Pittsburgh Area Legal Market Forum

[budafied]

I'm gonna bump this now that I've gotten my June score.

With my numbers (3.59, 167; two-year-old 154) I will definitely have a shot at schools like ND and Vandy, perhaps even with good scholarships. I will also have a great shot at a big scholly from Pitt, as I am well above their 75% lsat and median GPA.

Now that I have my actual numbers, are there any new suggestions on a good course of action if I want to work permanently in Pittsburgh (which I'm not dead set on yet).

I'd like to be able to get a good job, which I know will require networking.

[kingrichardx]

It's funny how the job market changes everything. I too want to work in Pittsburgh. I have 3.65ish from University of Michigan and just got a 169 and am about 99.9% I'm going to Pitt. In years past, I wouldn't have considered it. I've really been trying to get a read on the situation and have been talking to a fair number of relatively prominent Pittsburgh lawyers who have all told me the same thing..."Avoid debt at all costs." Pitt is more than a fine degree for the job market in Pittsburgh.

Besides, in a climate like this, it becomes much much more about networking and general competency than just a fancy name at the top of your degree.

[balzern]

It's funny how the job market changes everything. I too want to work in Pittsburgh. I have 3.65ish from University of Michigan and just got a 169 and am about 99.9% I'm going to Pitt. In years past, I wouldn't have considered it. I've really been trying to get a read on the situation and have been talking to a fair number of relatively prominent Pittsburgh lawyers who have all told me the same thing..."Avoid debt at all costs." Pitt is more than a fine degree for the job market in Pittsburgh.

Besides, in a climate like this, it becomes much much more about networking and general competency than just a fancy name at the top of your degree.

'

+1

[badwithpseudonyms]

I'm gonna bump this now that I've gotten my June score.

With my numbers (3.59, 167; two-year-old 154) I will definitely have a shot at schools like ND and Vandy, perhaps even with good scholarships. I will also have a great shot at a big scholly from Pitt, as I am well above their 75% lsat and median GPA.

Now that I have my actual numbers, are there any new suggestions on a good course of action if I want to work permanently in Pittsburgh (which I'm not dead set on yet).

I'd like to be able to get a good job, which I know will require networking.

Like I said earlier ITT, I wouldn't hold my breath on a huge scholarship from Pitt. It will definitely be more than had you been applying with a 154 (Congrats, by the way), but a 167 doesn't do them any more good than a 161 (or 162, if they were to try and increase their LSAT 75th). You'll probably get $12k (assuming you're in-state), and maybe a bit more if you go back and ask for it. But that's just my guess. I hope they prove me wrong and start giving more money to higher quality applicants who want to stay in Pittsburgh (a theme also discussed earlier ITT).

At the end of the day, people - like kingrichardx above me - choose Pitt because they like the city and want to live/work there. If you're going to attend Pitt, you should be "dead set" on working in Western PA.

As far as a course of action for getting a job: get stellar grades, network your ass off, and nail your 1L and 2L OCI interviews. But that's pretty generic advice.

[abenson25]

.

[7475787905]

To dispel this notion that if you can't find a job paying 100k+ in pittsburgh you'll be able to find one paying 60+ and live like you are in Chicago or NY: no, I can't think off of the top of my head of more than 5 firms that pay from 60-100k to start in Pittsburgh. And they probably hire less than 10 entry level associates per year. Almost all of them do not have summer associate programs, and if they do, they may have 1 or 2 summers. Just look at NALP people. Reed Smith hired 4 2L summers this year (none from t14 schools if my info is correct and 2 from pitt), Buchanan 3, Jones Day 4-6, K&L 6, Babst Calland 4, Thorp Reed 2. Morgan Lewis, Cohen & Grigsby, Eckert Seamans and others did not hire a single summer associate. So that's a maximum of 25 summer positions in the city paying 100k+. Those odds are pretty slim. I do appreciate the idea that Pitt and Duquesne are well respected in pittsburgh; they are. But that doesn't mean that firms are hiring from them these days. It is unfortunate that Pitt doesn't give very large scholarships to excellent candidates. Their policy seems to differ from other schools in that respect. And I'm not sure about that anecdote about a decent percentage of Pitt's 2L class getting paying jobs because I've heard otherwise. I do agree, that if you could score one of these 100k+ jobs you could live like a king (assuming minimal loans) because of the cost of living (and the fact that pittsburgh is a great place to live). I second what everyone has said about the insular and connected nature of the market but will also add that not too many t14-type grads want to go to pittsburgh, so if you go to a t14 school you will have a leg up. Also Notre Dame is comparatively more respected in pittsburgh than other places because it is still a very catholic city. The Pittsburgh legal economy for an entry level attorney right now is brutal to crack. I'm not saying it can't be done, but at least go in recognizing that fact.

