yupDanger Zone wrote:Stopped reading at 0L, as everyone else should.cheesycake2000 wrote:Hey guys, 0L but I have an observation.
So I'm a hodgepodge of typical lawyer traits, maybe in a somewhat atypical combination. Immigrant striver, well off parents (not like, own a dry cleaner well off either) and I would've been K-JD if not for the internet. About halfway through college I came upon things like this thread and Way Worse than Being a Dentist, freaked out, and tried a few different things after failing to get a job in IB (was in the running but hardly on the cusp of it). Long story short, a couple years pass and I decide rather than just chillin with people all day while working bullshit jobs, I should reconsider law (in the meantime I researched a multitude of careers and had friends who went on to become various things that I hear about). So I took a job as a para at a midlaw New York firm (I'm a local). I figured it'd be a great way to make decent cash (without mooching off my parents like I've been doing up until then to supplement my meager odd jobs) and the obscurity of the firm (NLJ 350 or whatever that listing is called but certainly not V100) would mean I'd have a pretty easy life.
Granted, I wound up working more than I wanted to (I suppose I could've skated by with close to 40 hours per week considering I'm not trying to make a career of this and getting fired wouldn't be a big deal, but I was curious what lawyer hours would be like). I feel like what I see in no way matches what I read.
First, I heard there are no good midlaw jobs. That's plainly not true. The firm has a variety of work, including on cases big enough that the average person would have heard of them in the news. Our partners charge in the 600-800 range, so I feel like it's not a nickel and dime type of shop. The only people with good degrees we have are either BIgLaw refugees (pretty much all people who came with the promise of being made partner) or people in their 80s, from back when all firms were smaller and this one was apparently white shoe and elite.
It's clearly gone downhill in terms of prestige as our last three decades of hires are from places I did not realize had law schools, including (just as a sampling) the biggest joke of a school in all of Brooklyn, some place in Atlanta that I don't think even qualifies as a TTT and those who went to better places are mostly Brooklyn Law, Cardozo, NYLS and other similar places. Our associates, as far as I can tell, start at between 110 and 135k a year somewhere but I was unable to narrow it down more precisely.
It really doesn't seem that bad. As a paralegal I get work that's too insubstantial for young attorneys and do plenty of tasks which a normal person could justly describe as boring and repetitive (yet involving enough brainpower and attention to detail that you can't tune out, even if not enough to be challenging). Still, I don't really mind the work. From our time entry system I know our stated goal is 1800, stated bonus is 2000 but realistically it's 2200 to stay not fired and 2400+ to be considered worthwhile. Our office looks like shit (I've been to fancier firms for interviews so I know the difference), although it's finally getting redone. But here are some prominent things I'm beginning to wonder are myths:
Constant 90-100 hour workweeks. Nobody at my place works this much ON AVERAGE. Yes, there are tough times (sometimes for a couple of months at a time) but I'd be surprised if the average was above 65 even considering those. Whenever I leave past 9pm it's usually a small minority of people in the office, and since I maintain peoples' schedules and do their time entries I know roughly how much they work. Some people work from home after dinner, but they tend to be the ones who leave earlier like 6-7.
Extreme up or out. Lots of people at the firm are associates who have been there for over a decade. Many make counsel (few make partner) but even associates make good money compared to the average American. Hell, they significantly beat the average Manhattan residents from what I know.
People being terrible. Most people I work with are normal people. The types of people I see in a law firm aren't that different from the type of people I met in college. Sure, there are some screamers but I am puzzled as to how people could find them threatening. Maybe it's that I grew up in a third world shithole (prior to my parents being well off), but it's just people yelling at you. How bad can it be? Most of the time it doesn't even mean there's anything wrong with you, some people just handle stress that way. A lot of people (and, surprisingly, a higher percentage among partners and even higher among rainmakers than among the firm as a whole) are genuinely nice people. Granted, less so in litigation than in any other practice area I've seen.
The work being soul crushing. The only way I could see this being true is if you've lived one of those lives where your parents spend your entire childhood doting on you to make sure little Tyler feels fully self actualized and non threatened at all times. It's really no different from other office jobs I've had for me and for attorneys (especially more senior ones) actually looks interesting. To be fair, I thrive under stressful conditions so I can see how someone who hates being under pressure would find this job unbearable, because there genuinely is (even at my lowly level) pressure to get perfect work product out yesterday.
