Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[Anonymous User]

. I've gotten through life almost entirely by being able to get my act together for 2 weeks a year, and I'm getting my ass handed to me. Trying to get mental stamina just like that is as hard as trying to go from the couch to running a 26-mile marathon..

That is my greatest fear. Any advice?

I'd start building it up now. For me it was a downward spiral. The more you're rewarded for being lazy, the lazier you become. I don't know if it's because I'm self-destructive, an adrenaline junkie or plain lazy, but the culmination was pretty much taking the bar exam cold. The issue is that almost every law on the bar exam emerges from the same core concepts so you can "get law" without knowing the law you're tested on. The stuff you do in big law is so specialized and your role so mundane that these core skills don't translate. I brought in my same work ethic, and got scolded pretty badly. Maybe I'll adapt. Maybe I'll be fired. Not really too concerned. You can't think too much about these things or you'll drive yourself crazy.

[jjjetplane]

. I've gotten through life almost entirely by being able to get my act together for 2 weeks a year, and I'm getting my ass handed to me. Trying to get mental stamina just like that is as hard as trying to go from the couch to running a 26-mile marathon..

That is my greatest fear. Any advice?

I'd start building it up now. For me it was a downward spiral. The more you're rewarded for being lazy, the lazier you become. I don't know if it's because I'm self-destructive, an adrenaline junkie or plain lazy, but the culmination was pretty much taking the bar exam cold. The issue is that almost every law on the bar exam emerges from the same core concepts so you can "get law" without knowing the law you're tested on. The stuff you do in big law is so specialized and your role so mundane that these core skills don't translate. I brought in my same work ethic, and got scolded pretty badly. Maybe I'll adapt. Maybe I'll be fired. Not really too concerned. You can't think too much about these things or you'll drive yourself crazy.

Describe scoldings please

[Anonymous User]

. I've gotten through life almost entirely by being able to get my act together for 2 weeks a year, and I'm getting my ass handed to me. Trying to get mental stamina just like that is as hard as trying to go from the couch to running a 26-mile marathon..

That is my greatest fear. Any advice?

I'd start building it up now. For me it was a downward spiral. The more you're rewarded for being lazy, the lazier you become. I don't know if it's because I'm self-destructive, an adrenaline junkie or plain lazy, but the culmination was pretty much taking the bar exam cold. The issue is that almost every law on the bar exam emerges from the same core concepts so you can "get law" without knowing the law you're tested on. The stuff you do in big law is so specialized and your role so mundane that these core skills don't translate. I brought in my same work ethic, and got scolded pretty badly. Maybe I'll adapt. Maybe I'll be fired. Not really too concerned. You can't think too much about these things or you'll drive yourself crazy.

Describe scoldings please

In the corporate world you need to pick up on subtle cues and gestures to even know if you've been scolded. Honestly, if all it was were the crazy story you're hoping for of a drill sergeant calling me a pile of shit and chucking a desk at my head with no long term repercussions, I'd sign for that. Don't really mind that kind of thing.

[PennBull]

I think my job satisfaction is due to the firm I am at. I very rarely bill more than 175 hours in a month, and I take 4-6 weeks of vacation a year. It is not really in our culture to bill like crazy, and partners will actively help you manage your workload/offload to others when they can see you are slammed or you complain about it. I just aim to be about 50 hours above my admittedly modest, alternative billing target.

I thought I had exactly this until we got busy.

under 2k hours + 4-6 weeks of real vacay + supportive partners is like a unicorn biglaw gig.

this is why I'm so hesitant to leave, but I hate NYC so fucking much

[Johann]

i probably billed somewhere around 400 of my 2000 hours at home last year. i have no idea what our facetime policy is, but i do a lot of my work for a partner who travels a lot. so whenever he's traveling i can skip a friday here or there or leave the office at 5:00 if he's gone and i can dip out without anyone noticing.

unfortunately, i got shifted to a longer term group project this year so the people i interact with has gone way up and thus my need to be in the office has gone way up. work from home has gone from like 20% in 2015 to 5% in 2016. fucking sucks.

[dedede]

I'm an NYC biglaw fourth year who primarily does M&A. Though I've enjoyed biglaw so far, I also acknowledge that my experience, at least based on the accounts that I'm reading in this thread, has been somewhat atypical. I've never billed over 1,900 hours (including pro bono), but this is considered enough to be bonus-eligible at my firm, so I've always been able to receive a bonus. Our deals tend to be staffed pretty leanly, so a corporate team often consists of just the partner and either one or two associates. This didn't completely eliminate mindnumbery as a junior, but I can honestly say that I was getting fairly substantive experience from the very beginning. Finally (and most importantly), I work with good people. This isn't to say that I love every single person that I work with, but I get along fine with just about all of them and have formed real friendships with more than a few. Personalities range from somewhat aloof to genuinely kind, which I think is about as good as it gets in any scenario, professional or otherwise.

