Fall bonuses Forum

[tyrant_flycatcher]

Ok, but wouldn't that have equally been the case in 2018 as well? It still doesn't answer what changed this time.

I normally get extra caramel with my frappuccino. But every so often I decide not to and I pocket the extra quarter.

When was the last time the firms did that, before this?

Please stop abusing the anon feature of this website.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

As for the second two phrases, it is self-evident that Cravath has not been able to fully meet its normal obligations, as it has not paid a market bonus in this fall season. By definition, therefore, that firm was "not able to fully meet its normal obligations".

You're like a walking "spot the flaw in the argument" LSAT question. I'm starting to think you wouldn't grasp the difference between not being able to do something and choosing not to do something if you got it tattooed on your forehead.

To your second point, I would argue that my use of anon correctly falls under "sensitive employment related information about a firm" when a broad interpretation is taken of that definition. As you have alluded to, the practical usage of anon on this forum has expanded, and I would argue that talking about financial situation of a firm is "sensitive employment related information about a firm". In any case, I believe that I am entitled to a consistent application of the rules by the moderators, and given the frequent usage of anon for far less, I believe my usage of anon is appropriate.

To not allow anon in this circumstance would have a chilling effect on controversial and sensitive discussions, the exact opposite of the purpose of this forum.

I'm not interested in policing everyone who misuses anon, so I'll just note that saying (A) that any discussion about any law firm is "sensitive employment related information about a firm" and (B) in the alternative, mods won't do shit anyway, was a worse argument than simply telling me to go fuck myself.

[10b5-1]

Yeah it would be genuinely awesome if the admins would focus more on not letting acne-ridden 1Ls speculate about whether Cravath is unable to meet payroll this year (JFC...) under the anon function and less on posting weird threads to boost engagement. But whatever.

Back to the real topic - all discussion at this point about whether Cravath/K&E will see higher attrition is literally meaningless for the next 2/3 months (as applicable) because no one is leaving at this point until they see whether their firm has *shattered* the market and if they DO then all will be forgiven and forgotten and if they DON'T well THEN yes there will be mega-attrition.

Everything between now and bonus reveal date is just speculation. K&E said they will take fall bonuses into account, let's just see if they put their money where their mouth is.

[plantcoveredbuilding]

As professionals with rich clients know, one of the oddest aspects of human behavior is -- why and when do the wealthy part with money? They can be mind-bogglingly profligate, or head-scratchingly miserly, both on the same day, the same hour even. The same person who might pay $30,000 for a cake (that they could have gotten for $3,000 with a little effort), for an unnecessary party , will shortcut someone on their help staff who has been dutifully supporting them for years. I think it all comes down to how they feel about paying you. If it makes them feel good, they'll do it and money is no object. If they don't like you, don't respect you, wish they had someone better than you ... they won't.

What the bonus news tells me, is that Kirkland and Cravath are the miserable shitholes with a**hole partners that everyone thought they were. You'd really have to be a moron to bust your ass so hard for partners who treat you like this.

[Popopo2019]

As professionals with rich clients know, one of the oddest aspects of human behavior is -- why and when do the wealthy part with money? They can be mind-bogglingly profligate, or head-scratchingly miserly, both on the same day, the same hour even. The same person who might pay $30,000 for a cake (that they could have gotten for $3,000 with a little effort), for an unnecessary party , will shortcut someone on their help staff who has been dutifully supporting them for years. I think it all comes down to how they feel about paying you. If it makes them feel good, they'll do it and money is no object. If they don't like you, don't respect you, wish they had someone better than you ... they won't.

What the bonus news tells me, is that Kirkland and Cravath are the miserable shitholes with a**hole partners that everyone thought they were. You'd really have to be a moron to bust your ass so hard for partners who treat you like this.

Does your view change if they match at the end of the year? If I was told that I was getting 2019 market plus DPW fall+ At Xmas I wouldn’t be upset.

[plantcoveredbuilding]

Does your view change if they match at the end of the year?

Seems unlikely.

[Anonymous User]

As professionals with rich clients know, one of the oddest aspects of human behavior is -- why and when do the wealthy part with money? They can be mind-bogglingly profligate, or head-scratchingly miserly, both on the same day, the same hour even. The same person who might pay $30,000 for a cake (that they could have gotten for $3,000 with a little effort), for an unnecessary party , will shortcut someone on their help staff who has been dutifully supporting them for years. I think it all comes down to how they feel about paying you. If it makes them feel good, they'll do it and money is no object. If they don't like you, don't respect you, wish they had someone better than you ... they won't.

