Fall bonuses Forum

[nativtracker]

This thread is losing its vitality. I think the more relevant discussion is when are salaries going to 200k? Lets skip these one-off bonus that come every now and then and get a baseline increase.

[nealric]

This thread is losing its vitality. I think the more relevant discussion is when are salaries going to 200k? Lets skip these one-off bonus that come every now and then and get a baseline increase.

Well, it's not happening in 2020. I'm going to predict 2023, at which time it should be worth about $187k in 2020 dollars. Keep in mind that salaries were $203k in 2020 dollars back in 2007 when firms went to $160k. Real biglaw salaries were actually higher 20 years ago- first year salary + bonus was around $240k in today's dollars back in the year 2000.

[cornerstone]

This thread is losing its vitality. I think the more relevant discussion is when are salaries going to 200k? Lets skip these one-off bonus that come every now and then and get a baseline increase.

Well, it's not happening in 2020. I'm going to predict 2023, at which time it should be worth about $187k in 2020 dollars. Keep in mind that salaries were $203k in 2020 dollars back in 2007 when firms went to $160k. Real biglaw salaries were actually higher 20 years ago- first year salary + bonus was around $240k in today's dollars back in the year 2000.

https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/

Is this right? Were pre-recession bonuses (even for first years) really that high?

[nealric]

This thread is losing its vitality. I think the more relevant discussion is when are salaries going to 200k? Lets skip these one-off bonus that come every now and then and get a baseline increase.

Well, it's not happening in 2020. I'm going to predict 2023, at which time it should be worth about $187k in 2020 dollars. Keep in mind that salaries were $203k in 2020 dollars back in 2007 when firms went to $160k. Real biglaw salaries were actually higher 20 years ago- first year salary + bonus was around $240k in today's dollars back in the year 2000.

https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/

Is this right? Were pre-recession bonuses (even for first years) really that high?

To be fair, there was a lot more year-to-year variation on bonus. But even base salaries were higher then in real terms.

I think the basic explanation is twofold:

1) It used to be a lot easier to get lots of billed (and collected) hours for first years. Clients had not started pushing back on their use as much, and massive diligence/discovery projects were tolerated to a much larger degree.

2) 20 years ago, there was less of a "winner take all" mentality in law firms. Lockstep was still the norm for partners and most expected to stay at the same firm for their entire careers. There were fewer diva rainmakers commanding pay packages 10x of a rank and file partner. This lockstep mentality probably translated into a bit more generosity for associates.

Finally, I'd also note that there were fewer "market" firms 20 years ago. Those salary scales mostly applied to the traditional "white shoe" type firms, and not the V50-100 type firms.

[plantcoveredbuilding]

That site is interesting. Law school tuition for a private was only $22,000 in 2000 ( https://data.lawschooltransparency.com/costs/tuition/ ), and that site says biglaw first year salaries were $125,000 (+ $35,000 bonus) in 2000. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/

So your first year salary was 5.7 times a year of law school tuition in 2000?

Now it's $50,000 vs $190,000. So now first year salaries are 3.8x a year of law school tuition.

Slow down law schools! I googled to find CSM's PPP in 2000 but gave up.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

That site is interesting. Law school tuition for a private was only $22,000 in 2000 ( https://data.lawschooltransparency.com/costs/tuition/ ), and that site says biglaw first year salaries were $125,000 (+ $35,000 bonus) in 2000. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/

So your first year salary was 5.7 times a year of law school tuition in 2000?

Now it's $50,000 vs $190,000. So now first year salaries are 3.8x a year of law school tuition.

Slow down law schools! I googled to find CSM's PPP in 2000 but gave up.

I put this together years ago:

I'm not completely the right person to start this thread, but it's getting late in the game if there will be any time for boundless speculation by people who don't actually have any more information than the rest of us.

Thing To Remember #1: Cravath will not pay a single dime more than they feel they absolutely have to.
Thing To Remember #2: Beachfront atrium renovations in Palm Beach don't pay for themselves.
Thing To Remember #3: No matter what the bonuses are, associates will complain. And within a week, they'll be back to licking the bottom of partners' shoes. And if they don't, there are hundreds of Fordham 164's who will be glad to.
Thing To Remember #4: The chart below.


