Fall bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

[plantcoveredbuilding]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

This "optics" things is an interesting take. You realize average profits-per-partner is public information right?

I have a question for you as an insider. Now that you've admitted that Brad Karp is not a straight shooter, that he is a contrived and misleading person, that he is a person who will shove fall bonuses into year end, as opposed to paying it now, solely to try and deceive clients about all the millions he made off of their covid troubles, because they're apparently morons and would fall for such a ruse . . . Do you think he would go so far as to fudge the profit per partner information to make it seem like they made less than they did? That's the natural extension of what you just wrote, no?

None of this "optics" stuff makes any sense. If biglaw firms cared about optics there are much more rational solutions than "hide the fall bonuses in winter bonuses to trick clients into thinking we're struggling like they are." There are better explanations, including "we're worried about another economic collapse between now and February and want to effectively buy a put option on that by not paying you bonuses until then."

Give up it up on "optics." Everyone, clients included, knows biglaw partners are greedy assholes. People aren't stupid.

[cisscum]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

Lol people like you who drink corporate PR kool aid are the worst.

[Winter is Coming]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

This "optics" things is an interesting take. You realize average profits-per-partner is public information right?

I have a question for you as an insider. Now that you've admitted that Brad Karp is not a straight shooter, that he is a contrived and misleading person, that he is a person who will shove fall bonuses into year end, as opposed to paying it now, solely to try and deceive clients about all the millions he made off of their covid troubles, because they're apparently morons and would fall for such a ruse . . . Do you think he would go so far as to fudge the profit per partner information to make it seem like they made less than they did? That's the natural extension of what you just wrote, no?

None of this "optics" stuff makes any sense. If biglaw firms cared about optics there are much more rational solutions than "hide the fall bonuses in winter bonuses to trick clients into thinking we're struggling like they are." There are better explanations, including "we're worried about another economic collapse between now and February and want to effectively buy a put option on that by not paying you bonuses until then."

Give up it up on "optics." Everyone, clients included, knows biglaw partners are greedy assholes. People aren't stupid.

There are also several in house people in this thread making exactly this point, but delusional people still come to defend their firms. Although the PW post seems more like they are proud of how their firm leadership will ultimately be able to fool their clients regarding how great of a year it has been for them.

[Anonymous User]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

This "optics" things is an interesting take. You realize average profits-per-partner is public information right?

I have a question for you as an insider. Now that you've admitted that Brad Karp is not a straight shooter, that he is a contrived and misleading person, that he is a person who will shove fall bonuses into year end, as opposed to paying it now, solely to try and deceive clients about all the millions he made off of their covid troubles, because they're apparently morons and would fall for such a ruse . . . Do you think he would go so far as to fudge the profit per partner information to make it seem like they made less than they did? That's the natural extension of what you just wrote, no?

None of this "optics" stuff makes any sense. If biglaw firms cared about optics there are much more rational solutions than "hide the fall bonuses in winter bonuses to trick clients into thinking we're struggling like they are." There are better explanations, including "we're worried about another economic collapse between now and February and want to effectively buy a put option on that by not paying you bonuses until then."

Give up it up on "optics." Everyone, clients included, knows biglaw partners are greedy assholes. People aren't stupid.

PW midlevel from above here.

You realize the contradiction you are giving, right? If there is an “economic collapse” such that they would not pay bonuses, then they’re not making nearly as much off the “covid troubles” as you assume.

Again, PW partners have not received draws since the pandemic afaik. What that means (if you’re familiar with how partner comp works), is that some junior partners have been paid LESSS THAN seniors since the pandemic. They will eventually get theirs (usually in January even in a typical year), and we will get ours too.

[Anonymous User]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

This "optics" things is an interesting take. You realize average profits-per-partner is public information right?

I have a question for you as an insider. Now that you've admitted that Brad Karp is not a straight shooter, that he is a contrived and misleading person, that he is a person who will shove fall bonuses into year end, as opposed to paying it now, solely to try and deceive clients about all the millions he made off of their covid troubles, because they're apparently morons and would fall for such a ruse . . . Do you think he would go so far as to fudge the profit per partner information to make it seem like they made less than they did? That's the natural extension of what you just wrote, no?

None of this "optics" stuff makes any sense. If biglaw firms cared about optics there are much more rational solutions than "hide the fall bonuses in winter bonuses to trick clients into thinking we're struggling like they are." There are better explanations, including "we're worried about another economic collapse between now and February and want to effectively buy a put option on that by not paying you bonuses until then."

