V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions... Forum

[Anonymous User]

I think the above posters are asking.

if its top third at CCN, is there a noticeable difference in class percentile that you have to be at, if you are in Penn and Michigan since they are very almost near touching distance with NYU.

I honestly don't know specifics. But I'd bet the cut for NYU is closer to Columbia than to Penn

Just an FYI anecdotal comment, but I've had some candid discussions with hiring folks from a few firms to ask about GPA cutoffs, the schools they visit, etc. The people I spoke with were all NYC-based, and almost all said that they view CLS and NYU as essentially interchangeable with regard to GPA cutoffs and how far into the class they will go. They noted that both tend to attract the same caliber of student, so it wouldn't make sense to be more selective at one than the other.

As for other T10 schools, some said that they are receptive to any T10 school, and, short of HYS, view the rest as relatively similar (i.e. that CLS and NYU wouldn't be placed at an inherently higher cutoff than schools like Penn). Though quite a few said that they place CLS and NYU on a level above the rest of the T10 (remember that these were all NYC based folks I was speaking with, so this isn't surprising).

[Anonymous User]

How does your firm decide where to place 1st years? Along those lines, what would you recommend to someone who picks a firm for one specific practice area in terms of maximizing their chances to end up there?

Also, on a separate note, what's the travel like for Biglaw generally? Are there particular practice groups/firms in which travel is more common? I'd actually like to travel for a bit while I'm young, and while business travel certainly isn't the same, I feel like it would still be a nice change of pace to spending every day in the office.

Thanks!

[rosemerry]

I don't want to troll for penn because I don't have any skin in the game. but if one counts NYU and CLS as "interchangeable" in student quality, then shouldn't one also count NYU and Penn as "interchangeable"?

[Anonymous User]

Columbia 170/175
NYU 170/174
Penn 166/171

One of the three student bodies isn't quite as "interchangeable" as the others IMO. Perhaps this is why the cut offs are more in a CCN band as opposed to a CCNP one? I really don't know though and have no skin in the game as well.

[Detrox]

I don't want to troll for penn because I don't have any skin in the game. but if one counts NYU and CLS as "interchangeable" in student quality, then shouldn't one also count NYU and Penn as "interchangeable"?

Under this theory and the transitive property, Penn and CLS should be interchangeable, but you seem reluctant to go that far. Add in the fact that with such reasoning any schools below Penn which feel themselves to be interchangeable with Penn will make the same arguments if cutoffs were to be changed and you have a breakdown of any form of ranking and cutoff system (good or bad). Regardless of the accuracy of such classifications, the tier of CCN seems to be distinct from those below (and above, obviously) at least in some employers eyes.

[NJPitcher]

Because you have 3 people yelling at you during the day (the client, your boss, and opposing counsel) instead of just 1 person (boss) like most other professions.

...unless you work in any other client-based profession. You'd be surprised how many professions/jobs feature acquiring/maintaining clients.

[CreativityKing]

How does your firm decide where to place 1st years? Along those lines, what would you recommend to someone who picks a firm for one specific practice area in terms of maximizing their chances to end up there?

Also, on a separate note, what's the travel like for Biglaw generally? Are there particular practice groups/firms in which travel is more common? I'd actually like to travel for a bit while I'm young, and while business travel certainly isn't the same, I feel like it would still be a nice change of pace to spending every day in the office.

Thanks!

I am also interested in this.

[itbdvorm]

How does your firm decide where to place 1st years? Along those lines, what would you recommend to someone who picks a firm for one specific practice area in terms of maximizing their chances to end up there?

Also, on a separate note, what's the travel like for Biglaw generally? Are there particular practice groups/firms in which travel is more common? I'd actually like to travel for a bit while I'm young, and while business travel certainly isn't the same, I feel like it would still be a nice change of pace to spending every day in the office.

Thanks!

I am also interested in this.

If you want to be in a specific practice area, go like nuts to be in it when you're a summer. Bond with the associates (and the partners, but associates probably more important).

Travel's not what it used to be. You'd be surprised how rarely people travel anymore.

[Anonymous User]

How does your firm decide where to place 1st years? Along those lines, what would you recommend to someone who picks a firm for one specific practice area in terms of maximizing their chances to end up there?

