Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion Forum

[Action Jackson]

Maybe you can fake it, but there are tons and tons of people who are actually really passionate about this field and the organizations don't hire that many people. (At my T6, I know at least 10 people who were gung-ho about public interest/criminal law (some are Law Review, top 10%) from the very beginning. They didn't even do OCI/EIP and they are going to tell these interviewers exactly that. )

Didn't say it was a cakewalk, becoming a public defender is easier than becoming a big law associate.

Actually, what you said before you edited was that you can't help it it these T6 top 10% can't interview worth shit (which makes little sense, since they likely haven't interviewed or found out yet). But even if it is easier to get a 2L summer PD position than a biglaw SA (which is highly dubious), it's not like PD summer programs aim to have 100% offer rates at the end of summer; I believe you generally have to interview from scratch and duke it out with everyone else in 3L interviews. Summer positions in PDs are not feeder positions. It seems like they actually give you real work, and you actually help them get stuff done. Many PDs have hired few or no full time positions in the past few years, relying instead on deferred SAs working off their firm stipends.

Exactly. People seem to forget that once you're not talking about biglaw the logistics of getting a job are very different. I know a couple people that summered in PI and are currently unemployed. The PI market is, from what I've heard, actually worse than the law firm market right now in terms of new hires. They generally don't have the money right now to hire new people, and they're getting tons of the biglaw cast offs as free labor.

The market is rough out there for everyone.

PS: This thread has solidified my opinion that OS is the TLS MVP. Excellent thread.

[legends159]

I completely respect people who choose the unconventional paths to a legal career. 2l biglaw -> post LS employment is the path of least resistance but it's not the right path for everyone and definitely not the only way to have a succesful career.

[Anonymous User]

i really dont understand..
If im having problems finding A JOB/SA position from a t50 10%.....
where do the other 10k grads go after they graduate from law school jobless?

You're a grown-ass man/woman. Who gives a fuck what your parents think?

Eh. I can sympathize with this guy. I transferred from a regional t3 where I was offered a full tuition scholarship to a t10. My parent's thought I was being an idiot and tried to talk me out of it, and I basically brought up job prospects using past job statistics showing them that I would very likely do well in terms of finding a job that pays more than enough to justify the cost difference. I'm now a jobless 3L that had nothing pan out, and the fact is I would have most likely ended up with a regional biglaw position had I stayed (market is around $100K /year out here). I transferred because I wanted a Chi/NYC/LA and shot for that, but I would have been much better off just staying because by transferred I cut off any ties I had at the state I transferred from. And my t3 does quite well in the state it is in because no out-of-state people really want to move there and there are only two schools in the state where law firms hire from (my old school being one of them). My parents don't really rub this in my face or anything, but it's pretty obvious that transferring was a huge mistake now that I'm going to be $140K+ in debt for just these past 2 years (nearly $200K if you include my first year and interest across 3 years) with no real way to paying it off.

Maybe you can fake it, but there are tons and tons of people who are actually really passionate about this field and the organizations don't hire that many people. (At my T6, I know at least 10 people who were gung-ho about public interest/criminal law (some are Law Review, top 10%) from the very beginning. They didn't even do OCI/EIP and they are going to tell these interviewers exactly that. )

Didn't say it was a cakewalk, becoming a public defender is easier than becoming a big law associate.

Actually, what you said before you edited was that you can't help it it these T6 top 10% can't interview worth shit (which makes little sense, since they likely haven't interviewed or found out yet). But even if it is easier to get a 2L summer PD position than a biglaw SA (which is highly dubious), it's not like PD summer programs aim to have 100% offer rates at the end of summer; I believe you generally have to interview from scratch and duke it out with everyone else in 3L interviews. Summer positions in PDs are not feeder positions. It seems like they actually give you real work, and you actually help them get stuff done. Many PDs have hired few or no full time positions in the past few years, relying instead on deferred SAs working off their firm stipends.

It actually is really easy to get a 2L summer PD position (assuming you are okay with working in a smaller city) because it is all volunteer work and most of these PD offices really need the extra help. The PD's office I am volunteering in now took over 70 interns last summer. The thing is that they hire very few people and it isn't based on some type of biglaw model where they plan on hiring X students each year. They just hire when they need people. The volunteers have an advantage over other applicants, but it's no guarantee (there are also full-time attorneys that work as volunteers, so I would imagine they get first pick over a summer person too). The post above is correct, though, you do "generally have to interview from scratch and duke it out with everyone else," including actual experienced attorneys and current volunteer attorneys.