Give up it up on "optics." Everyone, clients included, knows biglaw partners are greedy assholes. People aren't stupid.

There are also several in house people in this thread making exactly this point, but delusional people still come to defend their firms. Although the PW post seems more like they are proud of how their firm leadership will ultimately be able to fool their clients regarding how great of a year it has been for them.

Same PW mid-level again.

Yes, I'm sure the anecdotal thoughts of a few in house posters on TLS stands for the entire industry.

Again--I didn't say Brad Karp was right in his thoughts, just that I believe they are legitimately his thoughts. Has nothing to do with fooling the industry. It's about decorum.

If you're a 500 lb massively obese person you're not fooling anyone that you're skinny by wearing a "slimming outfit." But you might want to do it anyway and you wouldn't be wrong to want to.

[LBJ's Hair]

Seems likely you'll get trued up at the end of the year, so not the end of the world. And good on PW for paying staff.

But don't be a sap. PW management does not actually believe Apollo or retail owners in Chelsea who lost their businesses (is that what they mean by "community"?) or whoever else gives a shit if PW pays low/mid-5-figure-bonuses to associates.

They just don't want to pay you because, well, it's money, and it's always better to pay someone later (or not at all) than sooner if you can.

[Anonymous User]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

This "optics" things is an interesting take. You realize average profits-per-partner is public information right?

I have a question for you as an insider. Now that you've admitted that Brad Karp is not a straight shooter, that he is a contrived and misleading person, that he is a person who will shove fall bonuses into year end, as opposed to paying it now, solely to try and deceive clients about all the millions he made off of their covid troubles, because they're apparently morons and would fall for such a ruse . . . Do you think he would go so far as to fudge the profit per partner information to make it seem like they made less than they did? That's the natural extension of what you just wrote, no?

None of this "optics" stuff makes any sense. If biglaw firms cared about optics there are much more rational solutions than "hide the fall bonuses in winter bonuses to trick clients into thinking we're struggling like they are." There are better explanations, including "we're worried about another economic collapse between now and February and want to effectively buy a put option on that by not paying you bonuses until then."

Give up it up on "optics." Everyone, clients included, knows biglaw partners are greedy assholes. People aren't stupid.

PW midlevel from above here.

You realize the contradiction you are giving, right? If there is an “economic collapse” such that they would not pay bonuses, then they’re not making nearly as much off the “covid troubles” as you assume.

Again, PW partners have not received draws since the pandemic afaik. What that means (if you’re familiar with how partner comp works), is that some junior partners have been paid LESSS THAN seniors since the pandemic. They will eventually get theirs (usually in January even in a typical year), and we will get ours too.

I am a biglaw partner and you, pw midlevel, are being lied to and have no idea how partner compensation works. equity partners are not paid out in lump sums sporadically throughout the year in the form of a "draw" when firms determine they have distributable cash. partners have expensive lifestyles and correspondingly large mortgages and bills. Creditors won't wait around until we get a magical unpredictable parachute of cash so they can get paid. which is why firms pay their partners regularly, whether with cash on hand or using the firm's revolver, with the remainder of the total comp paid out when available periodically, similar to a bonus. but a majority of our comp is paid out on the regular.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

PW midlevel here.
Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it.

Sure were a lot of quotes from the ATL article that seemed to have some major issues.

You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus.

Well, yeah. That's sort of how it ought to work. You'll note the chief complaints about the profession turning into a dumpster fire over the long term have to do with associates getting less and less of the revenue their billables generate.

Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.”

Sure there are. Clients care about how much they pay and what they receive for it. Firms raise rates like clockwork every year even though it annoys every client--that's bad "optics." A firm who makes $5 million a year can't tell clients they do it to make a "reasonable" profit with a straight face, so they always just say they charge top dollar for top work. It would be pretty easy to tell any client they have to pay top dollar to keep the top associates, but WEIRDLY, the "optics" only seem to matter when money isn't going directly to them!

By the way, clients aren't the only "optics" to be concerned about. Maybe associates, law students and potential laterals are getting a huge whiff of horseshit. Maybe the people who cared about racial justice or their two dead colleagues aren't thrilled with bringing them up in the same email where a billion-dollar law firm asks for sympathy for its multibillion-dollar clients.

