More Emory employment transparency Forum

[ggocat]

but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Students still want their school to look good--more students desiring to attend means higher LSAT/UGPA, which means better reputation of the school.

[Noval]

I'm willing to bet my free ride that most, if not all people who voted "Midsize Law Firm" are in Shit Law right now but were too big pussies to admit the truth.

[ResolutePear]

And I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure less people smoke now than they did before they were aware of the risks.

Check various tobacco company's earnings.

[traehekat]

but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Students still want their school to look good--more students desiring to attend means higher LSAT/UGPA, which means better reputation of the school.

i just dont think in the real world that is going to make any difference for 3Ls. it's not like they are going to release this data, and then medians are going to drop, and then employers are going to notice this, and all of a sudden stop hiring from that school. first of all, the reputation of a school is already set in stone for most employers. they don't change their minds just because fordham moves up or down a few spots in the rankings, or their LSAT median drops a few points. in fact, i would be quite surprised if they even noticed.

[vilmy2012]

These numbers aren't as bad as I thought. Based on reading, emorylawstudent.com, these hiring numbers are amazing. That place had me scared that <10% were employed.

[ResolutePear]

Found this laying around. Seemed relevant.

[FGCUguy123]

but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Students still want their school to look good--more students desiring to attend means higher LSAT/UGPA, which means better reputation of the school.

i just dont think in the real world that is going to make any difference for 3Ls. it's not like they are going to release this data, and then medians are going to drop, and then employers are going to notice this, and all of a sudden stop hiring from that school. first of all, the reputation of a school is already set in stone for most employers. they don't change their minds just because fordham moves up or down a few spots in the rankings, or their LSAT median drops a few points. in fact, i would be quite surprised if they even noticed.

This is the key. An employer that is an Emory alum would not care that it dropped 8 spots.

[MrAnon]

People are not circulating surveys because they are risk adverse types and are afraid they would somehow get in trouble for doing this.

quite possible, but honestly what kind of "trouble" could anyone get in for doing this?

None. Law students aren't exactly risk taking types and the LS atmosphere doesn't foster a rock the boat mentality.

[traehekat]

Law students aren't exactly risk taking types

oh god, the irony is making me sick.

[FiveSermon]

Law students aren't exactly risk taking types

oh god, the irony is making me sick.

This. Law school is a risk for everyone who isn't attending HYS or going with tons of $.

[ResolutePear]

Law students aren't exactly risk taking types

oh god, the irony is making me sick.

This. Law school is a risk for everyone who isn't attending HYS or going with tons of $.

HYS?

Why not YHS?

Either way, nothing is a sure thing.

[swc65]

Found this laying around. Seemed relevant.

it isn't.

[ResolutePear]

Found this laying around. Seemed relevant.

it isn't.

How can it not be? We're talking about TTT's advertising.. well - there it is. Next to Yale, nonetheless.

[Skyhook]

but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.

you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.

A ridiculous number of people in the US believe the age of the Earth is 6000 years old...

[FGCUguy123]

but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.

you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.

A ridiculous number of people in the US believe the age of the Earth is 6000 years old...

Haha

[ResolutePear]

but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.

you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.

A ridiculous number of people in the US believe the age of the Earth is 6000 years old...

Well played, good sir!

[swc65]

Found this laying around. Seemed relevant.

it isn't.

How can it not be? We're talking about TTT's advertising.. well - there it is. Next to Yale, nonetheless.

Everyone knows that University of Phoenix a quality institution, charges fair tuition, and provides students with excellent job prospects.

[ResolutePear]

Found this laying around. Seemed relevant.

it isn't.

How can it not be? We're talking about TTT's advertising.. well - there it is. Next to Yale, nonetheless.

Everyone knows that University of Phoenix a quality institution, charges fair tuition, and provides students with excellent job prospects.

Ah, well.. that explains my 134 on my LSAT.

Good thing I can still get into a quality school like phoenix having academically failed all throughout my life through my own lulzyness.

[traehekat]

but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.

you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.

A ridiculous number of people in the US believe the age of the Earth is 6000 years old...

I'm sure that's a fine analogy. It's not like there is a big difference or anything between deep rooted religious faith and believing the employment data that law schools report.

[Skyhook]

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.

A ridiculous number of people in the US believe the age of the Earth is 6000 years old...

I'm sure that's a fine analogy. It's not like there is a big difference or anything between deep rooted religious faith and believing the employment data that law schools report.

It's not an analogy - it demonstrates that just shoving the truth in someone's face doesn't necessarily work.
Ardently holding on to a belief, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, is certainly a common element.

[Aberzombie1892]

This is the key. An employer that is an Emory alum would not care that it dropped 8 spots.

This is probable. But most employers with more than a handful of attorneys have hiring committees that consist of alumni from various schools. This serves to completely negate any personal bias beyond school reputation (i.e. HYS > remaining T14 with ties > top regional schools > everyone else).

To counter your point: Even if a firm started out with a handful of Emory alums, it could end up like Wachtell. Wachtell was started by 6 NYU graduates and now you have to be very lucky to get a job at the firm from NYU (as opposed to HY [at least]).

But this wasn't the point I was conveying earlier. My point earlier was that no one wants to harm the reputation of their school. I believe that the primary reason for this is the snowballing effect that a bad reputation has.

[Cade McNown]

It's spelled transparency. Good luck with your emploiment search Emory 3L.

[OperaSoprano]

This is the key. An employer that is an Emory alum would not care that it dropped 8 spots.

This is probable. But most employers with more than a handful of attorneys have hiring committees that consist of alumni from various schools. This serves to completely negate any personal bias beyond school reputation (i.e. HYS > remaining T14 with ties > top regional schools > everyone else).

To counter your point: Even if a firm started out with a handful of Emory alums, it could end up like Wachtell. Wachtell was started by 6 NYU graduates and now you have to be very lucky to get a job at the firm from NYU (as opposed to HY [at least]).

But this wasn't the point I was conveying earlier. My point earlier was that no one wants to harm the reputation of their school. I believe that the primary reason for this is the snowballing effect that a bad reputation has.

I think part of the problem is that we, and the schools, are equating honesty with harming the reputation of the school. There is something very wrong with that thought process. Everyone knows we are just climbing out of a recession, and the class of 2011 got the worst of it. I do not think it serves anyone for schools or students to try to suppress information from the recession years. If the data has been collected, it will probably leak out, and it looks far more responsible if the school itself takes ownership and makes reliable and transparent information public.

This is not about blaming Emory or the students-- as others have said, it's about the reality of legal hiring in the markets where Emory grads commonly go. Moreover, this is data from one single year, and it has to be put into context to paint any sort of meaningful picture. The best thing for prospective students to do is to talk to current students, to get a sense of conditions for this year's 2Ls, and how much hiring has or has not improved at the school.

I love my own school very much, but I believe just as strongly that employment numbers should not be a secret, and if we had a survey of 3L outcomes, I would want it to be public.

[swc65]

I wonder if we could organize something similar on TLS, where people self report their school and what job they have. I dunno how many 3Ls are on here though.

[keg411]

Law students aren't exactly risk taking types

oh god, the irony is making me sick.

I don't think it's risk... I think it's laziness.