2014 Texas OCI (UT and other schools bidding on TX) Forum

[Anonymous User]

I really liked the people there. I had offers from other bigger first-half firms and I just liked the feel of PH more. I also asked them about their offer rate and they said they extend all summer offers with the expectation that you will receive a 2016 offer as well, so that was reassuring.

For me it was more important to find a place that I could work at for the long term as opposed to a big name for the short term. Hope that helps.

Thank you for the response. I like the people as well and am strongly considering them for the same reasons. However, the poster immediately above pointed out my main hesitation, no-offering 2 people the last two classes. I was told the same thing as you, that they expect to offer every summer. I was also told that when someone is no-offered, it is due to glaring workplace flaws or inappropriate social conduct. Good explanation, but it still seems off that it's an every year thing, so I'm not quite sure what to think there.

Have you tried asking about the most recent offer rate? NALP only shows 2013, so it might be worth looking into how the most recent class of SAs fared to see if they are telling the truth regarding their expectation to offer every summer.

[Anonymous User]

Have you tried asking about the most recent offer rate? NALP only shows 2013, so it might be worth looking into how the most recent class of SAs fared to see if they are telling the truth regarding their expectation to offer every summer.

No I haven't asked but I definitely should. Safe to say the recruiting coordinator will have this information?

[Anonymous User]

Anything from Locke Lord Dallas?

[Anonymous User]

Have you tried asking about the most recent offer rate? NALP only shows 2013, so it might be worth looking into how the most recent class of SAs fared to see if they are telling the truth regarding their expectation to offer every summer.

No I haven't asked but I definitely should. Safe to say the recruiting coordinator will have this information?

Absolutely. I would tell her how much you like the firm and that you are seriously considering the offer but have reservations regarding the offer rate (nice way of saying might be that you are curious as to what the offer policy is and what percentage of the class received offers last year). Then see if 2012 and 2013 really were anomalies, or if there is a trend of no-offering 2 people every year.

You're in the driver's seat now because you already have the offer, and this is really important information.

[Anonymous User]

Echoing the above about Porter Hedges. You should definitely ask them straight-up what the deal is with their bad offer rates for (at least) the last two years. Judging by the numbers, it's an unacceptable risk. But I've been told that they may be no-offering those who have told them that they'll be going somewhere else, as a way of protecting their yield %. Ask them if that's what they're doing.

IF they continue to insist that the no offers were due to work product or misconduct, that's just pure BS (or really awful screening). I would not play with those odds.

[Anonymous User]

Agree about asking straight up about the offer rate because if they are routinely no-offering 1/3 to 1/4 of their class, those aren't very good odds. Not sure what yield there is to protect in this situation because if they know somebody isn't going to take the offer, they might as well extend an offer so they can have a higher rate. Most people who look at NALP care about offer rates and not yield, since there can be other things that would explain yield (e.g., choosing to go to second half firm or 1L summer firm, deciding to clerk).

[Anonymous User]

Any news about Perkins Coie Dallas?

[Anonymous User]

Echoing the above about Porter Hedges. You should definitely ask them straight-up what the deal is with their bad offer rates for (at least) the last two years. Judging by the numbers, it's an unacceptable risk. But I've been told that they may be no-offering those who have told them that they'll be going somewhere else, as a way of protecting their yield %. Ask them if that's what they're doing.

IF they continue to insist that the no offers were due to work product or misconduct, that's just pure BS (or really awful screening). I would not play with those odds.

They told me this, too... something like they don't want to waste an offer on someone who won't take it. It doesn't make sense, especially for a first-half firm. It also implies that if everyone only wanted to work there, they'd still no-offer some because they only plan on giving out a set number of offers.

[Anonymous User]

I really liked the people there. I had offers from other bigger first-half firms and I just liked the feel of PH more. I also asked them about their offer rate and they said they extend all summer offers with the expectation that you will receive a 2016 offer as well, so that was reassuring.

For me it was more important to find a place that I could work at for the long term as opposed to a big name for the short term. Hope that helps.