I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think).

Brad: "Hey, we're not gonna pay fall bonuses. Does anyone have a FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT?"
Meek, Terrified Associates' Committee: Of course not! Another brilliant strategic move boss! I personally think our partners are underpaid!

[plantcoveredbuilding]

None of this "optics" stuff makes any sense. If biglaw firms cared about optics there are much more rational solutions than "hide the fall bonuses in winter bonuses to trick clients into thinking we're struggling like they are." There are better explanations, including "we're worried about another economic collapse between now and February and want to effectively buy a put option on that by not paying you bonuses until then."

PW midlevel from above here.

You realize the contradiction you are giving, right? If there is an “economic collapse” such that they would not pay bonuses, then they’re not making nearly as much off the “covid troubles” as you assume.

It's not contradictory at all. Let me explain how the put option works. Let's look at DPW partners. If there's an economic collapse between now and February (not likely but there are signs of volatility as a result of the election and there is the possibility of a second wave, and the PPP is winding down, and we don't know about another stimulus ... ) -- the DPW partners will not be able to get back the money they lost by paying fall bonuses. Sure, they could cancel winter bonuses, but that fall bonus money is gone. Compare that to PW partners. They won't lose the fall bonus money, because they never paid it. This is essentially a put option, that PW partners bought from Associates for free. And no, put options in real life aren't free.

There are other devious explanations for why PW is delaying bonuses. I know an associate at a firm who was let go shortly before the deadline on which he would have legally accrued a $50k bonus, because the firm didn't want to pay it. So if PW has associates that they want to let go, without paying them a bonus, they have more time to do that.

I can think of other explanations but you get the point.

Be honest -- were you tools on the Associate Committee hoping Brad Karp rewards you in some way for kissing his ass? Well you let him make a fool of himself. If you don't want to pay a bonus don't pay it, but don't add insult to injury by guilting associates for hoping for one.

[Anonymous User]

PW midlevel here.

Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it. You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus. Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.” You can say it’s all crap, and they’re just greedy pigs, but I honestly do not believe that to be the case. Brad cares more about optics than anyone, especially in light of recent snafus at the firm (all white male partner photo op) etc. Maybe he is wrong about negative optics from this, but I have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now. I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think). Btw, I am close with a junior partner who has informed me that partners haven’t gotten a draw since the pandemic started. So they may get their millions eventually, but they haven’t been benefitting in the interim while we sit and wait around for a bonus we never even expected to get.

As to ambiguity on whether PW will true up in December, instead of arguing semantics in language used in the memo I’ll just offer to bet anyone interestes that they will and I’ll lay significant odds. Lmk.

In before “Hi Brad.” (I can confirm, I am not Brad, just an associate who works more than he sleeps and nonetheless believes his firm is genuinely a pretty good place to work as far as big law goes).

This "optics" things is an interesting take. You realize average profits-per-partner is public information right?

I have a question for you as an insider. Now that you've admitted that Brad Karp is not a straight shooter, that he is a contrived and misleading person, that he is a person who will shove fall bonuses into year end, as opposed to paying it now, solely to try and deceive clients about all the millions he made off of their covid troubles, because they're apparently morons and would fall for such a ruse . . . Do you think he would go so far as to fudge the profit per partner information to make it seem like they made less than they did? That's the natural extension of what you just wrote, no?

None of this "optics" stuff makes any sense. If biglaw firms cared about optics there are much more rational solutions than "hide the fall bonuses in winter bonuses to trick clients into thinking we're struggling like they are." There are better explanations, including "we're worried about another economic collapse between now and February and want to effectively buy a put option on that by not paying you bonuses until then."

Give up it up on "optics." Everyone, clients included, knows biglaw partners are greedy assholes. People aren't stupid.

PW midlevel from above here.

You realize the contradiction you are giving, right? If there is an “economic collapse” such that they would not pay bonuses, then they’re not making nearly as much off the “covid troubles” as you assume.

Again, PW partners have not received draws since the pandemic afaik. What that means (if you’re familiar with how partner comp works), is that some junior partners have been paid LESSS THAN seniors since the pandemic. They will eventually get theirs (usually in January even in a typical year), and we will get ours too.