Cravath-scale bonuses, first-year (pro-rated):

2000: $40k
2001: $20k
2002: $17.5k
2003: $17.5k
2004: $30k
2005: $30k
2006: $35k
2007: $45k
2008: $17.5k
2009: $7.5k
2010: $7.5k
2011: $10k (including spring)
2012: $10k
2013: $10k

Total first-year comp (real value, 2013 dollars):

2000: $165k ($224k)
2001: $145k ($191k)
2002: $142.5k ($185k)
2003: $142.5k ($181k)
2004: $155k ($191k)
2005: $155k ($185k)
2006: $180k ($209k)
2007: $205k ($231k)
2008: $177.5k ($193k)
2009: $167.5k ($182k)
2010: $167.5k ($179k)
2011: $170k ($176.5k)
2012: $170k ($173k)
2013: $170k ($170k)

Cravath PPP (real value, 2013 dollars):

2000: $2.25M ($3.05M)
2001: $2.13M ($2.81M)
2002: $1.96M ($2.54M)
2003: $2.08M ($2.64M)
2004: $2.21M ($2.73M)
2005: $2.60M ($3.11M)
2006: $3.02M ($3.50M)
2007: $3.30M ($3.72M)
2008: $2.52M ($2.73M)
2009: $2.72M ($2.96M)
2010: $3.17M ($3.40M)
2011: $3.10M ($3.22M)
2012: $3.43M ($3.49M)
2013: $3.29M ($3.29M)

Law school tution, Penn (real value, 2013 dollars):

2000: $27k ($37k)
2001: $28k ($37k)
2002: $29k ($38k)
2003: $31k ($39k)
2004: $33k ($41k)
2005: $35k ($42k)
2006: $37k ($43k)
2007: $39k ($44k)
2008: $42k ($46k)
2009: $44k ($48k)
2010: $45k ($48k)
2011: $48k ($50k)
2012: $50k ($51k)
2013: $52k ($52k)
2014: $53k ($52k)

[plantcoveredbuilding]

That's very helpful. Since CSM's PPP was $4.4m in 2020, they appear to be keeping up with inflation between 2000 and 2020. Law schools, partners, all doing ok, but not associates. Maybe if associates weren't so selfish and would think of others, like Brad Karp does, karma would reward them with more money.

[Anonymous User]

Skadden just announced they will reflect special bonuses in year end bonuses, and gave some excuse about making sure everyone has time to hit their hours.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

[Anonymous User]

Skadden just announced they will reflect special bonuses in year end bonuses, and gave some excuse about making sure everyone has time to hit their hours.

Which means many first years are SOL because hours for first years are very low based on conversations I've had. Going to be a lot of us missing out on anything

[Anonymous User]

Skadden's managing partner announced that year end bonuses will take into account fall bonuses given by peer firms. The justification he gave is that since we have an hours requirement, the partners hope the additional time will let counsel and associates whose hours were impacted by COVID early in the pandemic catch up. As a corporate associate that saw work dry up in the spring but has had a busy Q3 (and likely a busy Q4), I'm okay with that rationale (assuming the firm follows through).

[Anonymous User]

Skadden just announced they will reflect special bonuses in year end bonuses, and gave some excuse about making sure everyone has time to hit their hours.

Which means many first years are SOL because hours for first years are very low based on conversations I've had. Going to be a lot of us missing out on anything

honestly if you don't hit your hours with unlimited pro bono, that's on you

[Anonymous User]

Skadden just announced they will reflect special bonuses in year end bonuses, and gave some excuse about making sure everyone has time to hit their hours.

Which means many first years are SOL because hours for first years are very low based on conversations I've had. Going to be a lot of us missing out on anything

While I'd prefer to call JG Wentworth and get my money now, I'm fine if they wait a couple months to true us up in December. When Skadden announced their 2018 summer bonuses, some folks got screwed over because e.g. they went on a long vacation in February and so weren't annualizing at 1800 as of June 1, so I'm glad firm leadership is at least learning that lesson even if we don't get the two months' time value of money.

Note that Skadden has traditionally paid out half-bonuses to those annualizing at below 1800 hours, so unless that changes no one should be left completely empty handed. If you're a junior associate at Skadden and not currently annualizing at 1800 hours, my advice would be to try and get involved in a lot of pro bono projects. Skadden counts unlimited pro bono hours and there's a lot of unmet need right now. And while it's not as helpful this time of year, remember recruiting, diversity, knowledge management, training etc. hours also count towards your annualization if you're counting your hours. If you're annualizing way below 1800, that sucks and I'm sorry but at least know that none of the partners or senior associates will blame you for that -- there has just been increasing pressure every year from clients to not bill juniors so it's definitely not uncommon to be slow in your first year or two.

[Anonymous User]

Skadden just announced they will reflect special bonuses in year end bonuses, and gave some excuse about making sure everyone has time to hit their hours.

Transcript:

“I am sure you have all been following the fall special bonus announcements made by some of our peer firms. They have taken a variety of different approaches. The Firm is grateful for the dedication and hard work that you've demonstrated during these unprecedented times, and we intend to recognize your efforts in our upcoming year-end bonuses.  

Our 2020 bonuses will take into account the special bonuses given by other firms in order to keep pace with top tier compensation.   By providing a longer determination window, we hope those whose hours have been more impacted by COVID will have additional time to qualify for bonuses.”

