2021 Special Bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

Timing of this whole thing is perfect, just got vault survey so get to give 1s to all the cheap ass firms.

I demand to see DPW above Skadden at least +V3 both in NYC and national. Let's put some $$$ sign on preftige rank.

Davis Polk's PPP is apparently top 2 now.

[Anonymous User]

Timing of this whole thing is perfect, just got vault survey so get to give 1s to all the cheap ass firms.

I demand to see DPW above Skadden at least +V3 both in NYC and national. Let's put some $$$ sign on preftige rank.

Davis Polk's PPP is apparently top 2 now.

PPEP is not everything - otherwise Cahill should be ranked higher than cleary/debevoise and on par with cravath; KE/PW should also be ranked higher than Cravath and SulCrom. But we all know that's not the case.

[Anonymous User]

Timing of this whole thing is perfect, just got vault survey so get to give 1s to all the cheap ass firms.

I demand to see DPW above Skadden at least +V3 both in NYC and national. Let's put some $$$ sign on preftige rank.

Davis Polk's PPP is apparently top 2 now.

Also following this logic, PW and KE would be more prestigious than DPW and Skadden until this year (both PW and KE were head and shoulders above DPW's PPP until this year). But obvs that's not true. Presftige is a weird thing.

[Anonymous User]

Timing of this whole thing is perfect, just got vault survey so get to give 1s to all the cheap ass firms.

I demand to see DPW above Skadden at least +V3 both in NYC and national. Let's put some $$$ sign on preftige rank.

Davis Polk's PPP is apparently top 2 now.

DPW is obviously a top-tier firm, but it doesn't make sense to give PPEP any real weight in the rankings because several factors that go into determining PPEP work against the interest of associates, like leverage.

All else being equal a firm that has 10 associates for each partner will have a higher PPEP than a firm that has 5 associates for each partner, but from the perspective of an incoming associate it's probably better to go to the firm with the lower leverage.

[Anonymous User]

Timing of this whole thing is perfect, just got vault survey so get to give 1s to all the cheap ass firms.

I demand to see DPW above Skadden at least +V3 both in NYC and national. Let's put some $$$ sign on preftige rank.

Davis Polk's PPP is apparently top 2 now.

Also following this logic, PW and KE would be more prestigious than DPW and Skadden until this year (both PW and KE were head and shoulders above DPW's PPP until this year). But obvs that's not true. Presftige is a weird thing.

And yet this is exactly the line of argumentation that KE ppl make over and over on this forum

[Anonymous User]

Timing of this whole thing is perfect, just got vault survey so get to give 1s to all the cheap ass firms.

I demand to see DPW above Skadden at least +V3 both in NYC and national. Let's put some $$$ sign on preftige rank.

Davis Polk's PPP is apparently top 2 now.

Also following this logic, PW and KE would be more prestigious than DPW and Skadden until this year (both PW and KE were head and shoulders above DPW's PPP until this year). But obvs that's not true. Presftige is a weird thing.

And yet this is exactly the line of argumentation that KE ppl make over and over on this forum

Chill out guys.... we all know preftige s not all about PPP and Kirkland is not gonna cut it with their ever increasing profits, at least in nyc. I just wanted to see firms like DPW that tried to bring some more $$ to associates (even if their intention was not 100% for associates' better financials) to go home with some reward they would appreciate, which I can only quickly think of is higher rankings on Vault. It might bring some motivation, even little, to do it again when needed.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone here is attaching so much of their self-worth to prestige and/or vault ranking...

[Anonymous User]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

[cheaptilts]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

[nahumya]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

Associates look at vault but partners looking to lateral look at ppp, especially young rainmakers with portable books, who are pretty rare and valuable.

[Anonymous User]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

PPEP rankings get pretty close to measuring PPEP which is a data focused indicator of value per hour. I'm really not clear what Vault actually measures but whatever it is, sounds less correlated to prestige than value of a lawyer's time.

Imagine law school rankings stopped focusing on the LSAT/GPA and instead on a survey of law students.

[Anonymous User]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

Associates look at vault but partners looking to lateral look at ppp, especially young rainmakers with portable books, who are pretty rare and valuable.

And these partners are running to KE while second-year associates with $200k in law school debt from picking the highest-ranked T14 who would admit them are sneering at the decision to take less preftige.

[cheaptilts]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

PPEP rankings get pretty close to measuring PPEP which is a data focused indicator of value per hour. I'm really not clear what Vault actually measures but whatever it is, sounds less correlated to prestige than value of a lawyer's time.

Imagine law school rankings stopped focusing on the LSAT/GPA and instead on a survey of law students.

You should learn what Vault measures.

[Anonymous User]

And these partners are running to KE while second-year associates with $200k in law school debt from picking the highest-ranked T14 who would admit them are sneering at the decision to take less preftige.