I am a biglaw partner and you, pw midlevel, are being lied to and have no idea how partner compensation works. equity partners are not paid out in lump sums sporadically throughout the year in the form of a "draw" when firms determine they have distributable cash. partners have expensive lifestyles and correspondingly large mortgages and bills. Creditors won't wait around until we get a magical unpredictable parachute of cash so they can get paid. which is why firms pay their partners regularly, whether with cash on hand or using the firm's revolver, with the remainder of the total comp paid out when available periodically, similar to a bonus. but a majority of our comp is paid out on the regular.

Actually, this is wrong as it pertains to PW, or part wrong, since it's not exactly clear to me what you are saying.

But I am 100% sure of how the process at PW works. Partners get X amt of money twice a month, same as associates. X varies depending on seniority, but it is not dissimilar to amounts associates receive. They do indeed get (somewhat) unpredictable parachutes of cash, generally 4x a year, with the largest distribution typically coming in January or February, after the bulk of collections from the prior year are received and finalized. So I don't doubt that you get most of your comp regularly. PW partners do not.

[legalpotato]

Seems likely you'll get trued up at the end of the year, so not the end of the world. And good on PW for paying staff.

But don't be a sap. PW management does not actually believe Apollo or retail owners in Chelsea who lost their businesses (is that what they mean by "community"?) or whoever else gives a shit if PW pays low/mid-5-figure-bonuses to associates.

They just don't want to pay you because, well, it's money, and it's always better to pay someone later (or not at all) than sooner if you can.

This. Some bizarre rationalizations happening ITT. Pretty simple: the firms that paid fall bonuses have placed a premium on associate retention and the other firms have decided associate retention is less important than them either deferring payment, keeping it to themselves, or as someone else pointed out, essentially giving themselves a put option to pay/not pay in case a 2nd wave of covid lets them pay out 30k max bonuses to everyone w/ a straight face. There is nothing virtuous or "optics" happening here, it is a cold, calculated decision motivated purely by what they value most (in the case of most firms, apparently larger partner distributions).

[Anonymous User]

PW midlevel here.
Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it.

Sure were a lot of quotes from the ATL article that seemed to have some major issues.

Same PW mid-level here. Responses in bold.

Yea it's a big firm so I don't speak for everyone. Everyone I have spoken to about this (10+ people) have the same reactions as the other people quoted in that ATL article, which is, "relax, you're going to get your bonuses in a few months."

You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus.

Well, yeah. That's sort of how it ought to work. You'll note the chief complaints about the profession turning into a dumpster fire over the long term have to do with associates getting less and less of the revenue their billables generate.

I meant optically. Again, I don't want to have the argument that optics are horseshit. I get that you don't think that's a legitimate excuse or even the truth. But accepting for the sake of argument that PW brass does care about the optics, them silently collecting revenue (and even paying out draws--which as mentioned, they haven't done but even if they had) is not public information and doesn't entail what paying an associate bonus does--an email announcement that essentially becomes a press release.

Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.”

Sure there are. Clients care about how much they pay and what they receive for it. Firms raise rates like clockwork every year even though it annoys every client--that's bad "optics." A firm who makes $5 million a year can't tell clients they do it to make a "reasonable" profit with a straight face, so they always just say they charge top dollar for top work. It would be pretty easy to tell any client they have to pay top dollar to keep the top associates, but WEIRDLY, the "optics" only seem to matter when money isn't going directly to them!

Caring about how much you pay does not equate to a public announcement. By the time PPP for 2020 is announced (later in 2021), PW associates will have long earned their special bonuses, and again, if you disagree, happy to put my money where my mouth is and will lay significant odds.

By the way, clients aren't the only "optics" to be concerned about. Maybe associates, law students and potential laterals are getting a huge whiff of horseshit. Maybe the people who cared about racial justice or their two dead colleagues aren't thrilled with bringing them up in the same email where a billion-dollar law firm asks for sympathy for its multibillion-dollar clients.

I agree with this. Doesn't mean they were wrong to not pay bonuses right now.

I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think).

Brad: "Hey, we're not gonna pay fall bonuses. Does anyone have a FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT?"
Meek, Terrified Associates' Committee: Of course not! Another brilliant strategic move boss! I personally think our partners are underpaid!

