Michigan 2014 OCI Thread!!!!!!! Forum

[Anonymous User]

Freshfields CB

Where

Not OP, but CB w/ Freshfields NY.

[Anonymous User]

Kramer Levin (NY) ding
Shearman & Sterling (NY) ding

[woldverine]

I'm a UM grad and an interviewer at OCI (which is apparently "EIW" know, for some reason). I've done it 3-4 times now. I also interview at schools on the West Coast, and I do Interview Coaching for two top 10 schools (one of them being UM).

I can't speak for all firms, or all offices of my firm. But a couple tips based on things I've seen. I know this is late advice for screeners, but it may help for callbacks.

1) Don't bs. I'm paid to see through bs. When I ask why you chose this firm and you say "you know, high quality attorneys, diversity of practice, and reputation," that signals to me that you didn't research anything. That applies to 90% of the firms at OCI, and all of our competitors. And in a hypercompetitive market (in both directions), it makes me think that you aren't that interested. The #1 tip I can offer is know something specific about me, my firm, my office. I have to ask the question "Why [my firm]?" And as I listen to your answer, I check a box on a form that ranges from "very interested" to "not interested." You can't convince me with platitudes, and as soon as I hear them, I nod and check "not very." Just go to the "Recent News" section of any firm's website and read for 15 minutes. It doesn't even matter if I can have a conversation with you about that news (the odds are I won't, because the odds I'm on that specific case are low), it telegraphs to me that you actually care. I might be rare, but I actually review resumes in advance and think of some questions. It is a bummer when the person I'm interviewing puts in less effort than I do. At a bare minimum, you should know what Practice Group I'm in.

2) Similarly, don't bs me on other topics. Avoid canned answers. Remember, the people interviewing you are lawyers. You're not going to outsmart them by reading something you recited in a mirror. Be natural. If I ask "do you really want to work at a biglaw firm" and you tell me it's been your dream your entire life (that has really happened), I nod and smile but think you're either weird or lying. An ok answer is, "Yes. I know it's hard and I know it's work, but I like challenges and I want to handle those interesting questions that people are willing to pay $600/hr to have answered." Or, "Yes. I know my resume shows a lot of public interest work, and that work was really rewarding, but I also really want to work in a fast-paced environment that gives me a chance to become a better attorney."

3) Never say you like a firm because of a relaxed lifestyle. My firm is known for having one. But when you say that, it suggests that you don't want to work hard. Just avoid the lifestyle topic altogether. Remember, we work hard (no matter where you are), and we want people with realistic expectations.

4) Understand your weaknesses before you go in, and have a plan to overcome them. If your resume screams "I live in Chicago" and you're applying to DC, you better have a reason. Be proactive about it. If the interviewer doesn't ask, find a way to work it in. Because I hand the resumes over to a committee (or office), and they might want answers to questions I didn't ask. Two things you need to be aware of: (1) if your resume screams "I don't know what it's like to work at a law firm and I'm not sure I want to do that," or (2) I don't have ties to this city.

5) Don't invent a practice area you want to work in just because you feel pressure to give specifics. Don't feel pressure to have an answer to the question, "what practice group do you want to work in?" It's totally, totally understandable if you just say "I don't know -- law school seems like it's only really litigation. I might be interested in corporate. I guess I'd love the chance to try both, if possible." Unfortunately, sometimes speculating will make us ding you because there's not room in that group. You may have been making it up, but if we write down "CORPORATE" and it turns out there are already amazing corporate candidates, it might make us lean toward someone else. Now, that said, if you ACTUALLY have an interest, please tell us, because it's all about fit.

6) Be calm. It's cool. You don't have to be scared. You don't have to be INCREDIBLY IMPRESSIVE. I'm not trying to find out if you can be the next president, I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth bringing you back to interview with other people. For me, that test is half "do you have the dossier to be hired at my firm" (which I usually know based purely on your resume and GPA) and half "are you someone I could have lunch with and not feel awkward." That means the speaking part of the interview is pretty much exclusively geared toward that last point.

7) Be nice, be real, be yourself. Don't be cocky. Confident is cool, but anything that would come across as "swagger" is too much. I've met with candidates who tried to go "cool guy" on me and it never works like you think it does.

