The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Anonymous User]

been on this thread since the beginning. I've actually given up ...no applications, no symplicity, nothing. what's the point of putting in the work, we know I'm ending up at bumfuck retail or some secretary job, so may as well "enjoy" 3L. good luck to everyone else out there - we should start a support group because I hate every single person in law school and I dread talking to people or seeing anyone.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just going to get pregnant and go on welfare. that's what my life is now.

[shepdawg]

The funny part of this thread is that at the outset of law school everyone at my TTT expects 3L to be a job finding grind, because no one gets a real job before March.

[rad lulz]

The funny part of this thread is that at the outset of law school everyone at my TTT expects 3L to be a job finding grind, because no one gets a real job before March.

This is actually sorta encouraging.

[TTH]

Let's all just move to some shithole jurisdiction and start a firm together.

There's what? 15 or 20 active posters in this thread? Yeah? We probably have different backgrounds and interests such that we can provide a broad array of practice groups. BIGSOUTHDAKOTALAW here we come baby!

[rad lulz]

Let's all just move to some shithole jurisdiction and start a firm together.

There's what? 15 or 20 active posters in this thread? Yeah? We probably have different backgrounds and interests such that we can provide a broad array of practice groups. BIGSOUTHDAKOTALAW here we come baby!

Not a terrible idea

[kalvano]

Opening up shop with a couple friends is my back-up plan. Hopefully no need to, but if we do, we do.

[Anonymous User]

To open up shop with my friends would be to admit unemployment, which at my school has to be like, 5% of 3Ls. I'd rather just not mention it and have everyone assume I'm going to a big firm like they all are.

[Omerta]

Let's all just move to some shithole jurisdiction and start a firm together.

There's what? 15 or 20 active posters in this thread? Yeah? We probably have different backgrounds and interests such that we can provide a broad array of practice groups. BIGSOUTHDAKOTALAW here we come baby!

Not a terrible idea

You and I have had half serious conversations about this haha

[dc2013]

I have two things to share with all of you. First, I am very upset right now, as I am sure many of you are as well. One way I vent is by writing letters to Obama about student debt. Normally he never replies. In the last letter I sent him, I talked about how he said it was hard for him to pay off his student loans yet both he and his wife worked at Sidley! I asked him to imagine all the other people who don't work at firms like that and how they will struggle with huge levels of debt. The following is his response (he does not say anything helpful, he just talks about all the great things he has done):

Dear :

Thank you for writing. I have heard from many Americans about expanding access to higher education and managing student loan debt, and I appreciate your perspective.

The jobs of tomorrow are increasingly going to those who have more than a high school degree, and we know that individuals with college degrees earn about twice as much as those with only a high school diploma. That means we need to do everything we can to put higher education—whether from a community college, 2-year college, or 4-year institution—within reach for every American. And while higher education has never been more important, it has also never been more expensive. Tuition rates have more than doubled over the last two decades and too many graduates are faced with staggering debt upon leaving school.

An economy built to last demands we do everything we can to bring down the cost of college, because higher education should not be a luxury; it is an economic imperative that every family in America should be able to afford. My Administration has already more than doubled the total amount of funding available for Pell Grants and is helping 600,000 veterans go back to school with the Post-9/11 GI Bill. I have called on Congress to permanently extend the $2,500 per year American Opportunity Tax Credit for college tuition and to double the number of work-study jobs over the next five years to better assist students who are working their way through school. And because we won the fight to end taxpayer subsidies to banks that process student loans, tens of billions of dollars are now going directly to students and families in the form of more grants and better options for loan repayment.

No American should suffer financially because he or she chose to go to college. That is why I have proposed a series of actions to make it easier for borrowers to repay their Federal student loans. Starting in 2012, our “Pay As You Earn” proposal will allow 1.6 million students to cap their monthly payments at 10 percent of their income. We have also taken steps to allow individuals to consolidate their student loans so that instead of making multiple payments to multiple lenders every month, borrowers will be able to make one payment at a lower interest rate—improving the ease of making payments and reducing the risk of default.

Increasing Federal aid is part of the solution, but States and colleges also share responsibility for reining in costs. Because State budget cuts have been one of the largest factors in tuition increases at public colleges over the past several years, I am proposing an innovative Race to the Top competition for college affordability and completion, which will challenge States to enact systematic reforms to reduce costs and promote success. Other reforms will reward schools that remain affordable by changing how campus-based aid is distributed—shifting Federal funding toward schools that set responsible tuition policy, provide good value in education, and ensure higher numbers of low-income students complete their education. I have also proposed a “First in the World” competition to invest in colleges and nonprofits working to scale innovative strategies that will enhance quality on campuses and create long-term change in higher education.