Thank you for the response. I like the people as well and am strongly considering them for the same reasons. However, the poster immediately above pointed out my main hesitation, no-offering 2 people the last two classes. I was told the same thing as you, that they expect to offer every summer. I was also told that when someone is no-offered, it is due to glaring workplace flaws or inappropriate social conduct. Good explanation, but it still seems off that it's an every year thing, so I'm not quite sure what to think there.

It was something that concerned me as well, but I have a second half that I also really liked and I have confidence that PH will like my work product over the summer. I also had offers from NRF, HB, Strasburger, and BB. None of these firms have 100% offer rates either, just larger class sizes - for the most part. I think the only firm that historically has 100% offer rate in Houston is Latham, and I am not as interested in transactional. Overall, it is concerning that PH has no offered a few people, but I felt it would be fine there.

[Anonymous User]

It was something that concerned me as well, but I have a second half that I also really liked and I have confidence that PH will like my work product over the summer. I also had offers from NRF, HB, Strasburger, and BB. None of these firms have 100% offer rates either, just larger class sizes - for the most part. I think the only firm that historically has 100% offer rate in Houston is Latham, and I am not as interested in transactional. Overall, it is concerning that PH has no offered a few people, but I felt it would be fine there.

OP that you were responding to. Well first of all, congratulations. It sounds like you killed it during OCI and had some great options. I have many of the same thoughts on PH you do. However, it seems they really stressed during CBs their intention to (a) keep their summer class selective and small, and (b) do this so they have the ability to offer the entire class. They really played up how they went about it differently than the firms with larger classes so that they did not have to engage in the same practices. However, when you look at the numbers it appears they actually do.

For instance, look at BB Houston. They offered 25/27 in 2013 (93%). PH offered 6/8 (75%). That is, they both no-offered the same number of summers and PH doing it considering their pitch and class size is more concerning. Without this issue I would have probably accepted by now, and only have cold feet since it appears that they might not practice what they preach. If they don't practice what they preach in that context, it becomes more difficult to have 100% faith in what they say about the long-term prospects and partnership opportunities at the firm, which appears to be a selling point to both of us.

[Anonymous User]

question - i go to USC and thinking of massmailing Texas. However, at this point I need just an offer so even if I am successful, I'd have to get 2 offers in Texas right since summers are split? not that i dont mind working in texas (have some cousins there), but my ties are so thin i feel like id be a very easy no-offer on the chopping block. is it even worth it if i get my only offer in texas?

[BigZuck]

question - i go to USC and thinking of massmailing Texas. However, at this point I need just an offer so even if I am successful, I'd have to get 2 offers in Texas right since summers are split? not that i dont mind working in texas (have some cousins there), but my ties are so thin i feel like id be a very easy no-offer on the chopping block. is it even worth it if i get my only offer in texas?

I think lots of places will let you stay for at least 8 weeks

I wouldn't worry about it, I would just mass blast those applications out to every conceivable market you can think of. It's getting late in the game. Worry about the "problem" of "only" having one offer when and if it materializes.

[Anonymous User]

i think this is the only dumb question i have left - when firms have 2 locations in Texas (ie vinson & elkins), I should only apply to one right? not sure if it is like nor/so cal offices where they might as well be in a different state. for that, ive always mailed separately.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW PH offered 6/7 of the 2014 summers.

[Anonymous User]

6/7 for 2014 (85.7%)
6/8 for 2013 (75%)
4/6 for 2012 (66.7%)

Total of 16/21 for the past 3 years (76.2%)

Not sure if 1/4 of the class gets no-offered on average or if they only have 6 spots available each year. If it's the latter, I guess just hope that PH hires fewer people this year.

[BigZuck]

i think this is the only dumb question i have left - when firms have 2 locations in Texas (ie vinson & elkins), I should only apply to one right? not sure if it is like nor/so cal offices where they might as well be in a different state. for that, ive always mailed separately.

Given lack of ties, I would only apply to Houston offices when the firm has offices in multiple TX cities, unless the Dallas office is much larger than the Houston office, in which case I would play the numbers and apply to the Dallas office.

But, if any of these firms have sizeable NYC offices, I would apply to those.

[mandimeoutof10]

question - i go to USC and thinking of massmailing Texas. However, at this point I need just an offer so even if I am successful, I'd have to get 2 offers in Texas right since summers are split? not that i dont mind working in texas (have some cousins there), but my ties are so thin i feel like id be a very easy no-offer on the chopping block. is it even worth it if i get my only offer in texas?