[Anonymous User]

This is exactly what happened to me. Except I dont even get a T10 name on my diploma. I am at ND/WUSTL/Emory level school.
I will likely get nothing at OCI here. 1 callback at my new school prob for 50-80k salary.
I made a similar mistake by transferring. Everyone keeps on asking me why I transferred at my new school. Everyone in my class knows my school except employers, so there isnt much use.......

my parents were the opposite. They forced me to transfer.

i really dont understand..
If im having problems finding A JOB/SA position from a t50 10%.....
where do the other 10k grads go after they graduate from law school jobless?

You're a grown-ass man/woman. Who gives a fuck what your parents think?

Eh. I can sympathize with this guy. I transferred from a regional t3 where I was offered a full tuition scholarship to a t10. My parent's thought I was being an idiot and tried to talk me out of it, and I basically brought up job prospects using past job statistics showing them that I would very likely do well in terms of finding a job that pays more than enough to justify the cost difference. I'm now a jobless 3L that had nothing pan out, and the fact is I would have most likely ended up with a regional biglaw position had I stayed (market is around $100K /year out here). I transferred because I wanted a Chi/NYC/LA and shot for that, but I would have been much better off just staying because by transferred I cut off any ties I had at the state I transferred from. And my t3 does quite well in the state it is in because no out-of-state people really want to move there and there are only two schools in the state where law firms hire from (my old school being one of them). My parents don't really rub this in my face or anything, but it's pretty obvious that transferring was a huge mistake now that I'm going to be $140K+ in debt for just these past 2 years (nearly $200K if you include my first year and interest across 3 years) with no real way to paying it off.

Maybe you can fake it, but there are tons and tons of people who are actually really passionate about this field and the organizations don't hire that many people. (At my T6, I know at least 10 people who were gung-ho about public interest/criminal law (some are Law Review, top 10%) from the very beginning. They didn't even do OCI/EIP and they are going to tell these interviewers exactly that. )

Didn't say it was a cakewalk, becoming a public defender is easier than becoming a big law associate.

Actually, what you said before you edited was that you can't help it it these T6 top 10% can't interview worth shit (which makes little sense, since they likely haven't interviewed or found out yet). But even if it is easier to get a 2L summer PD position than a biglaw SA (which is highly dubious), it's not like PD summer programs aim to have 100% offer rates at the end of summer; I believe you generally have to interview from scratch and duke it out with everyone else in 3L interviews. Summer positions in PDs are not feeder positions. It seems like they actually give you real work, and you actually help them get stuff done. Many PDs have hired few or no full time positions in the past few years, relying instead on deferred SAs working off their firm stipends.

It actually is really easy to get a 2L summer PD position (assuming you are okay with working in a smaller city) because it is all volunteer work and most of these PD offices really need the extra help. The PD's office I am volunteering in now took over 70 interns last summer. The thing is that they hire very few people and it isn't based on some type of biglaw model where they plan on hiring X students each year. They just hire when they need people. The volunteers have an advantage over other applicants, but it's no guarantee (there are also full-time attorneys that work as volunteers, so I would imagine they get first pick over a summer person too). The post above is correct, though, you do "generally have to interview from scratch and duke it out with everyone else," including actual experienced attorneys and current volunteer attorneys.

[OperaSoprano]

Exactly. People seem to forget that once you're not talking about biglaw the logistics of getting a job are very different. I know a couple people that summered in PI and are currently unemployed. The PI market is, from what I've heard, actually worse than the law firm market right now in terms of new hires. They generally don't have the money right now to hire new people, and they're getting tons of the biglaw cast offs as free labor.

The market is rough out there for everyone.

PS: This thread has solidified my opinion that OS is the TLS MVP. Excellent thread.

All very true. PI organizations want to hire people with true commitment, but they lack funding, and deferred associates on stipends (plus unpaid interns) help pick up the extra work.