[pjo]

I also live in the Pittsburgh area and will be looking at Pitt and Duquesne. I took the June LSATs and got a 160. What I am hoping will help with scholarship money is that I have a masters Degree in Forensic Science(frmo George Washington University), worked for a year as a Crime Scene Detective and for 4 years as a Part time Advocate for Rape Victims. I had originally planned for Duquesne because I have two small children and the Evening Program appeared to be best. But with my husband in a new job, I am thinking it may be better to go during the day and put my kids in day care. Because of the cost of daycare, I would really need to get scholarship money, so I will probably apply to both early. I am just afraid I will get nothing from Pitt since I did not hit the 161 mark. I am just hoping the extras I have may help. My uncle went to Duquesne years ago, and still teaches a class there, so I am sure that would help me there, but from reading here, I may be better off at Pitt. I suppose I really have no questions, just lamenting my uncertainty....ha!

IDK what your UGPA is, but if its decent (3.5 or more) Pitt is going to give you between 8-12K/yr

[abenson25]

I also live in the Pittsburgh area and will be looking at Pitt and Duquesne. I took the June LSATs and got a 160. What I am hoping will help with scholarship money is that I have a masters Degree in Forensic Science(frmo George Washington University), worked for a year as a Crime Scene Detective and for 4 years as a Part time Advocate for Rape Victims. I had originally planned for Duquesne because I have two small children and the Evening Program appeared to be best. But with my husband in a new job, I am thinking it may be better to go during the day and put my kids in day care. Because of the cost of daycare, I would really need to get scholarship money, so I will probably apply to both early. I am just afraid I will get nothing from Pitt since I did not hit the 161 mark. I am just hoping the extras I have may help. My uncle went to Duquesne years ago, and still teaches a class there, so I am sure that would help me there, but from reading here, I may be better off at Pitt. I suppose I really have no questions, just lamenting my uncertainty....ha!

IDK what your UGPA is, but if its decent (3.5 or more) Pitt is going to give you between 8-12K/yr

My undergrad GPA was 3.4. My Graduate GPA was 3.8. I am still new to a lot of this, so I am not sure if they will look just at the undergrad GPA, or if the Grad. GPA will be looked at as well. I have one transcript that still needs to get to LSAC before I get the number from them. Thanks for the info!

[yinz]

My undergrad GPA was 3.4. My Graduate GPA was 3.8. I am still new to a lot of this, so I am not sure if they will look just at the undergrad GPA, or if the Grad. GPA will be looked at as well. I have one transcript that still needs to get to LSAC before I get the number from them. Thanks for the info!

Solely UGPA. 161 or higher and 3.4 UGPA will get you the $$.

[abenson25]

My undergrad GPA was 3.4. My Graduate GPA was 3.8. I am still new to a lot of this, so I am not sure if they will look just at the undergrad GPA, or if the Grad. GPA will be looked at as well. I have one transcript that still needs to get to LSAC before I get the number from them. Thanks for the info!

Solely UGPA. 161 or higher and 3.4 UGPA will get you the $$.

That is what I was worried about. I got a 160...one stupid point. Do they not factor in other things(i.e. graduate degree, post-school work).

[pjo]

naw you're still alright. look http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Seabas87/jd . they care far more about LSAT that gpa

[yinz]

naw you're still alright. look http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Seabas87/jd . they care far more about LSAT that gpa

There's some merit to this answer. Early in the cycle, they may say 160 is the strict cut off line for the scholarship. But at this point in the summer, if they want you (read: need to fill a spot) they can make things happen. My advice would be to call the admissions office tomorrow and ask to have the financial aid/merit scholarship trustees take a look at your application.

You may or may not get the money for all three years though - more than likely it'll be a one year scholarship and from there you'd have to earn the next two years.