That being said, I still don't see myself doing this kind of work forever. The experience has FAR exceeded my expectations, though.

[krads153]

I'm an NYC biglaw fourth year who primarily does M&A. Though I've enjoyed biglaw so far, I also acknowledge that my experience, at least based on the accounts that I'm reading in this thread, has been somewhat atypical. I've never billed over 1,900 hours (including pro bono), but this is considered enough to be bonus-eligible at my firm, so I've always been able to receive a bonus. Our deals tend to be staffed pretty leanly, so a corporate team often consists of just the partner and either one or two associates. This didn't completely eliminate mindnumbery as a junior, but I can honestly say that I was getting fairly substantive experience from the very beginning. Finally (and most importantly), I work with good people. This isn't to say that I love every single person that I work with, but I get along fine with just about all of them and have formed real friendships with more than a few. Personalities range from somewhat aloof to genuinely kind, which I think is about as good as it gets in any scenario, professional or otherwise.

That being said, I still don't see myself doing this kind of work forever. The experience has FAR exceeded my expectations, though.

Oh wow, yeah your job does sound like unicorn biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an NYC biglaw fourth year who primarily does M&A. Though I've enjoyed biglaw so far, I also acknowledge that my experience, at least based on the accounts that I'm reading in this thread, has been somewhat atypical. I've never billed over 1,900 hours (including pro bono), but this is considered enough to be bonus-eligible at my firm, so I've always been able to receive a bonus. Our deals tend to be staffed pretty leanly, so a corporate team often consists of just the partner and either one or two associates. This didn't completely eliminate mindnumbery as a junior, but I can honestly say that I was getting fairly substantive experience from the very beginning. Finally (and most importantly), I work with good people. This isn't to say that I love every single person that I work with, but I get along fine with just about all of them and have formed real friendships with more than a few. Personalities range from somewhat aloof to genuinely kind, which I think is about as good as it gets in any scenario, professional or otherwise.

That being said, I still don't see myself doing this kind of work forever. The experience has FAR exceeded my expectations, though.

Sounds great, congrats. Do you think your experience is consistent with other associates at your firm in the corporate group? What about weekend work and fire drills? As a first year in corporate biglaw and not exactly enjoying it, nice to hear there are good places out there.

[dedede]

I'm an NYC biglaw fourth year who primarily does M&A. Though I've enjoyed biglaw so far, I also acknowledge that my experience, at least based on the accounts that I'm reading in this thread, has been somewhat atypical. I've never billed over 1,900 hours (including pro bono), but this is considered enough to be bonus-eligible at my firm, so I've always been able to receive a bonus. Our deals tend to be staffed pretty leanly, so a corporate team often consists of just the partner and either one or two associates. This didn't completely eliminate mindnumbery as a junior, but I can honestly say that I was getting fairly substantive experience from the very beginning. Finally (and most importantly), I work with good people. This isn't to say that I love every single person that I work with, but I get along fine with just about all of them and have formed real friendships with more than a few. Personalities range from somewhat aloof to genuinely kind, which I think is about as good as it gets in any scenario, professional or otherwise.

That being said, I still don't see myself doing this kind of work forever. The experience has FAR exceeded my expectations, though.

Sounds great, congrats. Do you think your experience is consistent with other associates at your firm in the corporate group? What about weekend work and fire drills? As a first year in corporate biglaw and not exactly enjoying it, nice to hear there are good places out there.

It's hard to know what anyone else is truly feeling, but I'd say the vibe is pretty upbeat on the whole. Some people like to complain, but their complaints don't seem very biglaw-specific, if that makes sense. I've had a fair amount of weekend work, though it's usually just a couple of hours that I can put off until Sunday night. Fire drills are more rare, but I've certainly experienced strings of brutal hours, including a full week where the earliest I went to bed was 4am. I'm not sure if that's par for the course at a place like Wachtell, but I couldn't imagine living life that way.

[Anonymous User]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

[krads153]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

Probably, i don't think 225k is that much for putting up with the downsides of this job (although still a lot better than current pay). If we're talking about 1 million or something- I'd probably do it for a few years, then retire permanently.

If you're a biglaw partner, the pay is great. If you're an associate (even a senior associate), the pay is "meh" for big major markets at least.

[gk101]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

nah. it's not the stagnant salary that makes biglaw terrible (although I guess people will feel less trapped if they could pay off the loans sooner). two-factor theory fits biglaw particularly well

[Anonymous User]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

No, but it would make paying off loans and moving on to another career happen a lot sooner. I just can't stand the work itself, and more money isn't going to change that. I didn't realize how much I'd hate being a second-tier paper pushing drone, and that's really all corporate is even up to the top of the industry.

