Midwest T25s OCI discussion/results Forum

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on work life at Bryan Cave/Husch in StL v. a V40-70 in Chicago? Will the St. Louis work/life be slightly better, or no?

I have a family friend who is a senior partner at a V40-50 in Chicago and she talked me into one of Bryan Cave/Husch St. Louis over her firm. She said that while people don't make as much in St. Louis, her friends at BC/HB have more control over their lives than she does. She also called around for me to ask about associate life and found the answer is basically the same: They work hard, but it's still significantly less pressure than the cut-throat life in Chicago biglaw.

That's not to say that other posters on this board are wrong in saying that HB/BC have worse work/life balances than other St. Louis firms. I think it's clear that St. Louis is a pretty lifestyle oriented city and those two are on the end of the spectrum closest to Chicago biglaw, but they're certainly not at the same level as Chicago biglaw. For me, it's the happy middle-ground.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on work life at Bryan Cave/Husch in StL v. a V40-70 in Chicago? Will the St. Louis work/life be slightly better, or no?

I have a family friend who is a senior partner at a V40-50 in Chicago and she talked me into one of Bryan Cave/Husch St. Louis over her firm. She said that while people don't make as much in St. Louis, her friends at BC/HB have more control over their lives than she does. She also called around for me to ask about associate life and found the answer is basically the same: They work hard, but it's still significantly less pressure than the cut-throat life in Chicago biglaw.

That's not to say that other posters on this board are wrong in saying that HB/BC have worse work/life balances than other St. Louis firms. I think it's clear that St. Louis is a pretty lifestyle oriented city and those two are on the end of the spectrum closest to Chicago biglaw, but they're certainly not at the same level as Chicago biglaw. For me, it's the happy middle-ground.

Assume someone has options at Husch and Bryan Cave, but also has options at some of the other big St. Louis / Kansas City firms (think Armstrong Teasdale, Lewis Rice, Thompson Coburn, Shook Hardy & Bacon, Stinson Morrison). It seems most people indicate that at the very least Bryan Cave and Husch work you a little bit harder than the rest. So what is the advantage of going with Bryan Cave or Husch? Is it the better name recognition and hence better exit options? I know Bryan Cave does pay a little bit more than the other big firms, but is that the only advantage?

If the advantage is only the name + a little bit more pay, isn't there at least a case to be made about going with some of the other big firms?

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on work life at Bryan Cave/Husch in StL v. a V40-70 in Chicago? Will the St. Louis work/life be slightly better, or no?

I have a family friend who is a senior partner at a V40-50 in Chicago and she talked me into one of Bryan Cave/Husch St. Louis over her firm. She said that while people don't make as much in St. Louis, her friends at BC/HB have more control over their lives than she does. She also called around for me to ask about associate life and found the answer is basically the same: They work hard, but it's still significantly less pressure than the cut-throat life in Chicago biglaw.

That's not to say that other posters on this board are wrong in saying that HB/BC have worse work/life balances than other St. Louis firms. I think it's clear that St. Louis is a pretty lifestyle oriented city and those two are on the end of the spectrum closest to Chicago biglaw, but they're certainly not at the same level as Chicago biglaw. For me, it's the happy middle-ground.

Assume someone has options at Husch and Bryan Cave, but also has options at some of the other big St. Louis / Kansas City firms (think Armstrong Teasdale, Lewis Rice, Thompson Coburn, Shook Hardy & Bacon, Stinson Morrison). It seems most people indicate that at the very least Bryan Cave and Husch work you a little bit harder than the rest. So what is the advantage of going with Bryan Cave or Husch? Is it the better name recognition and hence better exit options? I know Bryan Cave does pay a little bit more than the other big firms, but is that the only advantage?

If the advantage is only the name + a little bit more pay, isn't there at least a case to be made about going with some of the other big firms?

