Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit Forum

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Here is a question that gets asked a few times on these forums. What advice can be given to genuinely help a student who wants to stay in law school but is at the bottom, below median, whatever, of their class? What do they do if they are certain to not get a job through OCI? What is the best course of action you would advise to maximize chances of employment after law school?

Thanks!

You should consider non-firm or smaller firm options. There are some really great places to get experience and start your career. As I have said earlier - network as much as possible with every lawyer you know or have a connection with.

[TheFriendlyBarber]

Thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

1) Thoughts on well-groomed beards when showing up for an interview? I've heard from younger partners they don't care, but they have warned older partners may be more conservative. Interested in Texas firms if that matters.

2) Any common fashion missteps that happen during interviews?

3) What have been some of the better general questions you've been asked by a student in an interview?

4) Do you view it as a negative if a student is not too involved in school organizations and activities even though the student has strong grades and is on a journal?

Oh I could tell some horror stories here. Best advice is just be well groomed and look in the mirror before you go in the firm. What would your mother think about what you look like??

I like it when the students ask about associate life and our practices. Just get a conversation going.

You should balance activities and don't try to spread yourself too thin.

That's a horrible standard to use.

[quakeroats]

Is recruiting affected if a firm pays entering associates less than its peers? Can a firm paying under market in its region still manage to attract students well above median? If so, how?

[chammer234]

If someone rolls into an interview with an all black button down shirt, maroon tie, and gelled hair, is it safe to assume you won't hire them? (I wouldnt)

What if I am a very outspoken Christian, with a cross on my lapel and an apocalyptic worldview?

Redheads? (be honest)

I have top 10% grades at UCLA and a good summer job, but I have a birthmark on my chin that looks like chocolate from a chocolate donut from Dunkin Donuts. Is this too distracting for you to result in an offer?

I am white. Should I act gay to get some kind of diversity boost?

I put my regular name on my resume, but I go by "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo." Should I mention this off the bat?

I am fairly antisocial, not attractive, and I generally dont work well under pressure, but I am a library hag and got good grades my first year. Cant wait to meet you!

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for taking your time to help us out OP.

I am a 2L student with 5 years of teaching experience and a Master's degree in education. I'm in the top 2% at a Tier 4 school highly regarded in my city. I sent out about 160 applications last week to CA biglaw firms seeking a SA job for 2012. Just got my first denial back today. Should I expect 160 denials, or do you think I have a shot at landing a SA gig somewhere?

[NYC Law]

Yall are really starting to fuck up this thread. Stop. Please.

[tecumseh]

Hi, thank you so much for your answers!

I have a couple of questions related to on campus recruiting:

1) I have secured a screening interview with a firm that I really like at a diversity job fair. This firm however is also coming to our OCI after that interview. Would it be a waste to bid on the firm again for OCI (as a backup assuming the first screener doesn't go well). Or do most firms not give you a second chance in this case?

2) On a related note, if I have secured a screening interview with a firm's office in one location via the diversity fair, would the firm view it negatively if I try to secure a screener with them at OCI for another location?

Thank you!

I can't really speak for other firms but if we did not call back from the job fair, we most likely would not call back during OCI.

As for question 2, again, my own opinion, I would wonder where you actually wanted to go. If you tell both offices that you want work there you are sending mixed messages. It might be better to just say up front that you would be willing to work in X, Y or Z office from the beginning. Make sense?

Thank you for your response. It does make sense firms would want you to pick an office in the end. However, I thought different offices usually have their strengths and weaknesses, and probably different hiring standards and needs? Plus, if you are interviewing with one office, can you also ask them to consider you for the other office? If not, would the firm hold it against you if you try to get screeners for two different offices - assuming you are still undecided?

[Ghost]

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[Anonymous User]

First off, as many have said before me, I really appreciate the information I've read in this thread and think it provides great insight coming from "the other side".

In your opinion as a recruiter, how do you view 1L summer study abroad programs, legal internships abroad, etc? It seems to be the general opinion of most of the TLS forums that studying abroad during the 1L summer is a waste of time/money. What are your thoughts on this? Would it be better to find a full time legal internship abroad or perhaps do a study abroad program for half of the summer and then return to the U.S. to work for the second half of the summer? There a many companies that offer legal internships abroad at NGOs etc in various places like Cape Town and the Hague for a fee. Would that be viewed negatively to pursue that type of internship? Would doing something abroad 1L summer be viewed negatively for 2L OCI? Or would I really be better off doing a typical 1L summer job like working for a judge, etc?