Also, on a separate note, what's the travel like for Biglaw generally? Are there particular practice groups/firms in which travel is more common? I'd actually like to travel for a bit while I'm young, and while business travel certainly isn't the same, I feel like it would still be a nice change of pace to spending every day in the office.

Thanks!

I am also interested in this.

If you want to be in a specific practice area, go like nuts to be in it when you're a summer. Bond with the associates (and the partners, but associates probably more important).

Travel's not what it used to be. You'd be surprised how rarely people travel anymore.

Why do you say that the associates are probably more important? Do they typically choose the 1st years' departments?

[Anonymous User]

2nd year associate from a few pages ago here. Thank you for the reply.

How much of an indication of "getting it" or staying power of the associate will be reflected in a yearly evaluation? In other words, if I got a solid yearly evaluation after my first year, is this a good indication? Obviously, I realize after one year I am not set for partnership at this point or anything, but I am curious anecdotally whether yearly evaluations tend to be indicative of one's skill set. I can see this cutting both ways..on the one hand, a firm might want to have good documentation of an employee's lack of skills in place to combat a wrongful termination suit... on the other hand, a firm may want to dangle the prospect of a future with the firm to squeeze as much out of the associate as possible.

[Anonymous User]

During your time at the firm, what kinds of things have you seen associates move on to do once it's evident they won't be making partner? Have you noticed any patterns between corporate/litigation associates and what they leave to do? Thanks.

[roranoa]

Do you care for the applicants' age?

Say,around 30-33?

[Anonymous User]

How does your firm view people who have previously worked at the firm as a paralegal?

[Anonymous User]

A "fill in the blank" for OP:

I can usually tell which of the summers/new associates is going to be most successful, and fit in the best with our firm, since they tend to be the one's who (blank).

[Anonymous User]

I realize you are at a firm, but I'm sure many of your colleagues have gone in-house. Can you speak to their experiences?

In particular, my biggest concerns are the pay cut, whether it will provide room for career growth and whether it will be interesting. I'm a deal lawyer who enjoys deals, but a couple years down the line when I have a family I'm not sure whether I'll be able to continue to juggle the long hours of firm life and want to start doing my research early. I'm sure it varies position to position, but if you could talk about the types of positions friends have taken and their experiences it would be very helpful, so when I am in a position to make the decision, I can assess good in-house jobs from bad ones. Ideally, all I want to do is take home $200K (I realize this won't be starting salary...but have the room to grow to this), do deals and not work 60-70 hour weeks. I feel like my hopes of this future are unrealistic though. Any insight is much appreciated - great thread.

[Anonymous User]

May be too many varying factors here but humor me...Hypothetical:

Student A: Evening student at regional T1, top 10%, LR
Student B: Full time student at regional T1, top 25%, secondary journal
Student C: Full time student at regional T3, top 10%, LR

Do you see a difference in terms of credentials? How do they compete with eachother?
Is it difficult for evening students to get interviews or callbacks or does it just depend on the individual?
What can evening students do to improve their hireability?

[Anonymous User]

Why would you invite someone to visit over the summer? If you have to re-do everything over OCI, what's the rational of seeing them pre-OCI, in the summer?

[itbdvorm]

How does your firm decide where to place 1st years? Along those lines, what would you recommend to someone who picks a firm for one specific practice area in terms of maximizing their chances to end up there?

Also, on a separate note, what's the travel like for Biglaw generally? Are there particular practice groups/firms in which travel is more common? I'd actually like to travel for a bit while I'm young, and while business travel certainly isn't the same, I feel like it would still be a nice change of pace to spending every day in the office.

Thanks!

I am also interested in this.

If you want to be in a specific practice area, go like nuts to be in it when you're a summer. Bond with the associates (and the partners, but associates probably more important).

Travel's not what it used to be. You'd be surprised how rarely people travel anymore.

Why do you say that the associates are probably more important? Do they typically choose the 1st years' departments?

aaand i'm back

the associates are probably more important because they're often in a better position to determine actual staffing on assignments. the first-third years will be third-fifth years when you return - the core mid-levels making up the meat of deals. you need these folks to be your friends first (the partners won't figure out who you are immediately). they're also the ones who can put in good words for you (real ones) with partners/staffers as they help figure out department/practice group assignments

[itbdvorm]

2nd year associate from a few pages ago here. Thank you for the reply.