I think lots of places will let you stay for at least 8 weeks

I wouldn't worry about it, I would just mass blast those applications out to every conceivable market you can think of. It's getting late in the game. Worry about the "problem" of "only" having one offer when and if it materializes.

This is exactly right. However, IMO the majority of the firms have largely filled their summer classes except for exceptional candidates. With your marginal ties, unless you are top 20ish % at USC, you're going to have a hell of a time finding a summer associate position at this stage in the game.

[Anonymous User]

Has anybody heard of people doing more than 14 weeks? I am considering two 6weeks and a 4 week... I will likely miss the first week and a half of class...

[Anonymous User]

Has anybody heard of people doing more than 14 weeks? I am considering two 6weeks and a 4 week... I will likely miss the first week and a half of class...

I've heard of someone doing 8 and 8. They said it was exhausting since they had no down time, but maybe worth it if you want the extra $.

[Anonymous User]

they don't rank us but im somewhere around there w/ LR. im counting more on LR to at least get a screener. basically in every market ive mailed with minimal ties, ive got 1 bite, but 1 bite is worth it for me.

[Anonymous User]

It was something that concerned me as well, but I have a second half that I also really liked and I have confidence that PH will like my work product over the summer. I also had offers from NRF, HB, Strasburger, and BB. None of these firms have 100% offer rates either, just larger class sizes - for the most part. I think the only firm that historically has 100% offer rate in Houston is Latham, and I am not as interested in transactional. Overall, it is concerning that PH has no offered a few people, but I felt it would be fine there.

OP that you were responding to. Well first of all, congratulations. It sounds like you killed it during OCI and had some great options. I have many of the same thoughts on PH you do. However, it seems they really stressed during CBs their intention to (a) keep their summer class selective and small, and (b) do this so they have the ability to offer the entire class. They really played up how they went about it differently than the firms with larger classes so that they did not have to engage in the same practices. However, when you look at the numbers it appears they actually do.

For instance, look at BB Houston. They offered 25/27 in 2013 (93%). PH offered 6/8 (75%). That is, they both no-offered the same number of summers and PH doing it considering their pitch and class size is more concerning. Without this issue I would have probably accepted by now, and only have cold feet since it appears that they might not practice what they preach. If they don't practice what they preach in that context, it becomes more difficult to have 100% faith in what they say about the long-term prospects and partnership opportunities at the firm, which appears to be a selling point to both of us.

I totally agree with you. I may ask them why the one person was not offered last year. It is a tough decision though and at the end I had to just go with what I felt was the best fit for me to see if it works. My second half is basically a done deal though so I guess I was able to accept a bit more risk with PH for the first half.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed on the analysis re LW v. VE v. KE. But I would strongly caution against BB - the Houston office isn't nearly the Corporate player it once was. I would rank (mostly focusing on work quality) the Houston Corp groups as follows:

LW/VE

BG/AK

Sidley/KE/BB/STB

Akin/Paul Hastings

NRF/Locke Lord/Jones Day/Mayer Brown

HayBoo/Porter Hedges/Winston & Strawn/TK/Baker & McKenzie

Gardere/Jackson Walker/Winstead/Strasburger

Where do Skadden, BH, and K&S fit into this ranking?

[Anonymous User]

It was something that concerned me as well, but I have a second half that I also really liked and I have confidence that PH will like my work product over the summer. I also had offers from NRF, HB, Strasburger, and BB. None of these firms have 100% offer rates either, just larger class sizes - for the most part. I think the only firm that historically has 100% offer rate in Houston is Latham, and I am not as interested in transactional. Overall, it is concerning that PH has no offered a few people, but I felt it would be fine there.

OP that you were responding to. Well first of all, congratulations. It sounds like you killed it during OCI and had some great options. I have many of the same thoughts on PH you do. However, it seems they really stressed during CBs their intention to (a) keep their summer class selective and small, and (b) do this so they have the ability to offer the entire class. They really played up how they went about it differently than the firms with larger classes so that they did not have to engage in the same practices. However, when you look at the numbers it appears they actually do.