As for me, you are very sweet. I doubt that I am MVP (really, that ought to go to one of the spectacular authors of exam advice guides, like Arrow or Scribe), but I am probably the biggest risk taker on TLS! I had nothing to lose in setting off on this adventure, because I had no debt and no gigantic career opportunity costs. I didn't have legal connections either, however, save the ones I made along the way. What I am discovering is that most law students are incredibly risk averse. I am out in the unknown here, and everyone around me seems to be on a prescribed path to biglaw, or to something else well defined and well within their reach. I am doing this my own way, and I have enjoyed the experience so far, but this is so not for the faint of heart, and sometimes I wonder what on earth I've gotten myself into. Fashion and law, while retaining my commitment to nonprofit/pro bono work? It certainly seems easier to go where the path may lead, but I arguably never had that option, so what's left is to try to enjoy this crazy process and take copious notes so I can leave something behind for the next person crazy enough to try.

To everyone else heading off the beaten path, I wish you the very best!

[Anonymous User]

I used to earn $95k as an electrical engineer and struck out at OCI. I'm a little worried that I'll end up earning the same amount even though I'll have spent 3 years in school and earned a lot of debt.

However, we knew what the economy was like when we entered law school. Start working on your back-up plans! I'm sure everything will work on in the future.

[Anonymous User]

Why quit a 95K job? Did you hate it?

[rayiner]

I used to earn $95k as an electrical engineer and struck out at OCI. I'm a little worried that I'll end up earning the same amount even though I'll have spent 3 years in school and earned a lot of debt.

However, we knew what the economy was like when we entered law school. Start working on your back-up plans! I'm sure everything will work on in the future.

What level of school?

Resume bomb the shit out of every firm that does patent prosecution work and then hit PLIP next year.

[Anonymous User]

Why quit a 95K job? Did you hate it?

It had its ups and downs, but overall it was pleasant.

I left because I have an interest in patent prosecution. Reading and writing about technology, sprinkled with law, yet still working with engineers? Sign me up!

[Anonymous User]

I used to earn $95k as an electrical engineer and struck out at OCI. I'm a little worried that I'll end up earning the same amount even though I'll have spent 3 years in school and earned a lot of debt.

However, we knew what the economy was like when we entered law school. Start working on your back-up plans! I'm sure everything will work on in the future.

What level of school?

Resume bomb the shit out of every firm that does patent prosecution work and then hit PLIP next year.

School is in the 25-40 range, class rank top 30-40%, secondary journal, MSEE, work experience

I've noticed people with similar credentials hurting in this economy.

I think my biggest mistake was not going to PLIP (I had to cancel). I have started resume bombing and have an upcoming interview with one of the larger patent prosecution firms, but it's in a city I have no ties to so I'm not sure how that will work out.

[sperry]

At an MVP, struck out. Absolutely no clue what I'll do.

On the one hand, I won't be in serious debt, and didn't really have any decent career prospects coming out of UG, so there are definitely people in worse shape than me.


On the other hand, I will emerge from this process with essentially nothing to show for it. It seems my most likely course of action is to just suck it up and do some other sort of undergrad major or graduate school and essentially start over. It's thoroughly depressing to think about.

[rayiner]

At an MVP, struck out. Absolutely no clue what I'll do.

On the one hand, I won't be in serious debt, and didn't really have any decent career prospects coming out of UG, so there are definitely people in worse shape than me.


On the other hand, I will emerge from this process with essentially nothing to show for it. It seems my most likely course of action is to just suck it up and do some other sort of undergrad major or graduate school and essentially start over. It's thoroughly depressing to think about.

If you have a law degree and little debt, then it'd be silly to do any more school. I mean, what would you do? A PhD? There are no jobs for PhDs. An MBA? You can't get into any worthwhile MBA program if you graduated undergrad without decent career prospects. Are you good at math so you can get into engineering or accounting?

You have a JD from a top school. When the economy recovers, you'll have prospects if you keep your expectations reasonable. Decide whether you want to stay in law or do something else. If the former, gun for a clerkship (even a state clerkship) and try to angle into a small law firm. If the latter, then graduate and get a job and work your way up. People say that a JD will overqualify you for non-legal positions, but that's the sort of constraint you can overcome with good interviewing. Either way, meet people! Do internships. Get *something* to put on your resume.

You'll probably graduate making $45k or so, but that's better than the $35k your average college graduate makes. If you're good, you'll go up from there. That's what having a normal professional career is like.