Totally. There's a great case to be made for any of the larger St. Louis firms over BC/HB. BC is a V100 firm, though, and has about 1000 attorneys worldwide. Their brand is just more prestigious than the others. HB isn't as big/prestigious as BC, but it's still a step above the others in the midwest. BC pays 125 (In all fairness, so does Lewis Rice) while the other firms are at 100-110. That's not a huge difference, but it's not insignificant, either.

For me, if it's BC v the other firms, I'm going to take BC because of the name recognition/prestige/extra money/hours that aren't as bad as Chicago. If it's HB v the other firms, I'd probably take one of the others (Armstrong/Thompson Coburn/etc) because HB doesn't pay any more than they do.

But the short answer is "Yes." There are totally good reasons to take one of the others.

For me, though, I think the extra 15k starting plus the prestige is worth working somewhere between the more relaxed St. Louis firms and the ultra-competitive Chicago firms.

[Anonymous User]

Gotcha thanks a lot. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the St. Louis market. What are your thoughts on Lewis Rice? I did a callback there and know some people from within the firm and was EXTREMELY impressed.

Also I know they don't have an office in St. Louis, but what do you think about Shook Hardy and Bacon in Kansas City? A notch down from Bryan Cave in the name recognition department? Any ideas on the work/life balance there?

[Anonymous User]

Not the knowledgeable d00d above, but I do know a bit about STL biglaw. FWIW, friend of a friend first year at HB billed 300 in January. Don't know if that was a choice or if she felt like she had to or something, but good God that's a lot of hours either way. Lewis Rice seemed chill as hell at that reception they had for WUSTLers last year. Low billable requirement + good pay + low leverage (read: good partnership prospects) = I'd take 'em, personally. Just a WAG based on what I know about law firms, but there might be more of a focus on biz development once you hit senior associate than at BC, since BC's gonna have its own big institutional clients.

[Anonymous User]

Gotcha thanks a lot. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the St. Louis market. What are your thoughts on Lewis Rice? I did a callback there and know some people from within the firm and was EXTREMELY impressed.

Also I know they don't have an office in St. Louis, but what do you think about Shook Hardy and Bacon in Kansas City? A notch down from Bryan Cave in the name recognition department? Any ideas on the work/life balance there?

No problem. I focused my search on St. Louis so I've learned a lot about the market.

I like Lewis Rice. I had a callback their as a 1L and then again this fall. I thought everyone I met was very bright and clearly enjoyed their work. They were mentioned in an article in the St. Louis Business Journal a few months back about associate pay. They were the only firm that immediately matched Bryan Cave's first year salary and the managing partner of Lewis Rice said something about wanting to attract the best people and take care of them--It impressed me. I only have two negatives about the place, and they may be limited to my own experiences:

1. The recruiting department always struck me as disorganized. I don't want to out myself, but I was not impressed with how they communicate; and

2. As I said, I had two callbacks at Lewis Rice. Over the course of both of them I probably met with approximately 12 different attorneys. None of them were female and none of them were minorities. Now, I'm a white male, but that still struck me as extremely odd. I've gone on over 10 callbacks in St. Louis, Chicago and Indy and Lewis Rice is the only place where I met with NO female attorneys. Might have just been a fluke schedule, though...Take that with a grain of salt.

I have no personal experience with Shook Hardy and Bacon. They have fewer than half the number of attorneys worldwide than does Bryan Cave (but that's not an incredibly important metric). They are not a V100 firm, but it looks like they do some interesting things. Glancing at their structure, it looks like their satellite offices are a little more specialized than are Bryan Cave's, but that's not a positive or a negative: just a difference. Looks like a solid enough firm. I guess I'd say BC has more prestige due to size/vault ranking/greater national and international reach, but I don't feel quite right about passing judgement on a firm I know so little about, so don't take my word for it!

[Anonymous User]

Gotcha thanks a lot. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the St. Louis market. What are your thoughts on Lewis Rice? I did a callback there and know some people from within the firm and was EXTREMELY impressed.

Also I know they don't have an office in St. Louis, but what do you think about Shook Hardy and Bacon in Kansas City? A notch down from Bryan Cave in the name recognition department? Any ideas on the work/life balance there?

