Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results Forum

[Anonymous User]

So I know it's come up in a few of the posts here, but does anyone actually know anything about Armstrong Teasdale in St. Louis?

Yeah, they had a whopping class size of 2 last summer and both SA's were from SLU.

[beachbum]

So I know it's come up in a few of the posts here, but does anyone actually know anything about Armstrong Teasdale in St. Louis?

Yeah, they had a whopping class size of 2 last summer and both SA's were from SLU.

Wait, so they actually reduced their summer program from 2010? Fuck me.

[Anonymous User]

So I know it's come up in a few of the posts here, but does anyone actually know anything about Armstrong Teasdale in St. Louis?

Yeah, they had a whopping class size of 2 last summer and both SA's were from SLU.

That's weird. I wonder why they reported to NALP they were looking for 5 2Ls and 3 1Ls in 2011. I've found that most firms usually hit their expectations.

[romothesavior]

1 CB but otherwise all dings. And I'm expecting the CB to be a ding. I feel like if I were 20-25% higher in terms of my class rank, I would have gotten several CB's in my home market and would have an offer by now.. If one misses out on the big firms in this market, one finds a steep drop-off from big firms to firms of 10 or so people.. firms that don't have tons of work and don't have structured programs for associates or clerks.

Yes, typically a 20-25% difference in class rank makes a difference. Good observation.

But in all seriousness, there are likely some mid-sized firms (30-60) still hiring. I know one here in STL that is well regarded that won't hire until February. These types of firms exist in every market. They generally hire later than othrt firms, so start reaching out now if you haven't already.

[Anonymous User]

What do you think of HB/BC exit options? Do you think they would translate well in a later lateral move to another midwest city (Chicago/KC/Milwaukee)?

Sorry, just saw this.

I don't know a TON about exit options but the associates I know at BC have said that headhunters started calling them near the beginning of their second year. In that regard, it's similar to most V100 firms: The name itself is a brand that can open a few doors for you. Beyond that, I think it is practice group and luck specific. Obviously, certain practice groups naturally open doors (labor/employment comes to mind) and you might get lucky and get to know a client really well because a partner is out of town...etc.

Beyond that, I think BC's exit options are likely better than HB's because the name carries farther and, even within the St. Louis market, they're the principal outside counsel for many large companies. What I mean by that is this (and this is coming from people within the firms, not just my mind): Most large companies spread their legal work around a number of firms. For instance, in St. Louis most of the largest 5 firms (Bryan Cave, Husch, Armstrong Teasdale, Greensfelder, Thompson Coburn) will do work for Boeing. Part of that is to create conflicts so that if Boeing has a local problem, whoever wants to sue them is stopped from using the biggest/best firms in the city. Though that's a fairly common practice, there is one firm that gets the BULK of their work (be it in pure volume or the most important cases) and that firm, for Boeing, is Bryan Cave. I don't think that's the exception, either: According to many people I've spoken with (at BC and other firms), BC is the principal outside counsel for many major local companies. This obviously has an impact on BC lawyers' ability to jump in house.

I can't speak much about other markets. I think you have to go with name recognition and BC is the only V100 firm on that list. Of course, is one of the other places also has a huge office/institutional client in the market, the brand will take you farther there.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear anything from Greenebaum?

+1

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear anything from Greenebaum?

+1

Pure silence

[Anonymous User]

So I know it's come up in a few of the posts here, but does anyone actually know anything about Armstrong Teasdale in St. Louis?

Yeah, they had a whopping class size of 2 last summer and both SA's were from SLU.

That's weird. I wonder why they reported to NALP they were looking for 5 2Ls and 3 1Ls in 2011. I've found that most firms usually hit their expectations.

Sorry, I was talking about their St. Louis office in 2010. I haven't heard if they hit their target for 2011.

[Anonymous User]

So I know it's come up in a few of the posts here, but does anyone actually know anything about Armstrong Teasdale in St. Louis?

Yeah, they had a whopping class size of 2 last summer and both SA's were from SLU.

That's weird. I wonder why they reported to NALP they were looking for 5 2Ls and 3 1Ls in 2011. I've found that most firms usually hit their expectations.

Sorry, I was talking about their St. Louis office in 2010. I haven't heard if they hit their target for 2011.

They're only hiring 2 2L's for this summer because most (or all) of their 1L SAs are coming back.

[beachbum]

They're only hiring 2 2L's for this summer because most (or all) of their 1L SAs are coming back.

Can you provide any further info on their 1L hiring (how many, who they look for, etc.)? Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

They're only hiring 2 2L's for this summer because most (or all) of their 1L SAs are coming back.