I know you're not at PW, but if you knew anything about how the associates committee works and had ever heard past town halls Brad gave, you'd know that it definitely didn't go anything like this. Brad kowtows to the Associates Committee--not vice versa. You probably don't believe me because he's their boss and can fire all of them and what I'm saying is nonsensical. That's fine. But I guarantee you it was phrased as a "do you think we should pay bonuses now or in a few months" rather than a "here's what we're going to do take it or leave it." The reality is, Brad cares A LOT more about what the associates think about him and the firm than I even think he should. And maybe the Associates Committee got cajoled by convincing arguments (because I'm not doubting that Brad's thoughts were that it was inappropriate), and maybe they're all suckers--I'm close friends with some members but not a member myself. In any event, I know that as part of the discussions, he made clear that he would pay this bonus eventually, so it's just a timing thing. And that's the ultimate point here. Yes there is some infinitesimal chance they don't get paid out if the world comes to an end tomorrow. But realistically, PW associates will get the equivalent of these special bonuses in a few months, and the only thing to gripe about is your 2-3 month TVOM complaint. I'm not losing sleep over it.

And btw, if they DON'T get paid out, it means something happened between now and the end of the year that seriously affects revenue, which of course affects partner revenue. So this idea that they all have record PPP but we get nothing is nonsense. If it ends up being true that their PPP is a record high, then we'll undoubtedly get the extra bonus.

[malibustacy]

PW midlevel here.
Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it.

Sure were a lot of quotes from the ATL article that seemed to have some major issues.

Same PW mid-level here. Responses in bold.

Yea it's a big firm so I don't speak for everyone. Everyone I have spoken to about this (10+ people) have the same reactions as the other people quoted in that ATL article, which is, "relax, you're going to get your bonuses in a few months."

You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus.

Well, yeah. That's sort of how it ought to work. You'll note the chief complaints about the profession turning into a dumpster fire over the long term have to do with associates getting less and less of the revenue their billables generate.

I meant optically. Again, I don't want to have the argument that optics are horseshit. I get that you don't think that's a legitimate excuse or even the truth. But accepting for the sake of argument that PW brass does care about the optics, them silently collecting revenue (and even paying out draws--which as mentioned, they haven't done but even if they had) is not public information and doesn't entail what paying an associate bonus does--an email announcement that essentially becomes a press release.

Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.”

Sure there are. Clients care about how much they pay and what they receive for it. Firms raise rates like clockwork every year even though it annoys every client--that's bad "optics." A firm who makes $5 million a year can't tell clients they do it to make a "reasonable" profit with a straight face, so they always just say they charge top dollar for top work. It would be pretty easy to tell any client they have to pay top dollar to keep the top associates, but WEIRDLY, the "optics" only seem to matter when money isn't going directly to them!

Caring about how much you pay does not equate to a public announcement. By the time PPP for 2020 is announced (later in 2021), PW associates will have long earned their special bonuses, and again, if you disagree, happy to put my money where my mouth is and will lay significant odds.

By the way, clients aren't the only "optics" to be concerned about. Maybe associates, law students and potential laterals are getting a huge whiff of horseshit. Maybe the people who cared about racial justice or their two dead colleagues aren't thrilled with bringing them up in the same email where a billion-dollar law firm asks for sympathy for its multibillion-dollar clients.

I agree with this. Doesn't mean they were wrong to not pay bonuses right now.

I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think).

Brad: "Hey, we're not gonna pay fall bonuses. Does anyone have a FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT?"
Meek, Terrified Associates' Committee: Of course not! Another brilliant strategic move boss! I personally think our partners are underpaid!

I know you're not at PW, but if you knew anything about how the associates committee works and had ever heard past town halls Brad gave, you'd know that it definitely didn't go anything like this. Brad kowtows to the Associates Committee--not vice versa. You probably don't believe me because he's their boss and can fire all of them and what I'm saying is nonsensical. That's fine. But I guarantee you it was phrased as a "do you think we should pay bonuses now or in a few months" rather than a "here's what we're going to do take it or leave it." The reality is, Brad cares A LOT more about what the associates think about him and the firm than I even think he should. And maybe the Associates Committee got cajoled by convincing arguments (because I'm not doubting that Brad's thoughts were that it was inappropriate), and maybe they're all suckers--I'm close friends with some members but not a member myself. In any event, I know that as part of the discussions, he made clear that he would pay this bonus eventually, so it's just a timing thing. And that's the ultimate point here. Yes there is some infinitesimal chance they don't get paid out if the world comes to an end tomorrow. But realistically, PW associates will get the equivalent of these special bonuses in a few months, and the only thing to gripe about is your 2-3 month TVOM complaint. I'm not losing sleep over it.

