prior legal experience to know the difference between large and small and if they seem confident they want the smaller environment. The associate I mentioned above that spent 2 summers with us and is with us now full time is somewhat similar. She was #5 in her class when she interviewed with us and ended up # 3. Her husband was an attorney who graduated from a top 20 school a few years before so she was pretty well versed on the options and convinced us she wanted our environment. She even patterned her classes on our practice areas. Perhaps of interest was another situation with a different outcome. Now it was 2007, but again offered a single digiter at a top school (and was from our town) and the person was super excited, went to OCS to tell them of the acceptance and OCS said you have to go through OCI and cannot accept that offer. The person called us back considerably disturbed but we let them out of the acceptance obviously. Of course, times have considerably changed.

[Flash]

How do you go about asking what a firm's billable requirements are?

[20160810]

How much do ties matter in light of other factors? For instance, I have traveled all over and know cities in which I'd like to live after school. Though I have no ties to XYZ city, if I were to interview with your firm and cite reasons the area appeals to me (safe for kids/families, offers great recreational opportunities, etc...), would that quell any fears you might have due to me having no ties?

Honestly, you need to do a good selling job both in your cover letter and the interview. Also, you better not have something on the internet that will show otherwise. This year for our SA program I had a resume from a pretty impressive candidate from good law school in the north central US. Gave me the standard stuff about wanting to practice in St. Louis. Her facebook page said how much she missed her boyfriend in an adjoining state and could not wait to be with him after school. Sell it in a persuasive way. You better know a lot about the city. Some bigger firms will grill you and ask you tricky questions about certain things about their town. Need to work on your "etc." It always seems more believable if they say they have family or friends in the city as well. I don't want to minimize this, it is a big concern. SA programs are not money makers but long term investments.

When it comes to the whole "ties to the area" schtick, for someone without convincing ties to STL, would you prefer if they tried to offer the standard stuff in their cover letter about wanting to work in STL, or would you rather they were just honest and said something like "Look, I have never lived in STL, but I've been there a few times, I think it's a nice place, and I'm willing to relocate for a job that's a good fit for me." It strikes me that the emphasis small firms put on local ties just ends up causing a lot of applicants to make up phony sisters living in every city of the US.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

How do you go about asking what a firm's billable requirements are?

Just ask what is the firm's requirement. I get asked that all the time. I don't think it reflects any concern about working hard. To me it shows you understand there is a business side to the practice. Also, as mentioned above, there is a correlation of pay to hours requirements.

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

When it comes to the whole "ties to the area" schtick, for someone without convincing ties to STL, would you prefer if they tried to offer the standard stuff in their cover letter about wanting to work in STL, or would you rather they were just honest and said something like "Look, I have never lived in STL, but I've been there a few times, I think it's a nice place, and I'm willing to relocate for a job that's a good fit for me." It strikes me that the emphasis small firms put on local ties just ends up causing a lot of applicants to make up phony sisters living in every city of the US.[/quote]


There is no perfect answer to this. Personally, I prefer something other than the normal schtick. It would have to be more than I think it is a nice place. Show you know some unique things about the town you enjoy. For STL, like the hill for eating. At least it shows you are trying to persuade me then it is up to me to decide if I am convinced. The interview process, of course, is not perfect and I have made errors in judgment along the way. But I have done this quite a while and my bs barometer is pretty good and imagine my peers have the same.

[lostlawman]

How do you evaluate grades/class rank when comparing schools of different quality? For example, top 10% at a T1 would be different than top 10% at TTT. Where do you start to draw the line of giving the advantage to the applicant that has higher grades at a lower ranked school or lower grades at a higher school? I am curious specifically comparing TTT to TT or TTTT. Would top 10% at TTTT be comparable to top 1/3 at TTT? Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

On the first page, you mentioned that your firm has given out job offers to summer associates with "some small slippage in grades." How much of a factor is 2L grades for you? Would would constitute a "big drop?"

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

How do you evaluate grades/class rank when comparing schools of different quality? For example, top 10% at a T1 would be different than top 10% at TTT. Where do you start to draw the line of giving the advantage to the applicant that has higher grades at a lower ranked school or lower grades at a higher school? I am curious specifically comparing TTT to TT or TTTT. Would top 10% at TTTT be comparable to top 1/3 at TTT? Thanks.