[Action Jackson]

On the other hand, I will emerge from this process with essentially nothing to show for it. It seems my most likely course of action is to just suck it up and do some other sort of undergrad major or graduate school and essentially start over. It's thoroughly depressing to think about.

If you're thinking of changing paths why continue with the JD? Just cut your losses and run. If you start prepping right now you can take the GMAT or GRE or whatever test you might need for grad school and apply this winter for next fall. Doesn't make sense to keep paying for a degree you don't plan on using.

[sperry]

On the other hand, I will emerge from this process with essentially nothing to show for it. It seems my most likely course of action is to just suck it up and do some other sort of undergrad major or graduate school and essentially start over. It's thoroughly depressing to think about.

If you're thinking of changing paths why continue with the JD? Just cut your losses and run. If you start prepping right now you can take the GMAT or GRE or whatever test you might need for grad school and apply this winter for next fall. Doesn't make sense to keep paying for a degree you don't plan on using.

Can you be accepted to business school without any relevant work experience? I also figured that dropping out of law school is not going to be something that looks good on a resume, whereas a JD might.


Also, is it possible to get the entry level banking positions that go to straight out of UG people as a law school grad...?

[General Tso]

Can you be accepted to business school without any relevant work experience?

not to any reputable ones...and honestly only the top 20 or so MBA programs are worth attending, especially if you aren't already employed at a large corporation.

[rayiner]

On the other hand, I will emerge from this process with essentially nothing to show for it. It seems my most likely course of action is to just suck it up and do some other sort of undergrad major or graduate school and essentially start over. It's thoroughly depressing to think about.

If you're thinking of changing paths why continue with the JD? Just cut your losses and run. If you start prepping right now you can take the GMAT or GRE or whatever test you might need for grad school and apply this winter for next fall. Doesn't make sense to keep paying for a degree you don't plan on using.

Can you be accepted to business school without any relevant work experience? I also figured that dropping out of law school is not going to be something that looks good on a resume, whereas a JD might.


Also, is it possible to get the entry level banking positions that go to straight out of UG people as a law school grad...?

Only a top business school will jump-start a career for you, and it'd be pretty much impossible to get into one with no WE. Mediocre business schools will take you with no WE, but those are for enhancing an existing career. They won't do anything to start you on a career.

As for banking, do you have the requisite quantitative background?

Look, what do you want to do? You've just mentioned law, business, and finance. It sounds like you just want to make a lot of money. That's fine, but the "make a ton of money straight out of UG" ship has probably sailed. You should be looking at opportunities to establish a solid long term career instead of pursing those dead-ends.

[sperry]

On the other hand, I will emerge from this process with essentially nothing to show for it. It seems my most likely course of action is to just suck it up and do some other sort of undergrad major or graduate school and essentially start over. It's thoroughly depressing to think about.

If you're thinking of changing paths why continue with the JD? Just cut your losses and run. If you start prepping right now you can take the GMAT or GRE or whatever test you might need for grad school and apply this winter for next fall. Doesn't make sense to keep paying for a degree you don't plan on using.

Can you be accepted to business school without any relevant work experience? I also figured that dropping out of law school is not going to be something that looks good on a resume, whereas a JD might.


Also, is it possible to get the entry level banking positions that go to straight out of UG people as a law school grad...?

Only a top business school will jump-start a career for you, and it'd be pretty much impossible to get into one with no WE. Mediocre business schools will take you with no WE, but those are for enhancing an existing career. They won't do anything to start you on a career.

As for banking, do you have the requisite quantitative background?

Look, what do you want to do? You've just mentioned law, business, and finance. It sounds like you just want to make a lot of money. That's fine, but the "make a ton of money straight out of UG" ship has probably sailed. You should be looking at opportunities to establish a solid long term career instead of pursing those dead-ends.

Yeah I didn't think that b-school was an option, but someone suggested the GMAT so I was a little confused.


As for the requisite quantitative background, what would that be? I've never applied for banking jobs, nor even looked into it, really. Up until about June of this year when 2nd semester grades came out, I'd been thinking my future would be in the law. My UG degree is in economics, and I took way more mathematics courses than were necessary, and did well in them. (My UG school is not prestigious, though). What is the interviewing process for those types of jobs like? Is it case study type interactive interviews, or is it just they look at your resume and ask "why banking, why us?" Again, having never even looked into the process it's not something I'm strongly considering, just something I'm sort of interested in.


