Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

I agree and recognize it is not feasible to work 9-5 and bill 2000 hours. But I don't think that means that if you get something done quickly there is inevitably going to be more work waiting for you. My point is that if you get your work done and you're hitting your hours, there are firms (or maybe practice groups) where it is not a problem if you go home early. Note that this means you probably stayed later at some other time(s) during that particular reporting period or worked at home.

In either case my main point is not to be precise, but just to echo others in saying that when a friend in one industry tells you that they worked a 90-100 hour week, they have never come remotely close to billing a 90 hour week. Anyone out of law school understands this, but to the lurkers and law students who get the idea that law is a better lifestyle than other similarly situated professions, I just want them to be aware that they are terribly misinformed -- and all of that is true regardless of how dedicated you are to working that timer at 90% efficiency

...and, if you like your law job, good for you, I like my job too, but if I had been properly informed pre law school, I would've skipped these loans altogether and chosen a different similarly situated profession

...and, if I were really smart, I would have chosen a better undergraduate major, such that law/finance/and consulting would not have been the only decently paying options

[84651846190]

...and, if you like your law job, good for you, I like my job too, but if I had been properly informed pre law school, I would've skipped these loans altogether and chosen a different similarly situated professions

The vast majority of biglaw attorneys are precluded by their hubris from admitting this, but I'd imagine most, if not all, biglaw attorneys have secretly thought this at some point in their careers.

[Anonymous User]

Quit my biglaw job last week and just woke up in a panic that I haven't looked at my phone for emails yet ..... feels so good to be out.

[Anonymous User]

Quit my biglaw job last week and just woke up in a panic that I haven't looked at my phone for emails yet ..... feels so good to be out.

Congrats. How many years were you in biglaw? Are you still in law now?

[Anonymous User]

Quit my biglaw job last week and just woke up in a panic that I haven't looked at my phone for emails yet ..... feels so good to be out.

Lol, when I lateralled, I had 3 weeks of no emails on my phone and it was surreal.

[Anonymous User]

Quit my biglaw job last week and just woke up in a panic that I haven't looked at my phone for emails yet ..... feels so good to be out.

Will be doing this soon and look forward to shutting off my phone for an indefinite period.

What are your plans?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

...and, if you like your law job, good for you, I like my job too, but if I had been properly informed pre law school, I would've skipped these loans altogether and chosen a different similarly situated professions

The vast majority of biglaw attorneys are precluded by their hubris from admitting this, but I'd imagine most, if not all, biglaw attorneys have secretly thought this at some point in their careers.

The current juniors are the first ones who really had no excuse not to know what a terrible idea law school is for most people. Hopefully that means a slightly higher percentage of juniors aren't blindsided by the full extent of debtpwnage, but I also know there are enough stupid 22-year-olds to keep the river flowing even if everything were explained with a picture book, and even if they were to wise up, there are hundreds of Fordham 163s just waiting to take their place.

[Desert Fox]

...and, if you like your law job, good for you, I like my job too, but if I had been properly informed pre law school, I would've skipped these loans altogether and chosen a different similarly situated professions

The vast majority of biglaw attorneys are precluded by their hubris from admitting this, but I'd imagine most, if not all, biglaw attorneys have secretly thought this at some point in their careers.

The current juniors are the first ones who really had no excuse not to know what a terrible idea law school is for most people. Hopefully that means a slightly higher percentage of juniors aren't blindsided by the full extent of debtpwnage, but I also know there are enough stupid 22-year-olds to keep the river flowing even if everything were explained with a picture book, and even if they were to wise up, there are hundreds of Fordham 163s just waiting to take their place.

I think we are actually getting to the point where everyone is just going to have to do PAYE for life. That's probably better. Sure you'll have a mountain of debt for like 20 year, but it's way less harsh for cash flow.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

The current juniors are the first ones who really had no excuse not to know what a terrible idea law school is for most people. Hopefully that means a slightly higher percentage of juniors aren't blindsided by the full extent of debtpwnage, but I also know there are enough stupid 22-year-olds to keep the river flowing even if everything were explained with a picture book, and even if they were to wise up, there are hundreds of Fordham 163s just waiting to take their place.

I think we are actually getting to the point where everyone is just going to have to do PAYE for life. That's probably better. Sure you'll have a mountain of debt for like 20 year, but it's way less harsh for cash flow.