American families also need better tools to help them make informed decisions about college costs and financial aid. My Administration is creating a College Scorecard for all degree-granting institutions, designed to provide essential information about college costs, graduation rates, and potential earnings in an easy-to-read format, helping students and families choose a college that offers the kind of education they hope to pursue at a price they can afford. We are also creating a Financial Aid Shopping Sheet to make it easier for families to compare aid packages, and I have proposed sharing earnings and employment information for college graduates so students have a better sense of the post-graduation outcomes they can expect.

Now more than ever, our success as a Nation depends on an educated workforce and an engaged citizenry. To find resources and assistance in financing education and repaying Federal student loans, call the Federal Student Aid Information Center at 1-800-433-3243 or visit http://www.StudentAid.gov. For more information about student debt repayment options or to explore “Know Before You Owe” resources, please visit http://www.ConsumerFinance.gov/Students. Information about defaulted student loans is available from the Department of Education at 1-800-621-3115.

Thank you, again, for writing.

Sincerely,

Barack Obama

[dc2013]

Second, I received a really funny rejection email the other day I thought I would share. The funny part is in bold.

Hi,

Thank you for your interest in the Associate Counsel with New Penn Financial. Our goal is to hire a candidate that would be the best fit for the position as well as the organization. As a result, we have decided not to move forward at this time. Please continue to stay in touch regarding future positions with New Penn Financial, we look forward to working with you again in the future.

Best wishes,
Human Resources

Haha, what an insulting email!

[Anonymous User]

Well, at least you are getting some responses as opposed to radio silence. Not sure which is worse. I am getting sick of listening to people at lunch talking about how they are bored and ready for their jobs they have lined up.

[rad lulz]

Well, at least you are getting some responses as opposed to radio silence. Not sure which is worse. I am getting sick of listening to people at lunch talking about how they are bored and ready for their jobs they have lined up.

That's why I avoid the law school and law students

[rad lulz]

Sending out some resumes to local firms to see if they have any openings for a law clerk. Got a rejection from one 30 mins later (weren't hiring). I forgot people actually read these things occasionally.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, sometimes they come back so fast you think you must be annoying them. They likely are getting tons of letters this time of year.

[Bikeflip]

While I'm relieved that some employers will break the radio silence with a rejection letter, a rejection letter that states "we rejected people because they had the following resume errors" is just disheartening, especially when you didn't have those errors. "Did you really read my resume? No? Okay."

Also, to the anon that reformatted my letter, thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I have an informal "come talk to us about this specific practice area in the city you really want to live in" meeting planned with a partner at a midsize law firm next week. What is the customary dress code for something like this?

[20160810]

I have an informal "come talk to us about this specific practice area in the city you really want to live in" meeting planned with a partner at a midsize law firm next week. What is the customary dress code for something like this?

If in doubt, suit up

[Anonymous User]

I have an informal "come talk to us about this specific practice area in the city you really want to live in" meeting planned with a partner at a midsize law firm next week. What is the customary dress code for something like this?

and good luck my friend

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone, there is definitely a little bit of movement as far as job opportunities at my Tier 1 school - glacial movement where there was none before. Public interest/smaller firms. I am starting to be more willing to consider job opportunities in my old field that might draw on my law degree, which would involve working at a nonprofit. Here's a question I'm having a hard time finding an answer to on the interwebz and would appreciate some help on. At what salary point is it more worth it to work in public interest and take the income based repayment and loan forgiveness than it is to work in the private sector.

For example if my options are 50k public sector vs. 70k private sector in the same city - which one am I better off at? I am primarily interested in this in terms of short term payoff - eg, not being crushed by loans on a month to month basis - because I have a partner who is in school and will eventually have a double income that will ease the burden of loans. I do get that if you manage to stay in the public sector for 10 years the advantages increase tremendously.

Let's say I have 100k in debt and have the choice between the 50k public sector job and 70k private sector. What about 50k public sector and 80k private sector? 60k? If there's better information on this I would be very grateful.

Cart, horse, just get any job and all that I know, trust me - just want to have an idea of what the best option is as I desperately apply for EVERYTHING.

[Anonymous User]

For everyone who has been mass-mailing and gotten some success, what are you mailing? Are you sending a "do you have any openings" email, or just emailing bombing your resume and transcript to the hiring contact? Any cover letter?

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone, there is definitely a little bit of movement as far as job opportunities at my Tier 1 school - glacial movement where there was none before. Public interest/smaller firms. I am starting to be more willing to consider job opportunities in my old field that might draw on my law degree, which would involve working at a nonprofit. Here's a question I'm having a hard time finding an answer to on the interwebz and would appreciate some help on. At what salary point is it more worth it to work in public interest and take the income based repayment and loan forgiveness than it is to work in the private sector.