Thanks for your input!

[Anonymous User]

How long do you keep applicant materials?

I mass mailed for 1L SA positions but was shut out. Most of the firms I applied to are going to be at OCI and a minority job fair I am attending.

Is it okay to make some minor edits to my December cover letters or should I start from scratch? Also, should I discuss Law Review membership in the cover letter?

Thank you for your time.

[03121202698008]

Is there a specific length for a writing sample you're looking for? For someone interning with a judge, would you recommend a bench memo or an opinion drafted by the applicant? (I only ask because the opinions are obviously more summary have less analysis.)

[romothesavior]

Is recruiting affected if a firm pays entering associates less than its peers? Can a firm paying under market in its region still manage to attract students well above median? If so, how?

lolwut.

Hi, I'm ITE. Have we met?

[tarheel87]

I'm originally from Birmingham and very interested in practicing in Nashville. I don't really have any connections to the city, except for visiting it many times. Would being from the South help my chances at firms in Nashville? A few Nashville firms are coming to my school's OCI and I am planning on sending out my resume to many firms.

Also, I am very interested in practicing health law and I have heard that there is alot of this work done in Nashville. Do you have any advice on how to present this interest in cover letters or interviews?

Absolutely. Birmingham ties are close enough.

As for healthcare, it is our primary industry and we are known as the Silicon Valley for for-profit healthcare. Simply state that you understand the dominance of the industry and seek to join a firm with strong hc practice.

What about somebody who went to college in North Carolina? How does that (perhaps combined with a professed interest to return to the region) rate for ties?

Could you answer this question? ---^ I think it got lost in the shuffle.

NC would be good ties if you expressed particular interest in the region.

As a more general question, are you saying your ties don't need to be direct? For example, if I am from western North Carolina and want to apply to firms in the far eastern part of NC or in northern SC, do I have sufficient ties? I know you have to generalize here, but I'm interested in your views on this.

[timbs4339]

What's your feeling on bullet points in a cover letter?

[lawfirmrecruiter]

For mass mailings, if we had a previous employer write a generic letter of recommendation for us, would you recommend attaching it to each email or is this annoying to recruiters?

(I've had some HR people get annoyed about sending recs before prompted )

I don't mind early recs. Especially if the happen to be from a client.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

First off, as many have said before me, I really appreciate the information I've read in this thread and think it provides great insight coming from "the other side".

In your opinion as a recruiter, how do you view 1L summer study abroad programs, legal internships abroad, etc? It seems to be the general opinion of most of the TLS forums that studying abroad during the 1L summer is a waste of time/money. What are your thoughts on this? Would it be better to find a full time legal internship abroad or perhaps do a study abroad program for half of the summer and then return to the U.S. to work for the second half of the summer? There a many companies that offer legal internships abroad at NGOs etc in various places like Cape Town and the Hague for a fee. Would that be viewed negatively to pursue that type of internship? Would doing something abroad 1L summer be viewed negatively for 2L OCI? Or would I really be better off doing a typical 1L summer job like working for a judge, etc?

Thanks for your input!

Happy to help. As for summer programs abroad, they are not necessarily negative. I think it can give a student good international perspective and, at least in my market 1L jobs are hard to come by.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

NC would be good ties if you expressed particular interest in the region.

As a more general question, are you saying your ties don't need to be direct? For example, if I am from western North Carolina and want to apply to firms in the far eastern part of NC or in northern SC, do I have sufficient ties? I know you have to generalize here, but I'm interested in your views on this.[/quote]

I would think you would be fine in this particular example. Ties don't have to be exactly direct. It may be that you have a tie to an industry or relative or something non-family related. That includes region of the country.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

What's your feeling on bullet points in a cover letter?

I don't mind them as long as there are not too many and they serve a purpose to help me see pertinent info more easily. Just don't bullet your whole letter.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

How long do you keep applicant materials?

I mass mailed for 1L SA positions but was shut out. Most of the firms I applied to are going to be at OCI and a minority job fair I am attending.

Is it okay to make some minor edits to my December cover letters or should I start from scratch? Also, should I discuss Law Review membership in the cover letter?

Thank you for your time.