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the sleuths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the stealths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

Edit: Spelling

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the stealths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

Right there with you, brother. Signed, Goodwin midlevel that's ready to burn down the Boston office

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the stealths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

Right there with you, brother. Signed, Goodwin midlevel that's ready to burn down the Boston office

Goodwin midlevel that's shocked that they committed to including COVID bonuses in the EOY bonuses.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the stealths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

Right there with you, brother. Signed, Goodwin midlevel that's ready to burn down the Boston office

Goodwin midlevel that's shocked that they committed to including COVID bonuses in the EOY bonuses.

Better than nothing. Boies Schiller just said they are not paying fall bonuses and did not even say the year-end bonus will take a fall bonus by some firms into account. They just said the regular bonus will be unaffected by what some firms are doing in the fall.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the stealths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

Right there with you, brother. Signed, Goodwin midlevel that's ready to burn down the Boston office

Goodwin midlevel that's shocked that they committed to including COVID bonuses in the EOY bonuses.

Better than nothing. Boies Schiller just said they are not paying fall bonuses and did not even say the year-end bonus will take a fall bonus by some firms into account. They just said the regular bonus will be unaffected by what some firms are doing in the fall.

This assumes we trust that Goodwin really will include the COVID bonuses in the EOY and they don't cut any corners in this allegedly aggregated amount. Predictions, fellow associate/midlevels?

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the stealths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

Right there with you, brother. Signed, Goodwin midlevel that's ready to burn down the Boston office

Goodwin midlevel that's shocked that they committed to including COVID bonuses in the EOY bonuses.

Better than nothing. Boies Schiller just said they are not paying fall bonuses and did not even say the year-end bonus will take a fall bonus by some firms into account. They just said the regular bonus will be unaffected by what some firms are doing in the fall.

This assumes we trust that Goodwin really will include the COVID bonuses in the EOY and they don't cut any corners in this allegedly aggregated amount. Predictions, fellow associate/midlevels?

Goodwin senior associate here. My guess is that if you normally get 1x bonus, you will get the full fall bonus. I think there may be some cutting of corners if you get a 1.1-1.3x bump for distinctive/number of hours.

[Anonymous User]

Skadden just announced they will reflect special bonuses in year end bonuses, and gave some excuse about making sure everyone has time to hit their hours.

Transcript:

“I am sure you have all been following the fall special bonus announcements made by some of our peer firms. They have taken a variety of different approaches. The Firm is grateful for the dedication and hard work that you've demonstrated during these unprecedented times, and we intend to recognize your efforts in our upcoming year-end bonuses.  

Our 2020 bonuses will take into account the special bonuses given by other firms in order to keep pace with top tier compensation.   By providing a longer determination window, we hope those whose hours have been more impacted by COVID will have additional time to qualify for bonuses.”

How can they say this with a straight face? I recall at least one firm with an hours requirement for a recent special mid-year bonus did it this way: If you’re on track with your annualized hours as of now, you get the bonus; if you didn’t get the bonus but it turns you hit hours by year-end, the mid-year one is added on top of the year-end for you.

Skadden could simply do the same if its concern was really about screwing over associates who are a little underneath the hours target. It’s insulting to use that obvious lie as a pretext.

[Anonymous User]

it will be interesting if the result of this is that the year-end bonus scale is permanently increased

[Anonymous User]

Skadden just announced they will reflect special bonuses in year end bonuses, and gave some excuse about making sure everyone has time to hit their hours.

Transcript:

“I am sure you have all been following the fall special bonus announcements made by some of our peer firms. They have taken a variety of different approaches. The Firm is grateful for the dedication and hard work that you've demonstrated during these unprecedented times, and we intend to recognize your efforts in our upcoming year-end bonuses.  

Our 2020 bonuses will take into account the special bonuses given by other firms in order to keep pace with top tier compensation.   By providing a longer determination window, we hope those whose hours have been more impacted by COVID will have additional time to qualify for bonuses.”

How can they say this with a straight face? I recall at least one firm with an hours requirement for a recent special mid-year bonus did it this way: If you’re on track with your annualized hours as of now, you get the bonus; if you didn’t get the bonus but it turns you hit hours by year-end, the mid-year one is added on top of the year-end for you.

Skadden could simply do the same if its concern was really about screwing over associates who are a little underneath the hours target. It’s insulting to use that obvious lie as a pretext.

^This. Mind you, I do know several people at Skadden who got no-bonused during the 2018 special bonuses, each of whom ended the year clearing 2000 hours but were never trued up.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin just announced the same...the COVID bonuses will be reflected in EOY bonuses, which are paid at the end of January.

Well, not surprised after the stealths. Signed, associate whose hope has been killed.

Right there with you, brother. Signed, Goodwin midlevel that's ready to burn down the Boston office

Goodwin midlevel that's shocked that they committed to including COVID bonuses in the EOY bonuses.

Cosigned by a Goodwin midlevel that won't be sticking around until January to find out if they really do.