The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:20 am

What kind of stats do you need to get a jerb with a firm that practices business immigration? i.e. Fragomen. I have relevant coursework, I'm fluent in other languages and have plenty of immigration experience, but all of it was with Legal Aid/non-profits.

TheFutureLawyer · Post by **TheFutureLawyer** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:39 am

BVest wrote:I don't think 2 page cover letters are ever OK. If there's something you feel you need to cover, it sounds like you need to include a personal statement. Probably double-spaced and single page will cover whatever it was you were trying to say in your cover letter

Double spaced?

Mine's 1.15, and most of the examples I've ever seen were in closer to single than double.

sd5289 · Post by **sd5289** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:56 am

BlueLotus wrote:What's the best writing sample to use--an advocacy memo/motion from Advanced Legal Writing or an objective research memo from my 1L summer jerb? Unfortunately my 2L summer jerb did not give me a good opportunity to craft a solid writing sample (I drafted mostly form pleadings).

I used a writing sample from my 1L summer job (motion response for a pretty complicated issue) while applying because it was more relevant to the offices I applied to. Seemed to work out since I have first rounds set up with those offices this month.

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:22 am

TheFutureLawyer wrote:
BVest wrote:I don't think 2 page cover letters are ever OK. If there's something you feel you need to cover, it sounds like you need to include a personal statement. Probably double-spaced and single page will cover whatever it was you were trying to say in your cover letter
Double spaced?

Mine's 1.15, and most of the examples I've ever seen were in closer to single than double.

Yeah, all of my CLs are single spaced. Writing samples, though, are double spaced.

worldtraveler · Post by **worldtraveler** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:10 pm

BlueLotus wrote:I know that worldtraveler said that 2 page resumes are OK for PI fellowships. Does the same ring true for cover letters for PI fellowships?

What's the best writing sample to use--an advocacy memo/motion from Advanced Legal Writing or an objective research memo from my 1L summer jerb? Unfortunately my 2L summer jerb did not give me a good opportunity to craft a solid writing sample (I drafted mostly form pleadings).

I have never granted an interview to someone with a 2 page cover letter. If you are writing that much, some of it is either irrelevant or you're just not being concise.

The best writing sample is your best writing, period (unless the job specifies they want an objective or non-academic sample). And nothing is stopping you from just creating the writing sample you want on the topic you want if you really need to.

BVest · Post by **BVest** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:57 pm

TheFutureLawyer wrote:
BVest wrote:I don't think 2 page cover letters are ever OK. If there's something you feel you need to cover, it sounds like you need to include a personal statement. Probably double-spaced and single page will cover whatever it was you were trying to say in your cover letter
Double spaced?

Mine's 1.15, and most of the examples I've ever seen were in closer to single than double.

Sorry, I definitely could have been more clear. What I meant is, if you have so much information you need to convey that you were otherwise going to have a 2-page cover letter, then submit:

Very short (transmittal style) cover letter (single spaced) - the body should be about 50-100 words total
plus
One-page personal statement (double spaced)

ETA context for anyone who didn't see where this came from: I'm talking about for PI fellowships (and, for that matter, the same applies for clerkships), not for standard jobs. For run-of-the-mill jobs, a PS will be looked upon very, very strangely.

crysmissmichelle · Post by **crysmissmichelle** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:33 pm

BlueLotus wrote:What kind of stats do you need to get a jerb with a firm that practices business immigration? i.e. Fragomen. I have relevant coursework, I'm fluent in other languages and have plenty of immigration experience, but all of it was with Legal Aid/non-profits.

Connections. At my firm the two newest hires were in the top two of their class and my firm has a large business immigration practice but MUCH smaller than Fragomen. Business immigration hiring and legal aid non-profits are kind of exclusive against one another. They think one personality does not match the other. You have to find a way to counteract that presumption. . . business immigration thinks of itself as an extension of corporate law, whereas family and non-profit immigration deals the human side. . .

Have you any experience with PERM, I-140, H-1Bs to talk up? If not, try to talk up familiarity with immigration regulations, USCIS structure and processes and any past experience with corporations, business and business client communication.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:35 pm

Recent grad, need some advice. Scored an interview with a firm in my desired practice area. They asked for UGrad transcripts. I severely f-ed up UGrad, 2.7ish with the first two years being complete wastes. No excuses, just messed around too much. Do I write a note to the hiring committee?

FWIW, did well in law school. T2, top 12%, EIC of secondary journal, cum laude.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Recent grad, need some advice. Scored an interview with a firm in my desired practice area. They asked for UGrad transcripts. I severely f-ed up UGrad, 2.7ish with the first two years being complete wastes. No excuses, just messed around too much. Do I write a note to the hiring committee?

FWIW, did well in law school. T2, top 12%, EIC of secondary journal, cum laude.