As for making money, yes, I would prefer to be well compensated for my work. If I'm unable to land a high paying job, I know what type of work I will do, so I don't really need to consider other options along those lines.

[Action Jackson]

I only mentioned the GMAT as one of the types of tests you could take now-ish. If you don't think you can get into a good b-school then obviously don't bother with the test.

As for the utility of having a JD on your resume or not, the question is whether or not getting a JD is worth the money at this point. If you get a JD and decide to apply to another program you're going to have to explain why you don't want to be a lawyer, and then inevitably they'll ask you why you didn't leave the program. Leave now and you can just tell them that you decided you a legal career wasn't for you, which is the same thing you're going to say if you keep the JD, minus the extra debt.

If the above doesn't convince you, then just take a leave of absence now, apply, and if not continuing with the law degree actually causes you trouble getting into a different program then return to law school. But even if you debt is minimal its still very real, and I don't see why you would throw money down the drain knowing you're not going to be a lawyer.

If you are sincere about not being a lawyer then there's no rational reason to keep paying for the degree.

[rayiner]

If you're thinking of changing paths why continue with the JD? Just cut your losses and run. If you start prepping right now you can take the GMAT or GRE or whatever test you might need for grad school and apply this winter for next fall. Doesn't make sense to keep paying for a degree you don't plan on using.

Can you be accepted to business school without any relevant work experience? I also figured that dropping out of law school is not going to be something that looks good on a resume, whereas a JD might.


Also, is it possible to get the entry level banking positions that go to straight out of UG people as a law school grad...?

Only a top business school will jump-start a career for you, and it'd be pretty much impossible to get into one with no WE. Mediocre business schools will take you with no WE, but those are for enhancing an existing career. They won't do anything to start you on a career.

As for banking, do you have the requisite quantitative background?

Look, what do you want to do? You've just mentioned law, business, and finance. It sounds like you just want to make a lot of money. That's fine, but the "make a ton of money straight out of UG" ship has probably sailed. You should be looking at opportunities to establish a solid long term career instead of pursing those dead-ends.

Yeah I didn't think that b-school was an option, but someone suggested the GMAT so I was a little confused.


As for the requisite quantitative background, what would that be? I've never applied for banking jobs, nor even looked into it, really. Up until about June of this year when 2nd semester grades came out, I'd been thinking my future would be in the law. My UG degree is in economics, and I took way more mathematics courses than were necessary, and did well in them. (My UG school is not prestigious, though). What is the interviewing process for those types of jobs like? Is it case study type interactive interviews, or is it just they look at your resume and ask "why banking, why us?" Again, having never even looked into the process it's not something I'm strongly considering, just something I'm sort of interested in.


As for making money, yes, I would prefer to be well compensated for my work. If I'm unable to land a high paying job, I know what type of work I will do, so I don't really need to consider other options along those lines.

Okay, degree in economics is a plus. Do you have a good UGPA? If so, it might be worth it to look at some finance jobs. By and large they recruit at UG OCI though, IIRC.

Have you considered government work? If you can pull your grades up 2L, your economics background might be useful for applying to SEC, FTC, etc.

[sperry]

If you're thinking of changing paths why continue with the JD? Just cut your losses and run. If you start prepping right now you can take the GMAT or GRE or whatever test you might need for grad school and apply this winter for next fall. Doesn't make sense to keep paying for a degree you don't plan on using.

Can you be accepted to business school without any relevant work experience? I also figured that dropping out of law school is not going to be something that looks good on a resume, whereas a JD might.


Also, is it possible to get the entry level banking positions that go to straight out of UG people as a law school grad

Yeah I didn't think that b-school was an option, but someone suggested the GMAT so I was a little confused.


As for the requisite quantitative background, what would that be? I've never applied for banking jobs, nor even looked into it, really. Up until about June of this year when 2nd semester grades came out, I'd been thinking my future would be in the law. My UG degree is in economics, and I took way more mathematics courses than were necessary, and did well in them. (My UG school is not prestigious, though). What is the interviewing process for those types of jobs like? Is it case study type interactive interviews, or is it just they look at your resume and ask "why banking, why us?" Again, having never even looked into the process it's not something I'm strongly considering, just something I'm sort of interested in.