[Danger Zone]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

No, but it would make paying off loans and moving on to another career happen a lot sooner. I just can't stand the work itself, and more money isn't going to change that. I didn't realize how much I'd hate being a second-tier paper pushing drone, and that's really all corporate is even up to the top of the industry.

YEP

[Desert Fox]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

No, but it would make paying off loans and moving on to another career happen a lot sooner. I just can't stand the work itself, and more money isn't going to change that. I didn't realize how much I'd hate being a second-tier paper pushing drone, and that's really all corporate is even up to the top of the industry.

YEP

I'd love to be a paper pushing drone. Just not a drone expected to work like insane hours and achieve perfection in monotonous work.

[Danger Zone]

Dat in house life bruh

My body is ready

[Tls2016]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

Just for comparison:
Columbia tuition in 2004-2005 was $37,256
2005-2006 was $39,127
2006-2007 was $41,226
https://lawschooltuitionbubble.wordpres ... o-2011/#NY

For 2016-2017 tuition only is $60,624

The debt to salary ratio makes a bigger difference than simply the amount of salary. Plus COL in Manhattan was significantly lower.

[Anonymous User]

Would some of you hate big law this much even if you were paid like most associates in 2007 (225k all in for a first year)?

No, but it would make paying off loans and moving on to another career happen a lot sooner. I just can't stand the work itself, and more money isn't going to change that. I didn't realize how much I'd hate being a second-tier paper pushing drone, and that's really all corporate is even up to the top of the industry.

This was my post and that no should obviously be a yes, I would hate biglaw as much.

To those that just want to pay off loans and go in house, how do you reconcile giving up so early? It seems like the same back office paper pushing bullshit just with (maybe) better hours. I get the appeal if you're full on golden handcuffed and need the money, but once my loans are taken care of I'd like to at least attempt to find a career in something I don't hate.

[Anonymous User]

once my loans are taken care of I'd like to at least attempt to find a career in something I don't hate.

Except by that point you're so super-specialized that nobody would want to hire you except to push papers like you've been doing for the better part of a decade.

[loomy78]

while biglaw may suck, it's likely the best outcome 90%+ of people could ever envision having.

[A. Nony Mouse]

while biglaw may suck, it's likely the best outcome 90%+ of people could ever envision having.

This is a ridiculously sad statement. Also 0Ls aren't supposed to post in legal employment.

[Danger Zone]

while biglaw may suck, it's likely the best outcome 90%+ of people could ever envision having.

Moron

[Lexaholik]

once my loans are taken care of I'd like to at least attempt to find a career in something I don't hate.

Except by that point you're so super-specialized that nobody would want to hire you except to push papers like you've been doing for the better part of a decade.

This is something that I never fully appreciated until after I tried to leave Biglaw. You spend years getting yourself in a position to work at a Super Prestigious Firm to get Awesome Exit Options, but by the time you're financially ready to leave you're only qualified for a narrow selection of jobs. That's something a lot of 0Ls and law students don't fully grasp--everyone thinks that if you work at some V10 you will be set for life.

[Anonymous User]

once my loans are taken care of I'd like to at least attempt to find a career in something I don't hate.

Except by that point you're so super-specialized that nobody would want to hire you except to push papers like you've been doing for the better part of a decade.

This is something that I never fully appreciated until after I tried to leave Biglaw. You spend years getting yourself in a position to work at a Super Prestigious Firm to get Awesome Exit Options, but by the time you're financially ready to leave you're only qualified for a narrow selection of jobs. That's something a lot of 0Ls and law students don't fully grasp--everyone thinks that if you work at some V10 you will be set for life.

I'm planning a complete career reboot. I'd rather be entry level in something else once my loans get to a reasonable level than stay in corporate law. Those "Awesome Exit Options" actually seem pretty terrible once you look into them. The same pointless paper pushing with maybe better hours. That whole jumping to the business side thing seems like a pipe dream for the vast majority of in house attorneys.

[Anonymous User]

once my loans are taken care of I'd like to at least attempt to find a career in something I don't hate.

Except by that point you're so super-specialized that nobody would want to hire you except to push papers like you've been doing for the better part of a decade.

This is something that I never fully appreciated until after I tried to leave Biglaw. You spend years getting yourself in a position to work at a Super Prestigious Firm to get Awesome Exit Options, but by the time you're financially ready to leave you're only qualified for a narrow selection of jobs. That's something a lot of 0Ls and law students don't fully grasp--everyone thinks that if you work at some V10 you will be set for life.

I'm planning a complete career reboot. I'd rather be entry level in something else once my loans get to a reasonable level than stay in corporate law. Those "Awesome Exit Options" actually seem pretty terrible once you look into them. The same pointless paper pushing with maybe better hours. That whole jumping to the business side thing seems like a pipe dream for the vast majority of in house attorneys.

+1

I think being a financial analyst >> corporate lawyer, fwiw. Even being a numbers bitch (accounting, i-banking, etc.) is better than a corporate lawyer.