No problem. I focused my search on St. Louis so I've learned a lot about the market.

I like Lewis Rice. I had a callback their as a 1L and then again this fall. I thought everyone I met was very bright and clearly enjoyed their work. They were mentioned in an article in the St. Louis Business Journal a few months back about associate pay. They were the only firm that immediately matched Bryan Cave's first year salary and the managing partner of Lewis Rice said something about wanting to attract the best people and take care of them--It impressed me. I only have two negatives about the place, and they may be limited to my own experiences:

1. The recruiting department always struck me as disorganized. I don't want to out myself, but I was not impressed with how they communicate; and

2. As I said, I had two callbacks at Lewis Rice. Over the course of both of them I probably met with approximately 12 different attorneys. None of them were female and none of them were minorities. Now, I'm a white male, but that still struck me as extremely odd. I've gone on over 10 callbacks in St. Louis, Chicago and Indy and Lewis Rice is the only place where I met with NO female attorneys. Might have just been a fluke schedule, though...Take that with a grain of salt.

I have no personal experience with Shook Hardy and Bacon. They have fewer than half the number of attorneys worldwide than does Bryan Cave (but that's not an incredibly important metric). They are not a V100 firm, but it looks like they do some interesting things. Glancing at their structure, it looks like their satellite offices are a little more specialized than are Bryan Cave's, but that's not a positive or a negative: just a difference. Looks like a solid enough firm. I guess I'd say BC has more prestige due to size/vault ranking/greater national and international reach, but I don't feel quite right about passing judgement on a firm I know so little about, so don't take my word for it!

Interesting observations. Referencing that same St. Louis Business Journal Article, there seems to be some discussion about Bryan Cave deferring associates in both 2009 and 2010. Do you think that will be a concern going forward? I know HB took the position that part of the reason they aren't raising salaries was so they could be sure to start their associates on time.

[Anonymous User]

@Wustl - Greensfelder offer yesterday

Congrats! Labor or corporate?

+1

Labor/Employment. Going to accept. Greensfelder doesn't get as much notice on the boards as does the other large STL firms, but I was extremely impressed with the firm and am really looking forward to working there. Also - can't beat the amazing views looking into Busch Stadium.

[Anonymous User]

Gotcha thanks a lot. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the St. Louis market. What are your thoughts on Lewis Rice? I did a callback there and know some people from within the firm and was EXTREMELY impressed.

Also I know they don't have an office in St. Louis, but what do you think about Shook Hardy and Bacon in Kansas City? A notch down from Bryan Cave in the name recognition department? Any ideas on the work/life balance there?

No problem. I focused my search on St. Louis so I've learned a lot about the market.

I like Lewis Rice. I had a callback their as a 1L and then again this fall. I thought everyone I met was very bright and clearly enjoyed their work. They were mentioned in an article in the St. Louis Business Journal a few months back about associate pay. They were the only firm that immediately matched Bryan Cave's first year salary and the managing partner of Lewis Rice said something about wanting to attract the best people and take care of them--It impressed me. I only have two negatives about the place, and they may be limited to my own experiences:

1. The recruiting department always struck me as disorganized. I don't want to out myself, but I was not impressed with how they communicate; and

2. As I said, I had two callbacks at Lewis Rice. Over the course of both of them I probably met with approximately 12 different attorneys. None of them were female and none of them were minorities. Now, I'm a white male, but that still struck me as extremely odd. I've gone on over 10 callbacks in St. Louis, Chicago and Indy and Lewis Rice is the only place where I met with NO female attorneys. Might have just been a fluke schedule, though...Take that with a grain of salt.

I have no personal experience with Shook Hardy and Bacon. They have fewer than half the number of attorneys worldwide than does Bryan Cave (but that's not an incredibly important metric). They are not a V100 firm, but it looks like they do some interesting things. Glancing at their structure, it looks like their satellite offices are a little more specialized than are Bryan Cave's, but that's not a positive or a negative: just a difference. Looks like a solid enough firm. I guess I'd say BC has more prestige due to size/vault ranking/greater national and international reach, but I don't feel quite right about passing judgement on a firm I know so little about, so don't take my word for it!