8) Remember, it's not always YOU. I have interviewed folks who are awesome people, but the fit just isn't there for one reason or another. For example (redacting/changing details here), one student this year said they wanted to do Pharma work at my firm's Chicago office, but that office doesn't do Pharma work. I also had another recruit who was great, but I only had 4 callback slots, and they just barely didn't make the cut. Another person was cut by the people above me for some unknown reason. A ding doesn't mean you screwed up, and don't spend your time reflecting on the interview. If you really, truly think that you're a bad interviewer, talk to OCP. Soon. I have spoken to them before about someone who had good grades but got dinged by everyone. I had interviewed that person, and I gave honest feedback. If you have any specific questions for me, I can try to answer them.

9) You're interviewing the firm, too. At callbacks, you should be doing what we're doing. Yes, I know you want a job. But look across the desk. Does this person seem cool? Do they look exhausted by life? Are they happy? Are they engaging? Interested in interviewing you? Don't be abrasive, but feel comfortable asking real questions you want answered (again, don't be abrasive). I've heard all the canned questions about lifestyle, pro bono (stop asking big firms about pro bono), my typical day (there is none), early client contact, how work is assigned, all that. I have no helpful answers to any of those questions. Maybe you read my profile and you saw I got a chance to do ___. What kind of case was that? Maybe you ask me what I do in my free time (If I say I don't have free time, that's telling). Maybe you look around my office and find something interesting and ask me about it. Maybe you ask what my favorite assignment of my last 6 months was. Or what attributes I look for/appreciate in junior associates. You get the idea. Don't just chase firms for prestige vault rankings. Find somewhere you'd be happy, and investigate that. Don't just try to game the system.

Also, take this all with the caveat that most firms are different. For example, sometimes the screening interviewer makes the decision. Sometimes they make a recommendation and then a board makes the decision. Sometimes there's a ton of red tape, sometimes there's not. All interviewers are different, etc. But these are general tips that I've given before (with some positive results), and hopefully they help.

[Anonymous User]

Looked at the list. Did Paul Hastings NY, Debevoise and Kirkland Chi really give out their cbs? Christ. I know it sounds like a random mix, but I honestly thought I hit it off with my interviewers. I got all dings except for like 7 firms and the other 4 interviews were unmitigated disasters. I will just go and drink.

[Jack Mehoff]

Paul Hastings NY and Debevoise definitely did today. Not sure about Kirkland CHI. Kirkland NYC did, though.

[Anonymous User]

Looked at the list. Did Paul Hastings NY, Debevoise and Kirkland Chi really give out their cbs? Christ. I know it sounds like a random mix, but I honestly thought I hit it off with my interviewers. I got all dings except for like 7 firms and the other 4 interviews were unmitigated disasters. I will just go and drink.

Can someone confirm Kirkland and Sidley Chi? This some ol' bullsh. Interviewers?

[Anonymous User]

Yes, at least some Kirkland Chi (John/Michelle) and Sidley Chi (dunno) CBs have gone out.

[Anonymous User]

Did you bid on firms in competitive markets? Or firms with small SA classes? Even if your GPA is in the wheelhouse of such firms, I'd say they're almost harder to land than firms with big classes, depending on the firm.

I say this because it might not be bad interviewing causing your CB yield, in which case you should be more confident for the ones you do have.

It was mostly NY. Couple of Chicago offices and couple of international ones. I am international, so it's hard for me to justify wanting to work in other markets, although I wouldn't care. Class sizes were fair, I think. Have to go back and check to make sure.

I mean, I know I should be happy with what I have. Couple of my friends don't have any because of their gpa. They are great interviewees, much better than me. Just that a flood of rejections make me want to bash my head on something hard.

Are cbs really about being yourself and hoping that you fit in with the firm? I was actually selling myself hard at EIW and might have come off as a little intense. Maybe I should stop that.

Still waiting to hear from some firms. Freshfields cb is bad news though for me. One firm told me they would consider me next summer, so I guess I have that going for me.

BuckinghamB is completely right I think. Also I think you should focus on being normal, yourself, and calm. I did a similar thing (sold myself too hard, also practiced and used canned answers) and I fell flat on my face. Ever since then I just try to be myself and answer questions as close to honestly as I think prudent and I've been much more successful.

Consider mass mailing more firms, maybe especially other markets--you're international which may make it slightly easier in that you don't have a "home" US market but I'm not sure. And again those 3 cbs are great opportunities. It means they liked you. Be yourself.

Oops totally didn't mean to be anon: oblig.lawl.ref

Yeah, I definitely think I cost myself some interviews with my intensity. I also think it is no coincidence that my cbs are from firms where I went to their receptions. I think I make a better impression when the conversation is free-flowing without pressure.