As for making money, yes, I would prefer to be well compensated for my work. If I'm unable to land a high paying job, I know what type of work I will do, so I don't really need to consider other options along those lines.

Okay, degree in economics is a plus. Do you have a good UGPA? If so, it might be worth it to look at some finance jobs. By and large they recruit at UG OCI though, IIRC.

Have you considered government work? If you can pull your grades up 2L, your economics background might be useful for applying to SEC, FTC, etc.

UGPA was excellent, but it's a big state school that doesn't really place into the industry.

Also, I'd certainly consider good government work, but from what I understand that type of work is just as competitive to get as Big Law, so I wasn't really counting on it.


I'm not big law or bust, but I'm not so committed to the practice of law that I'd take $40k for a legal job over something significantly better in a different industry. Also, I'm at Penn, and they let us take graduate classes in Wharton, not sure how much that would help, if at all, when applying for jobs in finance.

[rayiner]

I'm not big law or bust, but I'm not so committed to the practice of law that I'd take $40k for a legal job over something significantly better in a different industry. Also, I'm at Penn, and they let us take graduate classes in Wharton, not sure how much that would help, if at all, when applying for jobs in finance.

If you have something better lined up in another industry, then that seems like a solid plan.

Government jobs are hard to get but not necessarily in the same way as biglaw jobs. It's not just about having the highest GPA, but having a background in the substantive area in question. If you decide to get your JD, then you should really try to get an internship with a federal agency where you can pitch your economics background. SEC, FTC, etc. Externships during the year are a great way to get something on your resume and more importantly meet people who can pull for you.

[mbw]

I haven't seen anybody mention anything like DOJ honors, JAG corps, or other government positions yet. There are other options besides big law, even if the pay is not fantastic.

Exactly. Didn't even bother with OCI, as I have zero interest in BigLaw. And yes, it's not a cakewalk, but with a >10% attrition rate and 8% expected growth over the next 8 years, there are clearly jobs available (about 3000/yr, which will only increase as the BBers (1946 - 64) begin to turn 65 next year.)

Someone has to suffer and take the lower salaries and be home every night by 6 I'll be the martyr and sign up...

If you have something better lined up in another industry, then that seems like a solid plan.

Government jobs are hard to get but not necessarily in the same way as biglaw jobs. It's not just about having the highest GPA, but having a background in the substantive area in question. If you decide to get your JD, then you should really try to get an internship with a federal agency where you can pitch your economics background. SEC, FTC, etc. Externships during the year are a great way to get something on your resume and more importantly meet people who can pull for you.

This is very true -- make sure your background has something applicable to your agency. I've a PhD in anthro and background in IP, so am sticking with DoI, Smithsonian, NSF, etc. Not as prestigious as SEC et al., but I'll probably have a better chance at actually landing a gig.

[Anonymous User]

I could be wrong, but I have heard of one person working in-house for Goldman Sachs after graduation. I would imagine it would require some financial background and an internship.

I'm a 3L who worked an SA in NYC last summer, and I've seriously never heard of this.

You worked an SA in NYC, that means you know everything? It sounds to me you wouldn't have a clue about in-house positions since you never tried to get one. I go to a T10 and I know somebody who got a six-figure in-house job at a major automobile company 3 weeks before graduation last year. I also know somebody who went straight to work for an oil company. Sure, it's not likely, but it is possible.

[MrKappus]

Also, is it possible to get the entry level banking positions that go to straight out of UG people as a law school grad

Banks recruit from elite UG's, not law schools. They care way less about quant backgrounds, and way more about pedigree. I have numerous history major/polisci friends at banks, in research and trading positions. Maybe some Wharton classes would make you more marketable, but there's a very specific track for trading/i-banking, and it doesn't involve 3 yrs of law school. You go to Penn Law. I wouldn't freak out.

[Unemployed]

Also, is it possible to get the entry level banking positions that go to straight out of UG people as a law school grad

Banks recruit from elite UG's, not law schools. They care way less about quant backgrounds, and way more about pedigree. I have numerous history major/polisci friends at banks, in research and trading positions. Maybe some Wharton classes would make you more marketable, but there's a very specific track for trading/i-banking, and it doesn't involve 3 yrs of law school. You go to Penn Law. I wouldn't freak out.

+1

I must admit, I am a little surprised that a median-ish applicant from Penn struck out entirely... I thought things were supposed to be better this year