[badwithpseudonyms]

To dispel this notion that if you can't find a job paying 100k+ in pittsburgh you'll be able to find one paying 60+ and live like you are in Chicago or NY: no, I can't think off of the top of my head of more than 5 firms that pay from 60-100k to start in Pittsburgh. And they probably hire less than 10 entry level associates per year. Almost all of them do not have summer associate programs, and if they do, they may have 1 or 2 summers. Just look at NALP people. Reed Smith hired 4 2L summers this year (none from t14 schools if my info is correct and 2 from pitt), Buchanan 3, Jones Day 4-6, K&L 6, Babst Calland 4, Thorp Reed 2. Morgan Lewis, Cohen & Grigsby, Eckert Seamans and others did not hire a single summer associate. So that's a maximum of 25 summer positions in the city paying 100k+. Those odds are pretty slim. I do appreciate the idea that Pitt and Duquesne are well respected in pittsburgh; they are. But that doesn't mean that firms are hiring from them these days. It is unfortunate that Pitt doesn't give very large scholarships to excellent candidates. Their policy seems to differ from other schools in that respect. And I'm not sure about that anecdote about a decent percentage of Pitt's 2L class getting paying jobs because I've heard otherwise. I do agree, that if you could score one of these 100k+ jobs you could live like a king (assuming minimal loans) because of the cost of living (and the fact that pittsburgh is a great place to live). I second what everyone has said about the insular and connected nature of the market but will also add that not too many t14-type grads want to go to pittsburgh, so if you go to a t14 school you will have a leg up. Also Notre Dame is comparatively more respected in pittsburgh than other places because it is still a very catholic city. The Pittsburgh legal economy for an entry level attorney right now is brutal to crack. I'm not saying it can't be done, but at least go in recognizing that fact.

I just want to take a minute to point out what an excellent post this was (and not just because it indirectly vindicates my decision to attend a T14 at sticker ). On each point, it was spot on.

[budafied]

To dispel this notion that if you can't find a job paying 100k+ in pittsburgh you'll be able to find one paying 60+ and live like you are in Chicago or NY: no, I can't think off of the top of my head of more than 5 firms that pay from 60-100k to start in Pittsburgh. And they probably hire less than 10 entry level associates per year. Almost all of them do not have summer associate programs, and if they do, they may have 1 or 2 summers. Just look at NALP people. Reed Smith hired 4 2L summers this year (none from t14 schools if my info is correct and 2 from pitt), Buchanan 3, Jones Day 4-6, K&L 6, Babst Calland 4, Thorp Reed 2. Morgan Lewis, Cohen & Grigsby, Eckert Seamans and others did not hire a single summer associate. So that's a maximum of 25 summer positions in the city paying 100k+. Those odds are pretty slim. I do appreciate the idea that Pitt and Duquesne are well respected in pittsburgh; they are. But that doesn't mean that firms are hiring from them these days. It is unfortunate that Pitt doesn't give very large scholarships to excellent candidates. Their policy seems to differ from other schools in that respect. And I'm not sure about that anecdote about a decent percentage of Pitt's 2L class getting paying jobs because I've heard otherwise. I do agree, that if you could score one of these 100k+ jobs you could live like a king (assuming minimal loans) because of the cost of living (and the fact that pittsburgh is a great place to live). I second what everyone has said about the insular and connected nature of the market but will also add that not too many t14-type grads want to go to pittsburgh, so if you go to a t14 school you will have a leg up. Also Notre Dame is comparatively more respected in pittsburgh than other places because it is still a very catholic city. The Pittsburgh legal economy for an entry level attorney right now is brutal to crack. I'm not saying it can't be done, but at least go in recognizing that fact.

I just want to take a minute to point out what an excellent post this was (and not just because it indirectly vindicates my decision to attend a T14 at sticker ). On each point, it was spot on.

I also found this post very helpful. It's really pushing me to retake the LSAT to see if I can't add 2-3 points (putting me at 169-170) to push through into the bottom half of the T14. I started this thread to find the best way to crack into the top firms in Pittsburgh (like Reed Smith, K&L, etc). It seems my options are the following:

1: go to Pitt and graduate top 5-10%
2: go to ND/Vandy and graduate top 20-25%
3: go to a T14 and simply graduate?

Would bottom half of T14 (I'm thinking Duke/Mich/UVA), regardless of class rank, put me into a better position than going to Pitt and not hitting top 5%?