Isn't sticker price and full loans like $350k+ debt at graduation now? I had $200k in debt at graduation and had slightly more than a half ride and this was 5 years ago. So what I'm saying is we need a bigger raise.

[2013]

Let’s all focus on PPEP and go work at Cole, Scott & Kissane.

[Auxilio]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

PPEP rankings get pretty close to measuring PPEP which is a data focused indicator of value per hour. I'm really not clear what Vault actually measures but whatever it is, sounds less correlated to prestige than value of a lawyer's time.

Imagine law school rankings stopped focusing on the LSAT/GPA and instead on a survey of law students.

(1) no idea why you are anon for this

(2) Vault rankings are litterally a survey sent out to associates that asks you to rank each firm 1 to 10 on how "prestigious" they are. Like, it literally only measures prestige.

[ExpOriental]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

PPEP rankings get pretty close to measuring PPEP which is a data focused indicator of value per hour. I'm really not clear what Vault actually measures but whatever it is, sounds less correlated to prestige than value of a lawyer's time.

Imagine law school rankings stopped focusing on the LSAT/GPA and instead on a survey of law students.

(1) no idea why you are anon for this

(2) Vault rankings are litterally a survey sent out to associates that asks you to rank each firm 1 to 10 on how "prestigious" they are. Like, it literally only measures prestige.

And as we all know, Vault uses a flawless methodology that doesn't result in any nonsensical results, and everyone agrees that White & Case is the more prestigious of the "W&Cs", and that DLA Piper is more prestigious than Susman and MTO.

Now's the part where you bend over backwards to explain how name recognition in Topeka or whatever is a valid measurement of "prestige," and that the incredibly lengthy list of exceptions and caveats you have to concede don't render Vault rankings virtually worthless.

Here's a crazy notion for you - just because Vault claims to measure "prestige," which isn't really measurable to begin with, does not mean it does so effectively.

That's not to say PPEP is a meaningfully better metric, but it at least bears a semblance of reliability.

[Anonymous User]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

PPEP rankings get pretty close to measuring PPEP which is a data focused indicator of value per hour. I'm really not clear what Vault actually measures but whatever it is, sounds less correlated to prestige than value of a lawyer's time.

Imagine law school rankings stopped focusing on the LSAT/GPA and instead on a survey of law students.

(1) no idea why you are anon for this

(2) Vault rankings are litterally a survey sent out to associates that asks you to rank each firm 1 to 10 on how "prestigious" they are. Like, it literally only measures prestige.

And as we all know, Vault uses a flawless methodology that doesn't result in any nonsensical results, and everyone agrees that White & Case is the more prestigious of the "W&Cs", and that DLA Piper is more prestigious than Susman and MTO.

Now's the part where you bend over backwards to explain how name recognition in Topeka or whatever is a valid measurement of "prestige," and that the incredibly lengthy list of exceptions and caveats you have to concede don't render Vault rankings virtually worthless.

Here's a crazy notion for you - just because Vault claims to measure "prestige," which isn't really measurable to begin with, does not mean it does so effectively.

That's not to say PPEP is a meaningfully better metric, but it at least bears a semblance of reliability.

Non-Topeka rankings: https://www.vault.com/best-companies-to ... n/new-york

[Anonymous User]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

PPEP rankings get pretty close to measuring PPEP which is a data focused indicator of value per hour. I'm really not clear what Vault actually measures but whatever it is, sounds less correlated to prestige than value of a lawyer's time.

Imagine law school rankings stopped focusing on the LSAT/GPA and instead on a survey of law students.

(1) no idea why you are anon for this

(2) Vault rankings are litterally a survey sent out to associates that asks you to rank each firm 1 to 10 on how "prestigious" they are. Like, it literally only measures prestige.

And as we all know, Vault uses a flawless methodology that doesn't result in any nonsensical results, and everyone agrees that White & Case is the more prestigious of the "W&Cs", and that DLA Piper is more prestigious than Susman and MTO.

Now's the part where you bend over backwards to explain how name recognition in Topeka or whatever is a valid measurement of "prestige," and that the incredibly lengthy list of exceptions and caveats you have to concede don't render Vault rankings virtually worthless.

Here's a crazy notion for you - just because Vault claims to measure "prestige," which isn't really measurable to begin with, does not mean it does so effectively.

That's not to say PPEP is a meaningfully better metric, but it at least bears a semblance of reliability.

Non-Topeka rankings: https://www.vault.com/best-companies-to ... n/new-york

Those rankings are good for New York (and really just large corporate practices in New York), which a bunch of people use as shorthand for the U.S. legal market when that is not the case. PPEP is a better apples to apples metric that you can use to compare literally any firm in the country, anywhere it may be. DC, Chicago, LA, or even Topeka.

[cheaptilts]

Guess the word to which these definitions apply:

“standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion“


“widespread respect and admiration felt for someone or something on the basis of a perception of their achievements or quality.