For example if my options are 50k public sector vs. 70k private sector in the same city - which one am I better off at? I am primarily interested in this in terms of short term payoff - eg, not being crushed by loans on a month to month basis - because I have a partner who is in school and will eventually have a double income that will ease the burden of loans. I do get that if you manage to stay in the public sector for 10 years the advantages increase tremendously.

Let's say I have 100k in debt and have the choice between the 50k public sector job and 70k private sector. What about 50k public sector and 80k private sector? 60k? If there's better information on this I would be very grateful.

Cart, horse, just get any job and all that I know, trust me - just want to have an idea of what the best option is as I desperately apply for EVERYTHING.

Standard 10 year repayment for $100k is $1168/month or a total of just over $14,000/year. If you went on IBR you'd pay $410/month with the $50k/yr public sector job or $660/month with the $70k private job vs $785/month with the $80k private job. If you choose IBR for the private sector job, you'll be paying that payment for 25 years and be taxed on the amount of debt forgiven after those 25 years. If you take the public sector job and choose IBR, you'll have your debt forgiven in 10 years and not be taxed on the debt forgiven.

For simplicities sake, I assumed an individual would be living in Florida, a state with no state income tax, for the following:

$50k + IBR = about $34-35k take home in a state with no income tax after loans are paid (debt is forgiven in 10 years)
$70k + IBR = about $45-46k take home in a state with no income tax after loans are paid (debt is forgiven in 25 years if not paid off)
$80k + IBR = about $50-51k take home in a state with no income tax after loans are paid (debt is forgiven in 25 years if not paid off)

$70k + 10 year repayment = about $39-40k take home in a state with no income tax after loans are paid (10 years to repay fully)
$80k + 10 year repayment = about $46-47k take home in a state with no income tax after loans are paid (10 years to repay fully)

[Anonymous User]

For example if my options are 50k public sector vs. 70k private sector in the same city - which one am I better off at? I am primarily interested in this in terms of short term payoff - eg, not being crushed by loans on a month to month basis - because I have a partner who is in school and will eventually have a double income that will ease the burden of loans. I do get that if you manage to stay in the public sector for 10 years the advantages increase tremendously.

Let's say I have 100k in debt and have the choice between the 50k public sector job and 70k private sector. What about 50k public sector and 80k private sector? 60k? If there's better information on this I would be very grateful.

Check out this calculator: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/ibr.phtml

It's actually really detailed, and will let you put in two salaries each for you and your spouse, and say in how many years you'll move from one salary to the other. It'll detail the monthly payments for each plan, and the total amount forgiven, then discount that into present dollars. It's a great calculator.

[Anonymous User]

Time to take stock of this semester's job search efforts:

Didn't do a mass mail campaign. Hit up some stuff on Symplicity and tried to work some of the contacts I knew. Didn't bother with the federal govt. scramble because I don't have the resume for it. Concentrated mainly on firms, who didn't seem to really be doing a lot of hiring in the fall.

1) Callback at Waller's fall program. Rejected.
2) Phone screener off Symplicity submission to Midsize firm in home market. Got CB. Made it to final 2 people. Still waiting.
3) On-campus screener with PD in home market. Callback. Haven't heard.
4) IRS Honors. Survived a round of cuts to get an interview. No word on any further interviews or rejection.
5) Interview with white collar boutique in home market happening when I get back from break.

So still shit waiting to hear back from. I don't know if 5 interviews is good or not, but I'm really trying not to be discouraged.

Whelp, got some results. Was second choice at #2. Was first choice at #5, but they don't have the work. Still waiting on #3. Best bet now seems to be using some personal connections to try to snag DA in home market.

I regret law school.

I am the above anon


Things are looking up. I got an offer from the PD office in home market with formal offer pending nothing that would delay my bar admission. Sent the thing in a little later than I would have liked, but my nose is clean.

Feel relieved.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats to the anon who go the PD job!!! Great to hear.

I gather it is rather pointless to apply to USCIS with zero immigration law experience? I have been applying to any entry-level fed. gov't job but USCIS requires two letters of recommendation. I have people who would gladly write me letters but am hesitant to call in favors, esp. in a practice area in which I have not expressed any interest to my network of people. It's one thing to apply to every job hopelessly when it's your own time wasted, but another to ask that of someone else.

Very effective strategy though - the letters of rec are a sufficient roadblock to keep me, someone interested in gov't work but with zero immigration experience, from applying.

The range of things I'm applying to at this point is pretty comical.