No time to do anything. Granted a 40 hour workweek would be better, but people have lives. People date and get married. I don't think divorce is any more prevalent than in New York as a whole. Granted, spending time with kids is tough, that one I'll give you, but I think Americans place too much of an emphasis on constantly hovering over their kids anyway. Lot of people I grew up with mainly saw their dad on the weekend. Anyway, people seem to have lives. They go for drinks with friends, to restaurants, to sporting events, some run marathons, some do martial arts (not Tiger Schulman's either, I've seen the fight videos - they're pretty sick), some just get wasted several nights a week and go to clubs. Basically, generally normal lives from the outside. Also the job seems pretty flexible. If it's slow, nobody is going to fault you for going to a dentist appointment midday, a perk which is unimaginable at your typical blue collar job.
I don't know guys, did I stumble on some sort of unicorn? Prior to working here I wasn't going to go to law school unless I got into a T14 on a good scholarship and even then I was preemptively planning going in house (sidenote: litigators seem to have just as easy a time going in house as corporate, plenty of people have left into in house positions and people give me puzzled looks when I bring up corporate having an advantage) and/or killing myself through decades of drinking.
Honestly, it doesn't seem that bad. And 110k starting (160k and bonus at a good firm!) might not mean much to you (for some reason) but I get the feeling you lack perspective. I grew up in a place where you got your water from a well and sunglasses were high tech enough for people to gawk at. Then my family's wealth went into the 8 figures so while my dad may not be Elon Musk I've gotten to experience a better life than most in material terms. I drove a German car in college and all that good stuff. 110k is still a lot.
The biggest flame of all seems to be the constant "grass is greener". Teachers I know constantly joke (nervously) about being poor. I know some people who are really happy with union jobs (which do pay great per hour and have amazing perks, provided you can get them) but they're mostly pretty dumb and unambitious. Also I know enough mechanics and other union workers from growing up in my old neighborhood that I know the sort of environment they work in is (in social terms) boring as hell for someone like me. There's more to life than worldstar videos and fart jokes. Like discussing an interesting book you read. Nurses seem to work just as hard as lawyers but in way shittier conditions and generally make less. Doctors don't make nearly as much as reputed unless they're either brilliant and in a top specialty or commit massive billing fraud. Salesman is a very unstable line of work. Marketing pays shitty on most levels and is only enjoyable for a very special kind of douchebag. Bizdev guys work nonstop and mostly make less than lawyers do. Software engineering would be a great job if you're into that sort of thing, but I just find programming incredibly boring (it's lucrative enough by reputation that I tried my hand at it as a double major and in my spare time but found it unbearable). Frankly, I'm on the outside looking in but the software engineers I know don't seem that happy. Financiers (especially buy side) do make a lot more money than lawyers at the same age, but in my experience their hours are also significantly worse and (much like in law) there's no guarantee, to put it mildly, of getting to the level where you're pulling in serious cash and their work environment seems worse from what I can tell. Startups are cool as hell, but I don't have the talent or personality for that and very few of them make money, and from what I can see the lifestyle sucks.
I'm not saying I'd rather do law than sit around all day smoking weed and playing video games then going out at night with my buddies. If my parents were worth in the 9 figures rather than 8 and if they raised me like a trust fund baby (like some people I know) I definitely wouldn't be doing this. But they're from humble backgrounds and are low key (if you saw where they live or what they drive you would not assume they're wealthy, although they've spoiled me and my siblings growing up), so they made it clear to me that 1) I'm not getting anything past college 2) if I want an inheritance one day, I better be successful in my own rite, as there's no point in giving your hard earned money to a slacker so he can waste it. I think both are fair points although obviously I'd prefer if they just showered me in cash forever lol.
Anyway, I'm probably going to go into law despite everything I've read. Go ahead and tell me I'm delusional, privileged, a douchebag or whatever else, but I'd rather believe my own lying eyes than random malcontents on the internet. To be honest, I have a hard time picturing the lawyers I met who are happy and successful coming to a place like this to talk about how awesome law is (also, let's face it, if it wasn't for the money nobody would do this, but it's hardly the only job you can say that for), but I can picture every single kind of bitter loser congregating on the internet warning that nobody could possible succeed because they failed.
The only point of this post is to share one person's observations, biased though they may be.
it was like 0L
long self-indulgent rant
no thanks