What the bonus news tells me, is that Kirkland and Cravath are the miserable shitholes with a**hole partners that everyone thought they were. You'd really have to be a moron to bust your ass so hard for partners who treat you like this.

Does your view change if they match at the end of the year? If I was told that I was getting 2019 market plus DPW fall+ At Xmas I wouldn’t be upset.

Not the person to whom you're responding, but: If they make me whole at year-end, I am okay with everything (but a little annoyed). If they don't -- I wouldn't leave my firm if they fail to match (it's too much effort, and I like the people I work with, etc.). But I would absolutely urge interviewees in future to take other firms' offers if they have them. I already hint at this when I discuss bonus minimums, but I would absolutely flat out say "Go to DPW/SullCrom, seriously. I wish I had when I had offers there and chose here instead." I'd consider it a moral duty frankly.

[POPTOP]

deleted for accidental duplication

[POPTOP]

dearly beloved (and 1l intruders)

this thread is a complete trash fire. how can anyone possibly want to politicize the idea of getting *more money*.

please, if you feel like you have a worthwhile opinion to contribute about the 'morality' or 'ethics' of whether or not we get paid, whether or not firms have the cash liquidity to pay it and if that is a legitimate concern (lmao), or whether or not there is anything in this decision other than a 'please don't quit' message to firms who genuinely fear a walkout, do everyone here a favor and put a cork in it. no one gives two hoots.

there's no need to anon your posts. reality check - your firms aren't reading these posts and no one cares enough about you to do anything about it if they did.

the only reason - literally the only reason - to check this thread is to find out if anyone else has matched or declined to match. i suggest that you use it for that purpose and put the energy you're devoting to inane, baseless speculation about firm economics and half-remembering JV philosophy class primers to better use rage-wanking to RBG hagiographies.

have a great weekend

poptop

[legalpotato]

dearly beloved (and 1l intruders)

this thread is a complete trash fire. how can anyone possibly want to politicize the idea of getting *more money*.

please, if you feel like you have a worthwhile opinion to contribute about the 'morality' or 'ethics' of whether or not we get paid, whether or not firms have the cash liquidity to pay it and if that is a legitimate concern (lmao), or whether or not there is anything in this decision other than a 'please don't quit' message to firms who genuinely fear a walkout, do everyone here a favor and put a cork in it. no one gives two hoots.

there's no need to anon your posts. reality check - your firms aren't reading these posts and no one cares enough about you to do anything about it if they did.

the only reason - literally the only reason - to check this thread is to find out if anyone else has matched or declined to match. i suggest that you use it for that purpose and put the energy you're devoting to inane, baseless speculation about firm economics and half-remembering JV philosophy class primers to better use rage-wanking to RBG hagiographies.

have a great weekend

poptop

slowclap.gif

[plantcoveredbuilding]

dearly beloved (and 1l intruders)

this thread is a complete trash fire. how can anyone possibly want to politicize the idea of getting *more money*.

please, if you feel like you have a worthwhile opinion to contribute about the 'morality' or 'ethics' of whether or not we get paid, whether or not firms have the cash liquidity to pay it and if that is a legitimate concern (lmao), or whether or not there is anything in this decision other than a 'please don't quit' message to firms who genuinely fear a walkout, do everyone here a favor and put a cork in it. no one gives two hoots.

there's no need to anon your posts. reality check - your firms aren't reading these posts and no one cares enough about you to do anything about it if they did.

the only reason - literally the only reason - to check this thread is to find out if anyone else has matched or declined to match. i suggest that you use it for that purpose and put the energy you're devoting to inane, baseless speculation about firm economics and half-remembering JV philosophy class primers to better use rage-wanking to RBG hagiographies.

have a great weekend

poptop

Are you actually sitting here clicking refresh expecting more firms? That's pathetic.

Dood it's over.

Kirkland and Cravath killed it. Their partners looked the trash help up and down and said, "get your dirty hands out of my pocket." Getting angry and talking about RBG or politics isn't going to change that.

[AaronCarter]

I feel there is significant evidence that firms which are not giving bonuses are not doing so hot financially...

It is clear that some firms simply cannot afford these bonuses. A firm like Cravath, for instance, has to worry about making payroll in the fall with its incoming class, and this likely drives its inability to give bonuses. All this means that it is clear that most firms in the market, at present, are not able to fully meet their normal obligations of giving market bonuses, starting all staff on time, and maintaining their structures. At least, that seems to be what the evidence so far is pointing to.

LMAOOOOOO what in the 1L is this

[SFSpartan]

I feel there is significant evidence that firms which are not giving bonuses are not doing so hot financially, despite the arguments to the contrary (probably by worried associates at the firms themselves, although I understand that people may still be working hard.)