I would go ahead and send a new letter and discuss your new accomplishments, including Law Review.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if this has been asked already and if so I apologize. I understand that firms seek diversity when assessing applicants, similar to the way law schools do. If a student has a diversity that is unrelated to race, how could they effectively go about communicating this to employers? Thank you for your contributions.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Is there a specific length for a writing sample you're looking for? For someone interning with a judge, would you recommend a bench memo or an opinion drafted by the applicant? (I only ask because the opinions are obviously more summary have less analysis.)

I wouldn't worry so much about length. Your writing sample should be your best and most thoughtful work product.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Not sure if this has been asked already and if so I apologize. I understand that firms seek diversity when assessing applicants, similar to the way law schools do. If a student has a diversity that is unrelated to race, how could they effectively go about communicating this to employers? Thank you for your contributions.

Several ways. You can weave itinto your resume in the form of organization memberships or leadership roles. If you have written any articles related to the diversity, you can list that. You can also go the more direct route of self- identifying.

[Anonymous User]

I asked this in another thread, but I'd actually value your thoughts more than my peers on this matter:

I'm in the process of my 3L mass mailing campaign. I ended my 1L year just below median on account of two very bad grades (without those two grades, I would have been around top 1/3rd). My 2L year went much, much better--I was easily top 10% for the year.

The other day I decided to email one of the 1L professors I got a bad grade from, just to make sure my grade wasn't an error or anything (something I should have done right away, not a year later). The professor emailed me back and the grade seems to be correct; I just did really bad.

I had this same professor for a 2L seminar, in which I got an A. In the email about my 1L grade, the professor also mentioned that my seminar paper was one of the best in the class and offered to write a LOR to help put my 1L grade in perspective and to convey how well I did in the 2L class.

In a follow-up email, the professor explained that including such a letter in my firm apps might be wise. I'm inclined to agree, for two reasons:

• Unlike a grade addendum for LS apps, I wouldn't be writing this letter, a professor would. Seems like it wouldn't come across as whiny/defensive/etc. if I wasn't writing it.
• I think it could be a good letter. The professor offered to write it unsolicited. I really like this professor, we've had some good conversations at office hours (also, recently we both listened to another professor give a talk which contradicted the thesis of my seminar paper...my professor saw me afterward and said I should have brought my contradictory arguments/findings), so I think the feeling is mutual.

Of course, this letter could backfire by drawing too much attention to my couple bad 1L grades, or for some other reason I'm not foreseeing.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

I asked this in another thread, but I'd actually value your thoughts more than my peers on this matter:

I'm in the process of my 3L mass mailing campaign. I ended my 1L year just below median on account of two very bad grades (without those two grades, I would have been around top 1/3rd). My 2L year went much, much better--I was easily top 10% for the year.

The other day I decided to email one of the 1L professors I got a bad grade from, just to make sure my grade wasn't an error or anything (something I should have done right away, not a year later). The professor emailed me back and the grade seems to be correct; I just did really bad.

I had this same professor for a 2L seminar, in which I got an A. In the email about my 1L grade, the professor also mentioned that my seminar paper was one of the best in the class and offered to write a LOR to help put my 1L grade in perspective and to convey how well I did in the 2L class.

In a follow-up email, the professor explained that including such a letter in my firm apps might be wise. I'm inclined to agree, for two reasons:

• Unlike a grade addendum for LS apps, I wouldn't be writing this letter, a professor would. Seems like it wouldn't come across as whiny/defensive/etc. if I wasn't writing it.
• I think it could be a good letter. The professor offered to write it unsolicited. I really like this professor, we've had some good conversations at office hours (also, recently we both listened to another professor give a talk which contradicted the thesis of my seminar paper...my professor saw me afterward and said I should have brought my contradictory arguments/findings), so I think the feeling is mutual.

Of course, this letter could backfire by drawing too much attention to my couple bad 1L grades, or for some other reason I'm not foreseeing.

I think the letter is a good idea actually, especially since it is written by your professor. First, it shows that the same professor saw you improve over time and can give some context to your 1L issue. Second, it is not from you which means it won't sound like you are trying to justify something. If a firm is willing to look beyond 1L grades and see the whole story of your progression as a student, it will help a great deal. If they are not, they will not get past your grade issue no matter what you try to do. You have nothing to lose in my opinion by including it.

[adonai]

Do "personal biases" ever come into play when deciding who to hire? If someone happened to be very active in things that the hirer was a part of (say, actively involved in an organization the hirer was a board member of), do you think it would play a big role in ultimately hiring that individual over someone who had nothing to relate with? Or is this all even out of the question and you must hire whoever you think the firm would want?