Certainly it is a factor. We generally advertise that we prefer people in the top 20% of their class. That has not prevented people with a lower percentage from higher tiered firms from applying. Actually, it catches my interest if the cover letter is written persuasively to convince me that the lower percentile from the higher school is still an achievement. I view cover letters as the opportunity of an applicant to show their skill at persuasive writing. Percentages are always somewhat of an issue. I has some resumes with no percentages and just grade point numbers. For a firm like ours, we tend to focus on percentages even though as you correctly point out, you have to look at the whole picture. But when I get a resume with a 3.3 from Case Western, I really don't know what that means (and still don't know).

[Sm Firm Hiring P]

On the first page, you mentioned that your firm has given out job offers to summer associates with "some small slippage in grades." How much of a factor is 2L grades for you? Would would constitute a "big drop?"

2L grades are still a significant factor, especially if the student took classes in our areas of practice. A big drop to me would be around 10% or more. There can always be reasons such a working a lot or other things we might take into account. But remember, in this market when we have so many applicants, it is easier for the firms to be very picky.

[quakeroats]

On the first page, you mentioned that your firm has given out job offers to summer associates with "some small slippage in grades." How much of a factor is 2L grades for you? Would would constitute a "big drop?"

2L grades are still a significant factor, especially if the student took classes in our areas of practice. A big drop to me would be around 10% or more. There can always be reasons such a working a lot or other things we might take into account. But remember, in this market when we have so many applicants, it is easier for the firms to be very picky.

How has grade-based hiring worked for you long term? Do you use grades because you don't see a ready alternative? Have they predicted success? If so, what kind of results do you get out of grads with high GPAs that you don't from those with lower GPAs?

Do you think a business-school banking model (grades are unimportant, hiring process lasts the better part of 6 months, employer observes the candidates in many situations including doing things that approximate actual work, etc.) would work better?

[kalvano]

I worked for a medium sized firm for two years and I am currently doing a 2-year clerkship. I will be re-applying to firms next year, but almost all the job announcements for small/medium firms want salary requirements.
1) What do you recommend is the best way for a lateral to address the salary requirement question? Is it best to give a single dollar amount, a salary range, simply saying "market," or list a number with a long explaination as to why you are worth that amount? (2) How do you know what dollar amount to ask for or what a firm will pay?
I ask this because there is no consistency among the firms I worked at and where my friends are at. My old firm had 50 attorneys and paid $77K/year to first years (no annual billables, mass tort/class action plaintiffs firm); another firm I summered at had 35 attorneys and paid $115K/year to first years (1800 billable, real estate/commercial lit); a friend works at a 6-attorney firm that paid $135K/year (2000 billable, appellate boutique); and I applied to a 15-attorney firm that only offer $65K/year (2200 billable, insurance defense) for first years. Given the wide range of salaries, I am fearful about listing my salary requirements. Besides asking around, how in the world can you tell what a firm will pay per year? I remember interviewing at a 10-attorney construction law firm and being laughed out of the interview when I said $75K/year was my requested salary with a 1800 billable requirement. I realize practice area is influential, but I have no idea what is the salary ranges for practice areas, experience level, and other factors.
Thanks!

As your summary indicates, there is some correlation of hours requirements to salary. We ask our associates every few years what they think. We currently have 1750 and paid $ 74,000 for a new grad last year. Our associates voted to keep our hours requirement where it was even knowing that we would increase salary if they billed more hours. Most reputable business firms are lock step. This means the salary should pretty much be set. I am suspicious of firms that are trying to bargain you down when you are at a disadvantage. My suggestion would be to say consistent with what you pay the other associates taking into account graduation dates. There is only a few/several thousand dollar difference in our firm between years. If people want to make more money in our firm they can either bill more hours and get a bonus and/or bring in some business.

Out of curiosity, what is the average year-to-year raise (if any) at your firm, and the average bonus?

[Flash]

On the first page, you mentioned that your firm has given out job offers to summer associates with "some small slippage in grades." How much of a factor is 2L grades for you? Would would constitute a "big drop?"

2L grades are still a significant factor, especially if the student took classes in our areas of practice. A big drop to me would be around 10% or more. There can always be reasons such a working a lot or other things we might take into account. But remember, in this market when we have so many applicants, it is easier for the firms to be very picky.

So if a 1L summer fit in well with the firm culture and had good work product, your firm would throw away the thousands of dollars invested in them because of a 15% drop in grades? That seems crazy to me.