[Anonymous User]

Imagine thinking historical vault rankings are a more sensible determination of prestige than PPEP rankings

But...they are? One literally measures perceived prestige irrespective of PPEP. The other measures PPEP. I would think that recent historical data of perceived prestige is likely more probative on the question of firm prestige in the marketplace than data that literally does not measure prestige. But who knows.

PPEP rankings get pretty close to measuring PPEP which is a data focused indicator of value per hour. I'm really not clear what Vault actually measures but whatever it is, sounds less correlated to prestige than value of a lawyer's time.

Imagine law school rankings stopped focusing on the LSAT/GPA and instead on a survey of law students.

(1) no idea why you are anon for this

(2) Vault rankings are litterally a survey sent out to associates that asks you to rank each firm 1 to 10 on how "prestigious" they are. Like, it literally only measures prestige.

And as we all know, Vault uses a flawless methodology that doesn't result in any nonsensical results, and everyone agrees that White & Case is the more prestigious of the "W&Cs", and that DLA Piper is more prestigious than Susman and MTO.

Now's the part where you bend over backwards to explain how name recognition in Topeka or whatever is a valid measurement of "prestige," and that the incredibly lengthy list of exceptions and caveats you have to concede don't render Vault rankings virtually worthless.

Here's a crazy notion for you - just because Vault claims to measure "prestige," which isn't really measurable to begin with, does not mean it does so effectively.

That's not to say PPEP is a meaningfully better metric, but it at least bears a semblance of reliability.

Non-Topeka rankings: https://www.vault.com/best-companies-to ... n/new-york

Those rankings are good for New York (and really just large corporate practices in New York), which a bunch of people use as shorthand for the U.S. legal market when that is not the case. PPEP is a better apples to apples metric that you can use to compare literally any firm in the country, anywhere it may be. DC, Chicago, LA, or even Topeka.

lol this doesn't make any sense. Shingle & Podunk LLP could have an extremely high PPEP just by over-leveraging the firm with 20 associates to every partner and aggressively de-equitizing all the boomers who type with 2 fingers. Doesn't mean the firm is any good.

There are personal injury assembly lines all over that have PPEP's that blow the V10 out of the water because they hire armies of T3 grads to do endless grunt work for 40k/year. Great if you have an equity stake but probably some of the least "prestigious" work that a law student can do.

[Anonymous User]

Right, Cadwalader's PPP fell a bunch this year primarily because they de-leveraged a bit. PPP is very skewed by leverage. Profits per attorney or revenue per attorney would probably both be better measures of the actual underlying economics of a firm. I still don't think that necessarily equates to "prestige" though. Prestige is a bit more amorphous than "who makes the most money". For instance, working on a SCOTUS case is extremely prestigious but might not bring in the most revenue to a firm.

[cheaptilts]

Right, Cadwalader's PPP fell a bunch this year primarily because they de-leveraged a bit. PPP is very skewed by leverage. Profits per attorney or revenue per attorney would probably both be better measures of the actual underlying economics of a firm. I still don't think that necessarily equates to "prestige" though. Prestige is a bit more amorphous than "who makes the most money". For instance, working on a SCOTUS case is extremely prestigious but bring in the most revenue to a firm.

And bingo was his name-o

[Anonymous User]

Yes, prestige is more amorphous than RPL or PPEP but we have pretty good data for RPL/PPEP metrics. We do not have good data for "prestige" so would you rather rely on good data that correlates well but not perfectly with prestige or just garbage data that attempts to measure "prestige"?

I think the answer is clearly good data but people can disagree.

[cheaptilts]

Yes, prestige is more amorphous than RPL or PPEP but we have pretty good data for RPL/PPEP metrics. We do not have good data for "prestige" so would you rather rely on good data that correlates well but not perfectly with prestige or just garbage data that attempts to measure "prestige"?

I think the answer is clearly good data but people can disagree.

We actually have really good data to measure general prestige. A survey called Vault is sent around to hundreds of law firms around the country and asks recipients to rank firms around the country based on their perceived prestige. Then, the survey asks practitioners in specific regions to rank firms in that particular regions. Then there’s a survey asking to rank firms by specialities. There’s another regarding the prestige of boutiques, etc.

Why would any sort of financial metric would be more probative of a firm’s prestige nationally and in its specific region than that? And what sort of missing data do you have in mind? And why is everyone anonymous?

I think it’s not super useful to consider the general prestige of a large firm to make decisions. But it’s certainly useful in some situations.

I think it’s definitely worth considering the financial strength of a firm you intend to stay long term (or even short term). And of course, there’s strong correlation between firms thought of as prestigious and super rich firms. But idk why PPEP or RPL or w/e would be a better indicator of firm prestige among lawyers than a survey sent to lawyers asking them to rank firms based on firm prestige.

But maybe I’m just dumb