Interesting observations. Referencing that same St. Louis Business Journal Article, there seems to be some discussion about Bryan Cave deferring associates in both 2009 and 2010. Do you think that will be a concern going forward? I know HB took the position that part of the reason they aren't raising salaries was so they could be sure to start their associates on time.

**useful info was here**

[Anonymous User]

Thanks you can delete if you want to

[Anonymous User]

@Wustl - Greensfelder offer yesterday

Congrats! Labor or corporate?

+1

Labor/Employment. Going to accept. Greensfelder doesn't get as much notice on the boards as does the other large STL firms, but I was extremely impressed with the firm and am really looking forward to working there. Also - can't beat the amazing views looking into Busch Stadium.

Agreed. Pissed I got dinged. $110k in STL is pretty sweet no matter which way you slice it, and only 1850 billables...

[beachbum]

Just want to thank everyone for their info on the St. Louis market/firms. I'll be aiming for St. Louis when the time comes (probably as a 1L), and discussions like these are always very helpful.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed. Pissed I got dinged. $110k in STL is pretty sweet no matter which way you slice it, and only 1850 billables...[/quote]




How'd you find out? Did they send out the mailings yet?

[Anonymous User]

Agreed. Pissed I got dinged. $110k in STL is pretty sweet no matter which way you slice it, and only 1850 billables...

How'd you find out? Did they send out the mailings yet?[/quote]



Would be interested in this as well. Waiting to hear after my CB for one of the corp spots.

And congrats to the labor anon above.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on work life at Bryan Cave/Husch in StL v. a V40-70 in Chicago? Will the St. Louis work/life be slightly better, or no?

I have a family friend who is a senior partner at a V40-50 in Chicago and she talked me into one of Bryan Cave/Husch St. Louis over her firm. She said that while people don't make as much in St. Louis, her friends at BC/HB have more control over their lives than she does. She also called around for me to ask about associate life and found the answer is basically the same: They work hard, but it's still significantly less pressure than the cut-throat life in Chicago biglaw.

That's not to say that other posters on this board are wrong in saying that HB/BC have worse work/life balances than other St. Louis firms. I think it's clear that St. Louis is a pretty lifestyle oriented city and those two are on the end of the spectrum closest to Chicago biglaw, but they're certainly not at the same level as Chicago biglaw. For me, it's the happy middle-ground.

What do you think of HB/BC exit options? Do you think they would translate well in a later lateral move to another midwest city (Chicago/KC/Milwaukee)?

[Anonymous User]

I have no personal experience with Shook Hardy and Bacon. They have fewer than half the number of attorneys worldwide than does Bryan Cave (but that's not an incredibly important metric). They are not a V100 firm, but it looks like they do some interesting things. Glancing at their structure, it looks like their satellite offices are a little more specialized than are Bryan Cave's, but that's not a positive or a negative: just a difference. Looks like a solid enough firm. I guess I'd say BC has more prestige due to size/vault ranking/greater national and international reach, but I don't feel quite right about passing judgement on a firm I know so little about, so don't take my word for it!

Comparing BC to SHB really depends on practice area. SHB is almost all litigation, and that practice is very national/international and very well respected. I'd put their lit practice over BC, no doubt, in clients, reputation, prestige, and everything else. I'd bet that their absence on the V100 is largely due to how heavily transactional the prestige rankings are. For that practice, BC wins hands down.

If you're looking at SHB's KC office, the total number of attorneys at either firm is meaningless, as that office has substantially more attorneys than any BC office. I agree that SHB's small satellite offices should be looked at differently than BC's sizable satellite offices. BC's presence in markets where SHB doesn't have offices will also increase name recognition there, so if you think you might eventually want to be in one of those areas you should keep that in mind.