And btw, if they DON'T get paid out, it means something happened between now and the end of the year that seriously affects revenue, which of course affects partner revenue. So this idea that they all have record PPP but we get nothing is nonsense. If it ends up being true that their PPP is a record high, then we'll undoubtedly get the extra bonus.

Jeez. You could have made Brad a few hundred bucks in billables during the time it took to think and type all of that out.

[Anonymous User]

And btw, if they DON'T get paid out, it means something happened between now and the end of the year that seriously affects revenue, which of course affects partner revenue. So this idea that they all have record PPP but we get nothing is nonsense. If it ends up being true that their PPP is a record high, then we'll undoubtedly get the extra bonus.
[/b]

Freshfields has what, $2.3mm PEP and PW associates are OK not getting the same level of compensation if PW isn't breaking $4.7mm PEP this year? Associates at PW should be demanding Freshfields level compensation even if profits are down 50% -- instead we get this rambling. Good for PW partners, I guess.

[ChairmanKaga]

Let me summarize:

PW associates are informed that Leon Black has reached out. He is comfortable with PW partners making millions more than other top law firms. But he is not OK with associates receiving a few thousand more in order to keep them in line with other very famous New York firms whose associate bonuses have been reported widely.

PW associates accept this. In fact they have "have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now". So passionate are they in their acceptance that they take to TLS to defend PW.

They accept this in part because they believe "PW partners have not received draws since the pandemic". PW associates are of course "100% sure of how the process at PW works" for equity partner distributions.

They also believe that the PW associates on their associates committee "agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think)". Indeed, "if you knew anything about how the associates committee works", you'd know that "Brad kowtows to the Associates Committee--not vice versa".

For a storied litigation firm, PW associates are surprisingly untrained in the art of not overstating your case...

[Anonymous User]

Let me summarize:

PW associates are informed that Leon Black has reached out. He is comfortable with PW partners making millions more than other top law firms. But he is not OK with associates receiving a few thousand more in order to keep them in line with other very famous New York firms whose associate bonuses have been reported widely.

PW associates accept this. In fact they have "have ZERO doubt that this is legitimately the reason for not paying out now". So passionate are they in their acceptance that they take to TLS to defend PW.

They accept this in part because they believe "PW partners have not received draws since the pandemic". PW associates are of course "100% sure of how the process at PW works" for equity partner distributions.

They also believe that the PW associates on their associates committee "agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think)". Indeed, "if you knew anything about how the associates committee works", you'd know that "Brad kowtows to the Associates Committee--not vice versa".

For a storied litigation firm, PW associates are surprisingly untrained in the art of not overstating your case...

Different PW associate. Don't really care if i get paid now or later as long as i earn as much as a Freshfields associate. Clearly some in our ranks drink the kool-aid more vigorously than others...I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the brass delayed the bonus because some of our pro bono partner orgs cried about it. It's that type of place.

Brad kowtows to no one except maybe the Inclusion Task Force (i.e. NY Times Response Unit).

[Buglaw]

PW midlevel here.
Yall are way overreacting. The firm’s biggest crime here was waiting way too long to say something. But no one I know at the firm, including myself, has any major issues with how they are handling it.

Sure were a lot of quotes from the ATL article that seemed to have some major issues.

Same PW mid-level here. Responses in bold.

Yea it's a big firm so I don't speak for everyone. Everyone I have spoken to about this (10+ people) have the same reactions as the other people quoted in that ATL article, which is, "relax, you're going to get your bonuses in a few months."

You guys acting like the firm taking in revenue = getting paid a bonus.

Well, yeah. That's sort of how it ought to work. You'll note the chief complaints about the profession turning into a dumpster fire over the long term have to do with associates getting less and less of the revenue their billables generate.

I meant optically. Again, I don't want to have the argument that optics are horseshit. I get that you don't think that's a legitimate excuse or even the truth. But accepting for the sake of argument that PW brass does care about the optics, them silently collecting revenue (and even paying out draws--which as mentioned, they haven't done but even if they had) is not public information and doesn't entail what paying an associate bonus does--an email announcement that essentially becomes a press release.

Of course the partners are profiting, but there are no optics involved with a partner draw, whereas there are with announcing “Covid Bonuses.”