I def wouldn't write an addendum. No need to call attention to it. There's a chance they won't even look. I would probably not send until after interview and make up some bullshit about processing time if they ask.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:44 pm

Okay so I just had an interview with a mid-size firm. It is an insurance defense shop and honestly I am not sure if I am a good fit. I prefer to work in the public sector as a public defender (or *gasp* a prosecutor), but the problem is that the PD office I interviewed at pretty much waitlisted me and the other wont interview me until I have my bar results.

I am not sure if I want to work for this mid-size firm only to bounce when I get hired by a PD office. Any thoughts, ideas, or advice? I got a bad vibe from the firm during my interview that the office may be a hell pool, hence my doubt.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2014 grad awaiting bar results. Any advice on how to secure interviews right now?

How are you guys even aware of who's hiring? I feel totally out of the loop right now. I've pretty much just been checking on my school's Symplicity...

Symplicity and mass mailing.

crysmissmichelle · Post by **crysmissmichelle** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2014 grad awaiting bar results. Any advice on how to secure interviews right now?

How are you guys even aware of who's hiring? I feel totally out of the loop right now. I've pretty much just been checking on my school's Symplicity...
Symplicity and mass mailing.

In addition to Simplicity, I've also been bouncing around at governmentjobs.com, Indeed, individual firm websites, state bar association career site and even Craig's list. . .however, I haven't found anything legit to apply to on Craig's list yet. . . .

horriblegb · Post by **horriblegb** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:36 pm

crysmissmichelle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2014 grad awaiting bar results. Any advice on how to secure interviews right now?

How are you guys even aware of who's hiring? I feel totally out of the loop right now. I've pretty much just been checking on my school's Symplicity...
Symplicity and mass mailing.
In addition to Simplicity, I've also been bouncing around at governmentjobs.com, Indeed, individual firm websites, state bar association career site and even Craig's list. . .however, I haven't found anything legit to apply to on Craig's list yet. . . .

Depending on your market, because I am sure they are all different, I think Craigslist can be a very viable option, in fact, that is where I found my current position and I love it.

So I guess I am just adding on that, and dont forget about BYU intercollegiate

deadpanic · Post by **deadpanic** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:Okay so I just had an interview with a mid-size firm. It is an insurance defense shop and honestly I am not sure if I am a good fit. I prefer to work in the public sector as a public defender (or *gasp* a prosecutor), but the problem is that the PD office I interviewed at pretty much waitlisted me and the other wont interview me until I have my bar results.

I am not sure if I want to work for this mid-size firm only to bounce when I get hired by a PD office. Any thoughts, ideas, or advice? I got a bad vibe from the firm during my interview that the office may be a hell pool, hence my doubt.

I would take the job. Depending on your stats, this could be your only shot at a legal job.

PD/DA hiring is really random and you can't count that all the stars will align (funding, openings, etc.).

Also, from what I know, ID firms can be hell but you will get a lot of civil litigation experience that is pretty helpful.

Holly Golightly · Post by **Holly Golightly** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:06 am

PSJD is also a great place to look for jobs. Even if you want a firm, plaintiff's side firms and other cool, random opportunities pop up on there.

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:58 am

crysmissmichelle wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:What kind of stats do you need to get a jerb with a firm that practices business immigration? i.e. Fragomen. I have relevant coursework, I'm fluent in other languages and have plenty of immigration experience, but all of it was with Legal Aid/non-profits.
Connections. At my firm the two newest hires were in the top two of their class and my firm has a large business immigration practice but MUCH smaller than Fragomen. Business immigration hiring and legal aid non-profits are kind of exclusive against one another. They think one personality does not match the other. You have to find a way to counteract that presumption. . . business immigration thinks of itself as an extension of corporate law, whereas family and non-profit immigration deals the human side. . .

Have you any experience with PERM, I-140, H-1Bs to talk up? If not, try to talk up familiarity with immigration regulations, USCIS structure and processes and any past experience with corporations, business and business client communication.

I have experience with U visas, T visas, VAWA, removal defense, asylum, SIJS, DACA, and naturalization.

crysmissmichelle · Post by **crysmissmichelle** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:08 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
crysmissmichelle wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:What kind of stats do you need to get a jerb with a firm that practices business immigration? i.e. Fragomen. I have relevant coursework, I'm fluent in other languages and have plenty of immigration experience, but all of it was with Legal Aid/non-profits.
Connections. At my firm the two newest hires were in the top two of their class and my firm has a large business immigration practice but MUCH smaller than Fragomen. Business immigration hiring and legal aid non-profits are kind of exclusive against one another. They think one personality does not match the other. You have to find a way to counteract that presumption. . . business immigration thinks of itself as an extension of corporate law, whereas family and non-profit immigration deals the human side. . .

Have you any experience with PERM, I-140, H-1Bs to talk up? If not, try to talk up familiarity with immigration regulations, USCIS structure and processes and any past experience with corporations, business and business client communication.
I have experience with U visas, T visas, VAWA, removal defense, asylum, SIJS, DACA, and naturalization.