It is clear that some firms simply cannot afford these bonuses. A firm like Cravath, for instance, has to worry about making payroll in the fall with its incoming class, and this likely drives its inability to give bonuses. All this means that it is clear that most firms in the market, at present, are not able to fully meet their normal obligations of giving market bonuses, starting all staff on time, and maintaining their structures. At least, that seems to be what the evidence so far is pointing to.

In the TLS version of inception, AdminMegan goes anon to post this flaming pile of garbage...

[plantcoveredbuilding]

I feel there is significant evidence that firms which are not giving bonuses are not doing so hot financially...

It is clear that some firms simply cannot afford these bonuses. A firm like Cravath, for instance, has to worry about making payroll in the fall with its incoming class, and this likely drives its inability to give bonuses. All this means that it is clear that most firms in the market, at present, are not able to fully meet their normal obligations of giving market bonuses, starting all staff on time, and maintaining their structures. At least, that seems to be what the evidence so far is pointing to.

LMAOOOOOO what in the 1L is this

If these 1L's had any clue how much Cravath and Kirkland partners take home in distributions [edit: because they drive the whip on associates much harder than partners from other firms. Some associates at these firms literally bill 3,000 hours.] I guess "they couldn't afford to pay me" hurts less than "they think I'm a piece of shit, and they'd rather buy something frivolous than pay me."

[jarofsoup]

The reason why you don’t get a fall bonus is because the partners have decided not to give you one.

Just like my firm. The reason why my firm has decided not to raise back salaries/ true up is because the partners want the extra money for themselves.

If you have ever been in the room with partners it is all about money. The firm puts a tremendous amount of pressure on partners to get bills out and collect. If you are a 1L who does not think this, it is going to be rough.

[Anonymous User]

The reason why you don’t get a fall bonus is because the partners have decided not to give you one.

Just like my firm. The reason why my firm has decided not to raise back salaries/ true up is because the partners want the extra money for themselves.

If you have ever been in the room with partners it is all about money. The firm puts a tremendous amount of pressure on partners to get bills out and collect. If you are a 1L who does not think this, it is going to be rough.

This. My firm reduced our salary and didn’t pay out our bonuses. A partner had the audacity to brag about how much he’s going to be making this year because he’s been busy/billing a lot (as my hours have taken a sharp downward turn).

Partners at some of our firms are hogging hours because some firms (especially EWYK firms) base partner year-end pay based on their collections. My partners have been billing 200+ hours a month during the pandemic because they want to make sure they get as much money as possible and know that the pot is bigger this year because of our austerity measures.

[NoLongerALurker]

So the consensus must be that the dream is dead and that perhaps year end bonuses will be increased? But how optimistic is the hivemind here on year end bonuses being increased?

[nickdrake]

Are Milbank and Freshfields considered peer firms with Cleary, Debevoise, etc., for recruitment at T14s?

[jarofsoup]

So the consensus must be that the dream is dead and that perhaps year end bonuses will be increased? But how optimistic is the hivemind here on year end bonuses being increased?

We are getting year end bonuses?

[LBJ's Hair]

Are Milbank and Freshfields considered peer firms with Cleary, Debevoise, etc., for recruitment at T14s?

No, but prestige doesn't pay the bills lol

[DoveBodyWash]

So the consensus must be that the dream is dead and that perhaps year end bonuses will be increased? But how optimistic is the hivemind here on year end bonuses being increased?

Hard to imagine CSM actually paying its associates less than DPW, STB and S&C.

[cheaptilts]

So the consensus must be that the dream is dead and that perhaps year end bonuses will be increased? But how optimistic is the hivemind here on year end bonuses being increased?

Hard to imagine CSM actually paying its associates less than DPW, STB and S&C.

Isn’t there a “Goldman Sachs discount” w/r/t compensation in I-Banking? Doesn’t seem to affect GS much.

[AaronCarter]

The reason why you don’t get a fall bonus is because the partners have decided not to give you one.

Just like my firm. The reason why my firm has decided not to raise back salaries/ true up is because the partners want the extra money for themselves.

If you have ever been in the room with partners it is all about money. The firm puts a tremendous amount of pressure on partners to get bills out and collect. If you are a 1L who does not think this, it is going to be rough.

[Anonymous User]

Are Milbank and Freshfields considered peer firms with Cleary, Debevoise, etc., for recruitment at T14s?

I think Milbank is, but definitely not Freshfields

[Anonymous User]

Is the lesson we’ve all learned here that Cravath actually is still the market leader?