SHB also wins for work/life balance. They've been consistently ranked in the top 5 on Vault in the "hours" category, and for general quality of life. They're also pretty high up for diversity, if that matters to you. If you do CBs at both I think you'll notice a significant difference in firm culture, and if you do your research and talk to associates it shouldn't be too hard to tell. It's notable that SHB didn't do deferrals or no-offers throughout the recession, and still had PPP above $1 million (which is crazy for Missouri). Not knocking firms that did what they felt they had to do, but doing no deferrals ITE stands out to me.

Both great places to work, for sure, but very different firms. It really depends on what you want to do.

Also, IIRC Lewis Rice didn't "immediately" match BC's salary bump - it took a year or two. Not to split hairs, just something I noticed.

[Anonymous User]

Gotcha thanks a lot. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the St. Louis market. What are your thoughts on Lewis Rice? I did a callback there and know some people from within the firm and was EXTREMELY impressed.

Also I know they don't have an office in St. Louis, but what do you think about Shook Hardy and Bacon in Kansas City? A notch down from Bryan Cave in the name recognition department? Any ideas on the work/life balance there?

No problem. I focused my search on St. Louis so I've learned a lot about the market.

I like Lewis Rice. I had a callback their as a 1L and then again this fall. I thought everyone I met was very bright and clearly enjoyed their work. They were mentioned in an article in the St. Louis Business Journal a few months back about associate pay. They were the only firm that immediately matched Bryan Cave's first year salary and the managing partner of Lewis Rice said something about wanting to attract the best people and take care of them--It impressed me. I only have two negatives about the place, and they may be limited to my own experiences:

1. The recruiting department always struck me as disorganized. I don't want to out myself, but I was not impressed with how they communicate; and

2. As I said, I had two callbacks at Lewis Rice. Over the course of both of them I probably met with approximately 12 different attorneys. None of them were female and none of them were minorities. Now, I'm a white male, but that still struck me as extremely odd. I've gone on over 10 callbacks in St. Louis, Chicago and Indy and Lewis Rice is the only place where I met with NO female attorneys. Might have just been a fluke schedule, though...Take that with a grain of salt.

I have no personal experience with Shook Hardy and Bacon. They have fewer than half the number of attorneys worldwide than does Bryan Cave (but that's not an incredibly important metric). They are not a V100 firm, but it looks like they do some interesting things. Glancing at their structure, it looks like their satellite offices are a little more specialized than are Bryan Cave's, but that's not a positive or a negative: just a difference. Looks like a solid enough firm. I guess I'd say BC has more prestige due to size/vault ranking/greater national and international reach, but I don't feel quite right about passing judgement on a firm I know so little about, so don't take my word for it!

I've heard Shook is the best firm to work for in STL or KC. That's the word from a few friends at Wash U and U Kansas.

[Anonymous User]

I have no personal experience with Shook Hardy and Bacon. They have fewer than half the number of attorneys worldwide than does Bryan Cave (but that's not an incredibly important metric). They are not a V100 firm, but it looks like they do some interesting things. Glancing at their structure, it looks like their satellite offices are a little more specialized than are Bryan Cave's, but that's not a positive or a negative: just a difference. Looks like a solid enough firm. I guess I'd say BC has more prestige due to size/vault ranking/greater national and international reach, but I don't feel quite right about passing judgement on a firm I know so little about, so don't take my word for it!

Comparing BC to SHB really depends on practice area. SHB is almost all litigation, and that practice is very national/international and very well respected. I'd put their lit practice over BC, no doubt, in clients, reputation, prestige, and everything else. I'd bet that their absence on the V100 is largely due to how heavily transactional the prestige rankings are. For that practice, BC wins hands down.

If you're looking at SHB's KC office, the total number of attorneys at either firm is meaningless, as that office has substantially more attorneys than any BC office. I agree that SHB's small satellite offices should be looked at differently than BC's sizable satellite offices. BC's presence in markets where SHB doesn't have offices will also increase name recognition there, so if you think you might eventually want to be in one of those areas you should keep that in mind.