For instance, look at BB Houston. They offered 25/27 in 2013 (93%). PH offered 6/8 (75%). That is, they both no-offered the same number of summers and PH doing it considering their pitch and class size is more concerning. Without this issue I would have probably accepted by now, and only have cold feet since it appears that they might not practice what they preach. If they don't practice what they preach in that context, it becomes more difficult to have 100% faith in what they say about the long-term prospects and partnership opportunities at the firm, which appears to be a selling point to both of us.

I totally agree with you. I may ask them why the one person was not offered last year. It is a tough decision though and at the end I had to just go with what I felt was the best fit for me to see if it works. My second half is basically a done deal though so I guess I was able to accept a bit more risk with PH for the first half.

Do you know how many of those 6 have accepted their offers? If not all 6 accepted, I might feel a little bit safer about taking them since there should be more entry-level spots open.

Also heard that some of the past no-offers have gone to South Texas people who dropped below the grade cutoff, but that might just be a rumor. Makes sense that the cutoff for UT and even UH would be much lower. Then there was the thing posted earlier ITT about people who split with PH and AK or BG not getting offers sometimes, so I would try to get across how much you like them and that you would seriously consider going there if offered.

Honestly, I think you made a great choice. PH is a good firm that does solid work. Most people say that BB is a miserable place to work, and NRF/HB/Strasburger aren't noticeably better (unless you want lit, in which case Fulbright is very good).

[Anonymous User]

Do you know how many of those 6 have accepted their offers? If not all 6 accepted, I might feel a little bit safer about taking them since there should be more entry-level spots open.

Also heard that some of the past no-offers have gone to South Texas people who dropped below the grade cutoff, but that might just be a rumor. Makes sense that the cutoff for UT and even UH would be much lower. Then there was the thing posted earlier ITT about people who split with PH and AK or BG not getting offers sometimes, so I would try to get across how much you like them and that you would seriously consider going there if offered.

Honestly, I think you made a great choice. PH is a good firm that does solid work. Most people say that BB is a miserable place to work, and NRF/HB/Strasburger aren't noticeably better (unless you want lit, in which case Fulbright is very good).

I spoke with a partner recently and at that point 4/6 had accepted their offers. The deadline is October 1st, so it's probably a pretty accurate reflection of what the end number will be.

Also, Strasburger and PH are two of the firms I am still deciding between for my first half. If someone doesn't mind giving their input, is there a clear choice between the two? Honestly I'm having a hard time distinguishing them beyond some minor structural/pay differences.

EDIT: I'm not the anon that had offers from HB/BB/NRF. Sorry for the confusion.

[Anonymous User]

Do you know how many of those 6 have accepted their offers? If not all 6 accepted, I might feel a little bit safer about taking them since there should be more entry-level spots open.

Also heard that some of the past no-offers have gone to South Texas people who dropped below the grade cutoff, but that might just be a rumor. Makes sense that the cutoff for UT and even UH would be much lower. Then there was the thing posted earlier ITT about people who split with PH and AK or BG not getting offers sometimes, so I would try to get across how much you like them and that you would seriously consider going there if offered.

Honestly, I think you made a great choice. PH is a good firm that does solid work. Most people say that BB is a miserable place to work, and NRF/HB/Strasburger aren't noticeably better (unless you want lit, in which case Fulbright is very good).

I spoke with a partner recently and at that point 4/6 had accepted their offers. The deadline is October 1st, so it's probably a pretty accurate reflection of what the end number will be.

Also, Strasburger and PH are two of the firms I am still deciding between for my first half. If someone doesn't mind giving their input, is there a clear choice between the two? Honestly I'm having a hard time distinguishing them beyond some minor structural/pay differences.

You turned down BB Houston to go with PH or Strasburger?

Thought process there? What are you trying to accomplish?

To answer your question, I occassionally find myself opposite PH. I really like one partner there that I've dealt with. Associates are more hit and miss, IME. I have not dealt with them enough to figure out the staffing structure. Partners seem to be more hands on than I'm used to at other firms (and certainly at my firm). This is a positive or negative depending on your personality.

Never deal with Starsburger, so can't comment there.