Can you provide any further info on their 1L hiring (how many, who they look for, etc.)? Thanks.

I can't speak too specifically, but I know that one of the most important things to all St. Louis firms in 1L hiring are connections. I have had a number of conversation with people at various firms who have said that they are more likely to take a St. Louis lifer at SLU than a top-ranked person from an out of state school because they feel like they're a safer bet. If you're from St. Louis and you left, be prepared to talk about why you left if you want to come back. If you're not from St. Louis and you don't go to school here, you need to have COMPELLING reasons to be in St. Louis.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, they had a whopping class size of 2 last summer and both SA's were from SLU.

That's weird. I wonder why they reported to NALP they were looking for 5 2Ls and 3 1Ls in 2011. I've found that most firms usually hit their expectations.

Sorry, I was talking about their St. Louis office in 2010. I haven't heard if they hit their target for 2011.

Those numbers were their expectations for this past summer (2011) that they reported to nalp last spring. When you say last summer do you mean 2011? If so, I'm saying it's weird/shady that they'd report wanting 8 total SAs and only hire 3.

[beachbum]

They're only hiring 2 2L's for this summer because most (or all) of their 1L SAs are coming back.

Can you provide any further info on their 1L hiring (how many, who they look for, etc.)? Thanks.

I can't speak too specifically, but I know that one of the most important things to all St. Louis firms in 1L hiring are connections. I have had a number of conversation with people at various firms who have said that they are more likely to take a St. Louis lifer at SLU than a top-ranked person from an out of state school because they feel like they're a safer bet. If you're from St. Louis and you left, be prepared to talk about why you left if you want to come back. If you're not from St. Louis and you don't go to school here, you need to have COMPELLING reasons to be in St. Louis.

Awesome, thanks. I'm a St. Louis lifer (this is my first time living outside the city), so hopefully my decision to attend law school elsewhere won't be held against me.

[Anonymous User]

Awesome, thanks. I'm a St. Louis lifer (this is my first time living outside the city), so hopefully my decision to attend law school elsewhere won't be held against me.

Assuming your grades are good, I'd think you'll be okay. Just get back here over winter break and network like crazy to get interviews scheduled while you'll be in town. I think it's important to make sure that you get back here to do it and don't expect firms to foot the bill for you to travel back. Connections are so important here that, if yours are real, you should be able to say that you will be here anyway and would love to stop in. For example, though I'm from out of town, I declined the firms' offers for hotels during my CBs because I was going to stay with family. Sure, I could have taken the hotel and it would have been nice and it likely wouldn't have made a difference, but I wanted everyone at every level at the firm to know that I had ties and was serious about the market.

You'll probably be asked about your decision to leave for school, but I don't think it'll be a big deal. Just preempt the question by saying "Yo, I love St. Louis but Duke was a great opportunity. I always knew I wanted to get back to St. Louis, though." and move on.

[Anonymous User]

Awesome, thanks. I'm a St. Louis lifer (this is my first time living outside the city), so hopefully my decision to attend law school elsewhere won't be held against me.

Assuming your grades are good, I'd think you'll be okay. Just get back here over winter break and network like crazy to get interviews scheduled while you'll be in town. I think it's important to make sure that you get back here to do it and don't expect firms to foot the bill for you to travel back. Connections are so important here that, if yours are real, you should be able to say that you will be here anyway and would love to stop in. For example, though I'm from out of town, I declined the firms' offers for hotels during my CBs because I was going to stay with family. Sure, I could have taken the hotel and it would have been nice and it likely wouldn't have made a difference, but I wanted everyone at every level at the firm to know that I had ties and was serious about the market.

You'll probably be asked about your decision to leave for school, but I don't think it'll be a big deal. Just preempt the question by saying "Yo, I love St. Louis but Duke was a great opportunity. I always knew I wanted to get back to St. Louis, though." and move on.

Agree with this. I'm a St. Louis lifer going to school elsewhere, and the single most important things I made sure to put in every cover letter I sent to AT and the like was that 1) I'm from St. Louis and 2) I would take care of the travel on my own.

I've spoken with a number of attorneys, and I don't get the impression that attending school elsewhere is that big of a deal. The attorneys I've spoken with have been very respective of the "I wanted to live in xyz for a few years just to gain some experience/a different perspective..." You definitely need to be upfront with your ties though because not going to SLU/WashU costs you that initial face time with the firms (ie screeners). I'm fortunate that I know a lot of people, but it's still been tough sledding. (Good grades, mediocre school). Plus none of the big firms are hiring that many kids in the first place.