SHB also wins for work/life balance. They've been consistently ranked in the top 5 on Vault in the "hours" category, and for general quality of life. They're also pretty high up for diversity, if that matters to you. If you do CBs at both I think you'll notice a significant difference in firm culture, and if you do your research and talk to associates it shouldn't be too hard to tell. It's notable that SHB didn't do deferrals or no-offers throughout the recession, and still had PPP above $1 million (which is crazy for Missouri). Not knocking firms that did what they felt they had to do, but doing no deferrals ITE stands out to me.

Both great places to work, for sure, but very different firms. It really depends on what you want to do.

Also, IIRC Lewis Rice didn't "immediately" match BC's salary bump - it took a year or two. Not to split hairs, just something I noticed.

Thanks a lot that's very helpful. Where's the best place to determine the PPP numbers (and yes the $1 million for SHB is crazy)?

[Anonymous User]

I have no personal experience with Shook Hardy and Bacon. They have fewer than half the number of attorneys worldwide than does Bryan Cave (but that's not an incredibly important metric). They are not a V100 firm, but it looks like they do some interesting things. Glancing at their structure, it looks like their satellite offices are a little more specialized than are Bryan Cave's, but that's not a positive or a negative: just a difference. Looks like a solid enough firm. I guess I'd say BC has more prestige due to size/vault ranking/greater national and international reach, but I don't feel quite right about passing judgement on a firm I know so little about, so don't take my word for it!

Comparing BC to SHB really depends on practice area. SHB is almost all litigation, and that practice is very national/international and very well respected. I'd put their lit practice over BC, no doubt, in clients, reputation, prestige, and everything else. I'd bet that their absence on the V100 is largely due to how heavily transactional the prestige rankings are. For that practice, BC wins hands down.

If you're looking at SHB's KC office, the total number of attorneys at either firm is meaningless, as that office has substantially more attorneys than any BC office. I agree that SHB's small satellite offices should be looked at differently than BC's sizable satellite offices. BC's presence in markets where SHB doesn't have offices will also increase name recognition there, so if you think you might eventually want to be in one of those areas you should keep that in mind.

SHB also wins for work/life balance. They've been consistently ranked in the top 5 on Vault in the "hours" category, and for general quality of life. They're also pretty high up for diversity, if that matters to you. If you do CBs at both I think you'll notice a significant difference in firm culture, and if you do your research and talk to associates it shouldn't be too hard to tell. It's notable that SHB didn't do deferrals or no-offers throughout the recession, and still had PPP above $1 million (which is crazy for Missouri). Not knocking firms that did what they felt they had to do, but doing no deferrals ITE stands out to me.

Both great places to work, for sure, but very different firms. It really depends on what you want to do.

Also, IIRC Lewis Rice didn't "immediately" match BC's salary bump - it took a year or two. Not to split hairs, just something I noticed.

Well not all time, but when BC went to 125 LRF matched for the same cycle.

[Anonymous User]

So I know it's come up in a few of the posts here, but does anyone actually know anything about Armstrong Teasdale in St. Louis?

[Anonymous User]

Agreed. Pissed I got dinged. $110k in STL is pretty sweet no matter which way you slice it, and only 1850 billables...

How'd you find out? Did they send out the mailings yet?

Would be interested in this as well. Waiting to hear after my CB for one of the corp spots.

And congrats to the labor anon above.[/quote]

Didn't even get a CB. Had a screening OCI then got a ding in the mail I suppose a week later.

[Anonymous User]

any news on reinhart boerner?

[Anonymous User]

any news on reinhart boerner?

Did a CB recently.

[Anonymous User]

Spencer Fane rejection today... counting down the days until I decide to flee to europe/teach engrish in korea

[Undergradut]

1 CB but otherwise all dings. And I'm expecting the CB to be a ding. I feel like if I were 20-25% higher in terms of my class rank, I would have gotten several CB's in my home market and would have an offer by now.. If one misses out on the big firms in this market, one finds a steep drop-off from big firms to firms of 10 or so people.. firms that don't have tons of work and don't have structured programs for associates or clerks.