Sure there are. Clients care about how much they pay and what they receive for it. Firms raise rates like clockwork every year even though it annoys every client--that's bad "optics." A firm who makes $5 million a year can't tell clients they do it to make a "reasonable" profit with a straight face, so they always just say they charge top dollar for top work. It would be pretty easy to tell any client they have to pay top dollar to keep the top associates, but WEIRDLY, the "optics" only seem to matter when money isn't going directly to them!

Caring about how much you pay does not equate to a public announcement. By the time PPP for 2020 is announced (later in 2021), PW associates will have long earned their special bonuses, and again, if you disagree, happy to put my money where my mouth is and will lay significant odds.

By the way, clients aren't the only "optics" to be concerned about. Maybe associates, law students and potential laterals are getting a huge whiff of horseshit. Maybe the people who cared about racial justice or their two dead colleagues aren't thrilled with bringing them up in the same email where a billion-dollar law firm asks for sympathy for its multibillion-dollar clients.

I agree with this. Doesn't mean they were wrong to not pay bonuses right now.

I’m also told that he conferred with the associates committee, who agreed with the decision (and they don’t just bend over like you might think).

Brad: "Hey, we're not gonna pay fall bonuses. Does anyone have a FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT?"
Meek, Terrified Associates' Committee: Of course not! Another brilliant strategic move boss! I personally think our partners are underpaid!

I know you're not at PW, but if you knew anything about how the associates committee works and had ever heard past town halls Brad gave, you'd know that it definitely didn't go anything like this. Brad kowtows to the Associates Committee--not vice versa. You probably don't believe me because he's their boss and can fire all of them and what I'm saying is nonsensical. That's fine. But I guarantee you it was phrased as a "do you think we should pay bonuses now or in a few months" rather than a "here's what we're going to do take it or leave it." The reality is, Brad cares A LOT more about what the associates think about him and the firm than I even think he should. And maybe the Associates Committee got cajoled by convincing arguments (because I'm not doubting that Brad's thoughts were that it was inappropriate), and maybe they're all suckers--I'm close friends with some members but not a member myself. In any event, I know that as part of the discussions, he made clear that he would pay this bonus eventually, so it's just a timing thing. And that's the ultimate point here. Yes there is some infinitesimal chance they don't get paid out if the world comes to an end tomorrow. But realistically, PW associates will get the equivalent of these special bonuses in a few months, and the only thing to gripe about is your 2-3 month TVOM complaint. I'm not losing sleep over it.

And btw, if they DON'T get paid out, it means something happened between now and the end of the year that seriously affects revenue, which of course affects partner revenue. So this idea that they all have record PPP but we get nothing is nonsense. If it ends up being true that their PPP is a record high, then we'll undoubtedly get the extra bonus.

Jeez. You could have made Brad a few hundred bucks in billables during the time it took to think and type all of that out.

This is some ridiculous rationale from this PW mid level. PW has had record profits probably 18 out of the last 20 years (just guessing, I didn't look it up). I seriously doubt there was special comp for the associates 18 out of the last 20 years. Partners profits have nothing to do with associate compensation. They are totally disconnected and thus Cravath has historically paid their associates the same as Katten. In fact, depending on your hours, you could, historically, make a decent amount more at Katten than at Cravath.

I have no idea why this guy is shilling for PW. Like, who is so proud that their firm paid them less so the partners could hoard more and signal to clients. Like, why do you care. It's not like it's good for you or for your fellow associates.

[Anonymous User]

Actually, this is wrong as it pertains to PW, or part wrong, since it's not exactly clear to me what you are saying.

But I am 100% sure of how the process at PW works. Partners get X amt of money twice a month, same as associates. X varies depending on seniority, but it is not dissimilar to amounts associates receive. They do indeed get (somewhat) unpredictable parachutes of cash, generally 4x a year, with the largest distribution typically coming in January or February, after the bulk of collections from the prior year are received and finalized. So I don't doubt that you get most of your comp regularly. PW partners do not.

It's actually very apparent you have no idea. You are claiming that some equity partners at PW have received, over the past 7 months, less total compensation than a senior associate during the same period. Let's say a new equity partner at PW makes about 1/3 of the average, so around $1.5 million. Do you honestly believe that this person is getting paid less than $200k ($340k annualized) over 7 months (pre tax)? Do you know how expensive private schools, summer homes and MFH mortgages cost?

[Anonymous User]

Actually, this is wrong as it pertains to PW, or part wrong, since it's not exactly clear to me what you are saying.