Thanks for the advice. I got the rest of my rejections. Have to bank on the 3 and hope for the better. Will keep mass mailing, although nothing yet.

[Anonymous User]

Any cbs from foley Lardner or reed smith chicago?

[Anonymous User]

Any cbs from foley Lardner or reed smith chicago?

Dinged from Foley Chi.

[Anonymous User]

Akin Gump (DC & NY) callbacks have gone out

Callbacks for Cooley K.C. interviewer have gone out

[Anonymous User]

Thank you woldverine for the advice! I appreciate that you are taking the time to give back to us current Michigan students.

[Anonymous User]

Anything from Arnold porter dc?

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Did you bid on firms in competitive markets? Or firms with small SA classes? Even if your GPA is in the wheelhouse of such firms, I'd say they're almost harder to land than firms with big classes, depending on the firm.

I say this because it might not be bad interviewing causing your CB yield, in which case you should be more confident for the ones you do have.

It was mostly NY. Couple of Chicago offices and couple of international ones. I am international, so it's hard for me to justify wanting to work in other markets, although I wouldn't care. Class sizes were fair, I think. Have to go back and check to make sure.

I mean, I know I should be happy with what I have. Couple of my friends don't have any because of their gpa. They are great interviewees, much better than me. Just that a flood of rejections make me want to bash my head on something hard.

Are cbs really about being yourself and hoping that you fit in with the firm? I was actually selling myself hard at EIW and might have come off as a little intense. Maybe I should stop that.

Still waiting to hear from some firms. Freshfields cb is bad news though for me. One firm told me they would consider me next summer, so I guess I have that going for me.

BuckinghamB is completely right I think. Also I think you should focus on being normal, yourself, and calm. I did a similar thing (sold myself too hard, also practiced and used canned answers) and I fell flat on my face. Ever since then I just try to be myself and answer questions as close to honestly as I think prudent and I've been much more successful.

Consider mass mailing more firms, maybe especially other markets--you're international which may make it slightly easier in that you don't have a "home" US market but I'm not sure. And again those 3 cbs are great opportunities. It means they liked you. Be yourself.

Oops totally didn't mean to be anon: oblig.lawl.ref

Yeah, I definitely think I cost myself some interviews with my intensity. I also think it is no coincidence that my cbs are from firms where I went to their receptions. I think I make a better impression when the conversation is free-flowing without pressure.

Thanks for the advice. I got the rest of my rejections. Have to bank on the 3 and hope for the better. Will keep mass mailing, although nothing yet.

Great! Don't stress it too much. It's still not that late in the MM game. I got my firm via MM after striking out--and it's a pretty great firm. Just make sure after 2-3 weeks you follow up with your MMs. That got me a couple interviews.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Thank you woldverine for the advice! I appreciate that you are taking the time to give back to us current Michigan students.

[woldverine]

Thank you woldverine for the advice! I appreciate that you are taking the time to give back to us current Michigan students.

No problem. You can PM me if you have a specific question you don't want answered publicly. It seems like there's a lot of stress on here that may not be that helpful. To some extent, your resume and GPA is what it is. Don't worry about it, don't fight against it, don't be defensive.

If you get a callback, you have passed that initial threshold test. At that point, it's about being a normal person who comes across well, is genuinely interested in the firm and the people, and seems like someone who has a good attitude and works hard. Believe it or not, for the close cases, I do review writing samples. This year, I reshuffled my picks based on reviewing those on the plane.

After reviewing a couple pages on this forum, I have a comment about selling a "pitch" or "story." I don't think that's necessary, and if you try too hard, it'll show. That said, I do think there's some value in having a handful of things you'd like to talk about and trying to work those things in if it's natural and appropriate (e.g., my wife lives in the area so I have connections here, I was a physics professor before law school, I am really technically-savvy, I really improved my writing this summer working for Judge so and so, I just published a note that relates to work your firm does, etc.). They shouldn't be canned answers, but just things that you think work in your favor and you'd like to discuss if you can find a way.

[woldverine]

Did you bid on firms in competitive markets? Or firms with small SA classes? Even if your GPA is in the wheelhouse of such firms, I'd say they're almost harder to land than firms with big classes, depending on the firm.

I say this because it might not be bad interviewing causing your CB yield, in which case you should be more confident for the ones you do have.

It was mostly NY. Couple of Chicago offices and couple of international ones. I am international, so it's hard for me to justify wanting to work in other markets, although I wouldn't care. Class sizes were fair, I think. Have to go back and check to make sure.