How much of an indication of "getting it" or staying power of the associate will be reflected in a yearly evaluation? In other words, if I got a solid yearly evaluation after my first year, is this a good indication? Obviously, I realize after one year I am not set for partnership at this point or anything, but I am curious anecdotally whether yearly evaluations tend to be indicative of one's skill set. I can see this cutting both ways..on the one hand, a firm might want to have good documentation of an employee's lack of skills in place to combat a wrongful termination suit... on the other hand, a firm may want to dangle the prospect of a future with the firm to squeeze as much out of the associate as possible.

after your first year it's unlikely your evaluation will reflect that much, both because of observational abilities of the folks above you and actual opportunities you've had. but it's obviously always better to be getting a good review than a bad one. truly superlative reviews are rare, but meaningful.

i doubt the "wrongful termination" thing will really be in their minds at the junior ranks (unless you truly stink). plenty of opportunities to weed people out over the years.

[itbdvorm]

During your time at the firm, what kinds of things have you seen associates move on to do once it's evident they won't be making partner? Have you noticed any patterns between corporate/litigation associates and what they leave to do? Thanks.

corporate associates generally have better exit opportunities (sorry). litigation folks are usually AUSA/DA/gov't/non-profit/"other", with in-house opportunities being fairly rare. corporate folks can be in-house/business-side/etc. much more often

[itbdvorm]

Do you care for the applicants' age?

Say,around 30-33?

not unless it effects their willingness to work, creates awkwardness with a younger supervisor, includes a "well, when i used to do x, this is how we did things" attitude, etc. though that is on the higher side for first years

[itbdvorm]

A "fill in the blank" for OP:

I can usually tell which of the summers/new associates is going to be most successful, and fit in the best with our firm, since they tend to be the one's who (blank).

are the leaders of their class - not in a "i want to be the leader, so i'm loud and doing things", more in a "i'm a little quieter but really smart and charismatic and people flock to me, and also i write really well and do all my work quickly, efficiently and thoughtfully" way. tough to put your finger on but you know it when you see it.

[itbdvorm]

I realize you are at a firm, but I'm sure many of your colleagues have gone in-house. Can you speak to their experiences?

In particular, my biggest concerns are the pay cut, whether it will provide room for career growth and whether it will be interesting. I'm a deal lawyer who enjoys deals, but a couple years down the line when I have a family I'm not sure whether I'll be able to continue to juggle the long hours of firm life and want to start doing my research early. I'm sure it varies position to position, but if you could talk about the types of positions friends have taken and their experiences it would be very helpful, so when I am in a position to make the decision, I can assess good in-house jobs from bad ones. Ideally, all I want to do is take home $200K (I realize this won't be starting salary...but have the room to grow to this), do deals and not work 60-70 hour weeks. I feel like my hopes of this future are unrealistic though. Any insight is much appreciated - great thread.

it really, truly, completely depends job to job. you need to have frank conversations about the company, growth potential, etc. part of the issue is what level you go in at, how big the company is, who is above/below you, how big the legal dept is, what kind of relationships they have with other functional groups. what you're suggesting is pretty reasonable in theory. but "doing deals" and not working long weeks from time to time i think is fundamentally in contradiction. if you're on a big deal, you're going to pull some long hours. just the way it is.

[itbdvorm]

May be too many varying factors here but humor me...Hypothetical:

Student A: Evening student at regional T1, top 10%, LR
Student B: Full time student at regional T1, top 25%, secondary journal
Student C: Full time student at regional T3, top 10%, LR

Do you see a difference in terms of credentials? How do they compete with eachother?
Is it difficult for evening students to get interviews or callbacks or does it just depend on the individual?
What can evening students do to improve their hireability?

this is a tough question for me because frankly none of the three is necessarily in a great shot to get hired by us...the first two probably have much better shots than the third, i don't think we dip much below the top 5 or so in the class at T3s.

[itbdvorm]

Why would you invite someone to visit over the summer? If you have to re-do everything over OCI, what's the rational of seeing them pre-OCI, in the summer?

To check if they know the difference between rational and rationale? (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Frankly - they probably really like something about you (school, resume, grades, etc.) and want to shortcut the OCI process. if a firm you're interested in invites you to visit over the summer you should say yes as fast as you can.