But I am 100% sure of how the process at PW works. Partners get X amt of money twice a month, same as associates. X varies depending on seniority, but it is not dissimilar to amounts associates receive. They do indeed get (somewhat) unpredictable parachutes of cash, generally 4x a year, with the largest distribution typically coming in January or February, after the bulk of collections from the prior year are received and finalized. So I don't doubt that you get most of your comp regularly. PW partners do not.

It's actually very apparent you have no idea. You are claiming that some equity partners at PW have received, over the past 7 months, less total compensation than a senior associate during the same period. Let's say a new equity partner at PW makes about 1/3 of the average, so around $1.5 million. Do you honestly believe that this person is getting paid less than $200k ($340k annualized) over 7 months (pre tax)? Do you know how expensive private schools, summer homes and MFH mortgages cost?

I mean I’m not going to continue to argue with you. Believe what you want to believe. But you are clearly just speculating whereas I know for a fact. I even know specifics. Subject to a raise in their bimonthly payments that idk about, junior partners have actually made quite a bit less than senior associates over the last 7 months. And that is why junior partners largely do not buy those expensive things you listed, at least not until after several years in when they have built up a bit of a nest egg.

But it’s also not as spaced out as it may seem. Like I said, typically draws are done quarterly—and the draws are big. So one quarter is enough to pay your bills for quite a while.

Last year, first year partners at PW made about 900k-1m, depending on a few factors. In terms of regular salary-esque payments—they made about $200k (so like a first year assoc). So every 2 weeks, they get 200k/24. Then each quarter they get a partner draw, and those range from 100k - 400k (for first year partners) depending on firm profitability, and rate of collections. Again, the largest draw is typically in January. It is quite possible they increased the salary-esque payments for partners in light of suspended draws, especially for the juniors. Admittedly I’m not sure but it would make sense. But most junior partners got $300-700k at the beginning of this year already, depending, on how junior they are. I think they are doing ok.

Also—as a partner (or so you claim) you must be familiar with this kind of system. Maybe it’s not how your firm or even most firms do it (I can only speak for PW) but this kind of structure is super common in corporate America, eapecially in public companies. Go pull the exec comp of any “small” public company and you’re likely to see several NEOs with $300 or 400k in base salary and $1-2 million in bonus/stock options. Now obv they are beholden to shareholders so it’s not quite the same, but many of my private clients have the same deal. The CEO of a several hundred million dollar revenue private company that I am currently defending in litigation makes $350k in “salary,” and anywhere from $2m to $4m in bonus, depending on the company’s profitability. And he gets that bonus money once a year, when everyone else does.

[Dahl]

This thread is fascinating. It is amazing to me that there are associates who believe BigLaw partner decisions about the firm are ever motivated by anything other than their pockets. Fascinating.

[Dcc617]

Biglaw depends on gullible associates willing to work themselves to the bone for marketing slogans and the illusory goal of partner.

[plantcoveredbuilding]

This thread is fascinating. It is amazing to me that there are associates who believe BigLaw partner decisions about the firm are ever motivated by anything other than their pockets. Fascinating.

Sometimes law firm culture reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1FxfR3 ... l=PeteKent

[Idontwanttomakeaname]

This thread is fascinating. It is amazing to me that there are associates who believe BigLaw partner decisions about the firm are ever motivated by anything other than their pockets. Fascinating.

I mean, I feel like the MUST be motivated to some extent by the delusion of a “culture” or the value of the “institution” to which they belong. I’m at a N.Y. v5 and I’m reasonably confident that most of the partners could find jobs that either paid them more or required them to work less for excellent but not quite as good money. I think they surely must to some extent believe their own bullshit because if not, I don’t really know how they could justify their existences.

[Ultramar vistas]

This thread is fascinating. It is amazing to me that there are associates who believe BigLaw partner decisions about the firm are ever motivated by anything other than their pockets. Fascinating.

I mean, I feel like the MUST be motivated to some extent by the delusion of a “culture” or the value of the “institution” to which they belong. I’m at a N.Y. v5 and I’m reasonably confident that most of the partners could find jobs that either paid them more or required them to work less for excellent but not quite as good money. I think they surely must to some extent believe their own bullshit because if not, I don’t really know how they could justify their existences.

Sorry, but what on earth leads you to think that more than a fraction of partners at V5s could get jobs paying them more than ~4MM a year?