[jack duluoz]

To dispel this notion that if you can't find a job paying 100k+ in pittsburgh you'll be able to find one paying 60+ and live like you are in Chicago or NY: no, I can't think off of the top of my head of more than 5 firms that pay from 60-100k to start in Pittsburgh. And they probably hire less than 10 entry level associates per year. Almost all of them do not have summer associate programs, and if they do, they may have 1 or 2 summers. Just look at NALP people. Reed Smith hired 4 2L summers this year (none from t14 schools if my info is correct and 2 from pitt), Buchanan 3, Jones Day 4-6, K&L 6, Babst Calland 4, Thorp Reed 2. Morgan Lewis, Cohen & Grigsby, Eckert Seamans and others did not hire a single summer associate. So that's a maximum of 25 summer positions in the city paying 100k+. Those odds are pretty slim. I do appreciate the idea that Pitt and Duquesne are well respected in pittsburgh; they are. But that doesn't mean that firms are hiring from them these days. It is unfortunate that Pitt doesn't give very large scholarships to excellent candidates. Their policy seems to differ from other schools in that respect. And I'm not sure about that anecdote about a decent percentage of Pitt's 2L class getting paying jobs because I've heard otherwise. I do agree, that if you could score one of these 100k+ jobs you could live like a king (assuming minimal loans) because of the cost of living (and the fact that pittsburgh is a great place to live). I second what everyone has said about the insular and connected nature of the market but will also add that not too many t14-type grads want to go to pittsburgh, so if you go to a t14 school you will have a leg up. Also Notre Dame is comparatively more respected in pittsburgh than other places because it is still a very catholic city. The Pittsburgh legal economy for an entry level attorney right now is brutal to crack. I'm not saying it can't be done, but at least go in recognizing that fact.

I just want to take a minute to point out what an excellent post this was (and not just because it indirectly vindicates my decision to attend a T14 at sticker ). On each point, it was spot on.

I also found this post very helpful. It's really pushing me to retake the LSAT to see if I can't add 2-3 points (putting me at 169-170) to push through into the bottom half of the T14. I started this thread to find the best way to crack into the top firms in Pittsburgh (like Reed Smith, K&L, etc). It seems my options are the following:

1: go to Pitt and graduate top 5-10%
2: go to ND/Vandy and graduate top 20-25%
3: go to a T14 and simply graduate?

Would bottom half of T14 (I'm thinking Duke/Mich/UVA), regardless of class rank, put me into a better position than going to Pitt and not hitting top 5%?

i really doubt it in pittsburgh. it might help in other legal markets, but you wont have biglaw and a ton of debt. Unless Yale is an option, ITE, you just have to do relatively well no matter where u go.

for big law in pittsburgh it's probably more like:

1: go to Pitt/ND and graduate top 5-10%
2: go to Vandy and graduate top 20-25%
3: go to a T14 and graduate top 40% (50% could suffice, but for a good shot id say 40 or better)

im sure someone has a better idea than me (or at least think they do) but simply graduating from T14 ITE is by no means a ticket to biglaw in pittsburgh.

[badwithpseudonyms]

i really doubt it in pittsburgh. it might help in other legal markets, but you wont have biglaw and a ton of debt. Unless Yale is an option, ITE, you just have to do relatively well no matter where u go.

for big law in pittsburgh it's probably more like:

1: go to Pitt/ND and graduate top 5-10%
2: go to Vandy and graduate top 20-25%
3: go to a T14 and graduate top 40% (50% could suffice, but for a good shot id say 40 or better)

im sure someone has a better idea than me (or at least think they do) but simply graduating from T14 ITE is by no means a ticket to biglaw in pittsburgh.

I'm going to go ahead and +1 jack's estimates. Of course, those numbers are just that, estimates. So take them with a grain of salt. Pitt ITE is probably closer to 5% than 10%. Most of the ND guys I see on NALP at Pittsburgh biglaw firms were still LR-caliber students. And even 25% at Vandy would make me nervous with no logical ties to the area. Depending on which T14 we're talking about 50% is a pretty reasonable estimate. In the heyday of things, just making it to the T14 was enough to land you a primo job. Not so much the case these days.

FWIW, I chose the T14 + debt over Pitt + minimal debt (and ND + a little less debt) because it seems like a surer thing (especially when you factor in IBR), which ITE, is to say still not very sure at all.

I fantasize that I could have gone to Pitt for cheap (or IUB for free), been top of my class, and landed the market-rate job without going into loads of soul-crushing debt, but the margin of error with that scenario is very thin, and I, unfortunately, have bigger goals than small time stuff or being a big fish in a small pond.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone familiar with the politics at Babst Calland? I.e. do fracking opponents dislike 'em?