I mean, I know I should be happy with what I have. Couple of my friends don't have any because of their gpa. They are great interviewees, much better than me. Just that a flood of rejections make me want to bash my head on something hard.

Are cbs really about being yourself and hoping that you fit in with the firm? I was actually selling myself hard at EIW and might have come off as a little intense. Maybe I should stop that.

Still waiting to hear from some firms. Freshfields cb is bad news though for me. One firm told me they would consider me next summer, so I guess I have that going for me.

BuckinghamB is completely right I think. Also I think you should focus on being normal, yourself, and calm. I did a similar thing (sold myself too hard, also practiced and used canned answers) and I fell flat on my face. Ever since then I just try to be myself and answer questions as close to honestly as I think prudent and I've been much more successful.

Consider mass mailing more firms, maybe especially other markets--you're international which may make it slightly easier in that you don't have a "home" US market but I'm not sure. And again those 3 cbs are great opportunities. It means they liked you. Be yourself.

Oops totally didn't mean to be anon: oblig.lawl.ref

Yeah, I definitely think I cost myself some interviews with my intensity. I also think it is no coincidence that my cbs are from firms where I went to their receptions. I think I make a better impression when the conversation is free-flowing without pressure.

Thanks for the advice. I got the rest of my rejections. Have to bank on the 3 and hope for the better. Will keep mass mailing, although nothing yet.

Channel your angst into preparation. Read bios, read up on what the interviewers' practices are, read about the firm. Just be well-prepared and don't worry about it.

Second, at this moment, stop competing with your classmates. [EDIT: I'm not saying that you are... didn't mean it to come off that way... this is general advice.] That competition is over (f there ever was one, and I don't think that's true either). Work together. Ask people how their interviews went. Show a genuine interest in people. You're on the same team -- it's best for all of us that UM grads get good jobs.

Third, on the interview, always take into account your audience. Connect with the interviewer. If it's a second year associate, you're not going to get anywhere trying to impress them with your credentials. They don't care. They want to know if you're going to be a jerk or difficult to work with. Ask them about their hobbies. Don't ask them questions about the future of the firm... they have no idea. If it's the hiring partner, a little different story. You might want to have different questions that express more interest in the firm, more interest in their practice area. You may want to work in more about how your summer was, what you learned, etc. I always love when candidates have interesting legal questions they answered (don't bore them with dull law, but if you addressed an interesting case, I dig that).

The good news is, you will repeat these skills again and again when you start on the job. Half law is just connecting with people (judges, clients, opposing counsel, deponents, etc.). The good news is that I've found UM grads are usually pretty naturally skilled at this, so you've got a leg up.

[Anonymous User]

Which offices of Paul Hastings?

[Anonymous User]

there's a lot of stress on here that may not be that helpful

TLS in a fuckin nutshell my friend.

[Anonymous User]

So what is the consensus, are most of the CB's from last Thur. and Fri. screeners already out?

[Anonymous User]

So what is the consensus, are most of the CB's from last Thur. and Fri. screeners already out?

Depends on the market and firm. For smaller markets, it could take a little while longer. For bigger markets/firms, they are most likely all out. Although I did get one late last night from a Thursday interview.

[Anonymous User]

So what is the consensus, are most of the CB's from last Thur. and Fri. screeners already out?

All but one of mine are out (out of 12). I haven't got many dings, I don't know if some firms have a waitlist or what, depending on who accepts callbacks, but I think most of those are lost causes.

So what is the consensus, are most of the CB's from last Thur. and Fri. screeners already out?

Depends on the market and firm. For smaller markets, it could take a little while longer. For bigger markets/firms, they are most likely all out. Although I did get one late last night from a Thursday interview.

Yes, but it seemed those days were mostly NY and Chi big law (that's what I mostly bid on at least).

[Anonymous User]

So what is the consensus, are most of the CB's from last Thur. and Fri. screeners already out?

Depends on the market and firm. For smaller markets, it could take a little while longer. For bigger markets/firms, they are most likely all out. Although I did get one late last night from a Thursday interview.

Congrats! I am sure hoping there are a couple from last week still hanging out there. One all but told me I would be receiving a CB, nothing yet ... surprisingly I haven't received any dings yet either...

[Anonymous User]

Add Covington & Burling

[Anonymous User]

Add Covington & Burling

If you interviewed w/ Covington I'm guessing you interviewed with W&C as well? Any word yet?