Bottom line: do not be shy at all in your cover letters, etc. about your ties to St. Louis, and grades will still matter a good bit because law firm hiring is still law firm hiring.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with this. I'm a St. Louis lifer going to school elsewhere, and the single most important things I made sure to put in every cover letter I sent to AT and the like was that 1) I'm from St. Louis and 2) I would take care of the travel on my own.

I've spoken with a number of attorneys, and I don't get the impression that attending school elsewhere is that big of a deal. The attorneys I've spoken with have been very respective of the "I wanted to live in xyz for a few years just to gain some experience/a different perspective..." You definitely need to be upfront with your ties though because not going to SLU/WashU costs you that initial face time with the firms (ie screeners). I'm fortunate that I know a lot of people, but it's still been tough sledding. (Good grades, mediocre school). Plus none of the big firms are hiring that many kids in the first place.

Bottom line: do not be shy at all in your cover letters, etc. about your ties to St. Louis, and grades will still matter a good bit because law firm hiring is still law firm hiring.

Definitely. What firm are you ending up at this summer?

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, they had a whopping class size of 2 last summer and both SA's were from SLU.

That's weird. I wonder why they reported to NALP they were looking for 5 2Ls and 3 1Ls in 2011. I've found that most firms usually hit their expectations.

Sorry, I was talking about their St. Louis office in 2010. I haven't heard if they hit their target for 2011.

Those numbers were their expectations for this past summer (2011) that they reported to nalp last spring. When you say last summer do you mean 2011? If so, I'm saying it's weird/shady that they'd report wanting 8 total SAs and only hire 3.

No, I meant 2010. But someone above posted that they're only hiring 2 SLs for 2012, because the rest of them have been filled by 1L SAs returning.

[minnbills]

Has anyone tried for in-house/compliance positions? Or heard of anyone doing this?

[beachbum]

Awesome, thanks. I'm a St. Louis lifer (this is my first time living outside the city), so hopefully my decision to attend law school elsewhere won't be held against me.

Assuming your grades are good, I'd think you'll be okay. Just get back here over winter break and network like crazy to get interviews scheduled while you'll be in town. I think it's important to make sure that you get back here to do it and don't expect firms to foot the bill for you to travel back. Connections are so important here that, if yours are real, you should be able to say that you will be here anyway and would love to stop in. For example, though I'm from out of town, I declined the firms' offers for hotels during my CBs because I was going to stay with family. Sure, I could have taken the hotel and it would have been nice and it likely wouldn't have made a difference, but I wanted everyone at every level at the firm to know that I had ties and was serious about the market.

You'll probably be asked about your decision to leave for school, but I don't think it'll be a big deal. Just preempt the question by saying "Yo, I love St. Louis but Duke was a great opportunity. I always knew I wanted to get back to St. Louis, though." and move on.

Agree with this. I'm a St. Louis lifer going to school elsewhere, and the single most important things I made sure to put in every cover letter I sent to AT and the like was that 1) I'm from St. Louis and 2) I would take care of the travel on my own.

I've spoken with a number of attorneys, and I don't get the impression that attending school elsewhere is that big of a deal. The attorneys I've spoken with have been very respective of the "I wanted to live in xyz for a few years just to gain some experience/a different perspective..." You definitely need to be upfront with your ties though because not going to SLU/WashU costs you that initial face time with the firms (ie screeners). I'm fortunate that I know a lot of people, but it's still been tough sledding. (Good grades, mediocre school). Plus none of the big firms are hiring that many kids in the first place.

Bottom line: do not be shy at all in your cover letters, etc. about your ties to St. Louis, and grades will still matter a good bit because law firm hiring is still law firm hiring.

Appreciate the advice (to all who have replied). My ties are solid (native St. Louisan, lots of family in the area, attended a local school for undergrad), and I'm committed to returning to the city (assuming the opportunity presents itself). I'll be coming back for winter break, so hopefully I can pull a few interviews then. Would love to get a 1L SA with one of the local firms.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone tried for in-house/compliance positions? Or heard of anyone doing this?

it's fairly rare to get that right out dude.

[Anonymous User]

.

[blurbz]

Has anyone tried for in-house/compliance positions? Or heard of anyone doing this?

I know there's an insurance company that interviewed on campus but I don't know that I'd count that job as "in house" the way people talk about in house on this site.

Most corporations don't hire freshly minted JDs for in house jobs, even compliance jobs. They prefer someone who has been trained a little bit by a firm and, likely, someone who they've worked with already through that firm.

[Anonymous User]

Any word from Greenebaum?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear anything from Shook, Hardy and Bacon? Callbacks? Offers? Rejections?

[Anonymous User]

I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I've failed this process. No matter how much I practice and no matter how much advice I get from career services, I must just utterly suck at interviewing. Top 5%, LR.