I know, but VAWA, asylum and DACA are almost strictly pro bono cases in business immigration firms and naturalization is a low profit case type (the end game. . .they've natz'd and don't need you any more). I'm not judging; I'm just telling you the difference between the two. I did non-profit first and then business immigration next. Each type has a specific personality. . . if you want to switch to one from the other you have to sell yourself as capable with that type. Business immigration = corporate.

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:34 pm

crysmissmichelle wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
crysmissmichelle wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:What kind of stats do you need to get a jerb with a firm that practices business immigration? i.e. Fragomen. I have relevant coursework, I'm fluent in other languages and have plenty of immigration experience, but all of it was with Legal Aid/non-profits.
Connections. At my firm the two newest hires were in the top two of their class and my firm has a large business immigration practice but MUCH smaller than Fragomen. Business immigration hiring and legal aid non-profits are kind of exclusive against one another. They think one personality does not match the other. You have to find a way to counteract that presumption. . . business immigration thinks of itself as an extension of corporate law, whereas family and non-profit immigration deals the human side. . .

Have you any experience with PERM, I-140, H-1Bs to talk up? If not, try to talk up familiarity with immigration regulations, USCIS structure and processes and any past experience with corporations, business and business client communication.

I have experience with U visas, T visas, VAWA, removal defense, asylum, SIJS, DACA, and naturalization.
I know, but VAWA, asylum and DACA are almost strictly pro bono cases in business immigration firms and naturalization is a low profit case type (the end game. . .they've natz'd and don't need you any more). I'm not judging; I'm just telling you the difference between the two. I did non-profit first and then business immigration next. Each type has a specific personality. . . if you want to switch to one from the other you have to sell yourself as capable with that type. Business immigration = corporate.

What kinds of grades do you generally need for Fragomen and other business immigration firms? Is journal important?

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:49 am

What kinds of stats do you need for AmeriCorps Legal Fellowships? Will being an AmeriCorps alum be a boost?

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:05 pm

Hello all,

Long time lurker here. Just wanted to thank everyone in this thread for their insights and support. I will be working as an associate at a full service immigration firm (25 attorneys).

Some stats:

-Average grades at a law school ranked in the 60's
-fluent in spanish and french
-was unemployed for 9 months after graduation

For everyone else that is still in the vale, keep your head up. You will get an offer eventually.

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hello all,

Long time lurker here. Just wanted to thank everyone in this thread for their insights and support. I will be working as an associate at a full service immigration firm (25 attorneys).

Some stats:

-Average grades at a law school ranked in the 60's
-fluent in spanish and french
-was unemployed for 9 months after graduation

For everyone else that is still in the vale, keep your head up. You will get an offer eventually.

Congrats!! What did you do for the 9 months you were unemployed? Did you volunteer anywhere? Attend CLEs? Network? Is being a member of AILA a "boost"? (student membership costs $50)

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:34 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hello all,

Long time lurker here. Just wanted to thank everyone in this thread for their insights and support. I will be working as an associate at a full service immigration firm (25 attorneys).

Some stats:

-Average grades at a law school ranked in the 60's
-fluent in spanish and french
-was unemployed for 9 months after graduation

For everyone else that is still in the vale, keep your head up. You will get an offer eventually.

Congrats!! What did you do for the 9 months you were unemployed? Did you volunteer anywhere? Attend CLEs? Network? Is being a member of AILA a "boost"? (student membership costs $50)

Well, after I took the bar, I accepted an unpaid internship at an immigration firm. I worked there for a few months to develop my skills and get some real world experience (very helpful). I did not volunteer, but I do highly suggest it. At the very least, you get a chance to network with other people passionate about immigration law. I attended one CLE, but it was unrelated to immigration law. As for membership in AILA, I highly suggest joining. Basically every immigration practitioner is a member. This is, of course, assuming that you want to practice immigration law.

One word of advice: be very careful in the private sector. There are a lot of terrible immigration practitioners out there. If you get an offer, make sure to talk to some of the associates working at the firm before you commit to the position.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote: There are a lot of terrible immigration practitioners out there. If you get an offer, make sure to talk to some of the associates working at the firm before you commit to the position.

Agreed. This is the scary part of looking for immigration jobs

Is your position at the same firm where you volunteered?

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:04 pm

If I'm applying for non-legal temp jobs, should I leave some of the law stuff off my resume? I think I have to leave my law degree on there (otherwise I will have a 3 year gap on my resume), but what about the legal internships?

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: There are a lot of terrible immigration practitioners out there. If you get an offer, make sure to talk to some of the associates working at the firm before you commit to the position.
Agreed. This is the scary part of looking for immigration jobs Is your position at the same firm where you volunteered?

terrible in terms of what? hours and work-life balance?

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