PAYE is life, that should be factored into future earnings before being swayed by that higher US News ranking.

Personally, I don't care at all for the Fordham 163 meme. If you have a 163 and are going to Fordham, then who am I to get on my high horse and say biglaw is bad, because you probably did not have a world of opportunities beforehand either. The job is not hard--someone from Fordham is probably just as capable assuming they will put in the hours.

I'm not gloom and doom or the destroyer of worlds here; I'm just saying if you went to a target undergrad or have other intangibles, then BOOM. STOP. YOU DID ENOUGH. GET A JOB THAT PAYS AND DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL. Lawyers have it no better/safer/etc. than any other highly paid position and living by the billable .1 is often so much worse than comparable careers.

And take this all with a grain of salt, because I left NYC biglaw behind... this is just a post-it for anyone similar to my former self out there.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Personally, I don't care at all for the Fordham 163 meme. If you have a 163 and are going to Fordham, then who am I to get on my high horse and say biglaw is bad, because you probably did not have a world of opportunities beforehand either. The job is not hard--someone from Fordham is probably just as capable assuming they will put in the hours.

There's no excuse for a prospective student not knowing, in 2016, that going to a non-T14 without a full ride is a terrible idea. Doesn't really matter what their opportunities were, because they'd be better off flipping burgers.

But that's not the point. The point is that with 37,000 students who want the same 4,000 jobs every year, nothing will change within the industry; if you leave because you're miserable, someone more desperate will take your place (and probably outwork you, too). Doesn't mean you can't make a positive change in your own life--seems like almost no one ever says they left Biglaw too early.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Personally, I don't care at all for the Fordham 163 meme. If you have a 163 and are going to Fordham, then who am I to get on my high horse and say biglaw is bad, because you probably did not have a world of opportunities beforehand either. The job is not hard--someone from Fordham is probably just as capable assuming they will put in the hours.

There's no excuse for a prospective student not knowing, in 2016, that going to a non-T14 without a full ride is a terrible idea. Doesn't really matter what their opportunities were, because they'd be better off flipping burgers.

But that's not the point. The point is that with 37,000 students who want the same 4,000 jobs every year, nothing will change within the industry; if you leave because you're miserable, someone more desperate will take your place (and probably outwork you, too). Doesn't mean you can't make a positive change in your own life--seems like almost no one ever says they left Biglaw too early.

Even a full ride, it's a bad idea to forego 3 years of valuable experience and salary to go to school for 3 years for a job you'll probably leave in 2-4 years anyways. I disagree with the flipping burgers statement--that hyperbole is why I think it's not so obvious to people that law school is generally a bad idea.

And not trying to change the industry, just the mind of one prospective student (in fact lawyers should probably make less and it should be a less prestigious career path, probably closer to accounting). You may be right, I'm way too far removed at this point to have a pulse on the thoughts of current undergrads, but at least in 2010, I decided on law school, because I thought it had relatively safe job security, safe salary bumps and hours that were slightly better than comparable jobs.

[nealric]

Stop talking about how "rich" biglawyers are. 96k post taxes isn't "rich" in NYC/SF/DC and if you think it's rich, then you should get a reality check.

I have to laugh at this a little bit. Yes, as a big law junior associate you feel like the bottom of the totem pole. Living in NY/SF/DC, you are looking up at millionaire partners and billionaire clients. You are also probably friends with at least a few bankers who are just starting to break into the multiple six-figure bonus party. So yes, you don't feel rich relative to your peer group.

But $160k a year is more than 90% of the U.S. population will ever see in their life, and you will be making it at the beginning of your career- with significant upside potential. And that's not even getting into global averages, where you are pretty much the top .1%. A junior biglaw associate can plausibly have more cash on hand than the average Central American will make in a decade and make more in a year than they will in a lifetime. Yes, NYC is expensive, but only because you insist on living in Manhattan. Try visiting Brownsville or the South Bronx some time and explaining to people there making $6.25 an hour that you aren't rich. Yes, the debt sucks (if you paid full fare), but with PAYE it's not quite the same as the credit card debt much of the population struggles with.

Does that mean jr. associates have no right to complain or wish for better conditions? Of course not. But crying poverty is not terribly convincing.

[Anonymous User]

I saw earlier in this thread that a former NYC big lawyer had lateralled and had a much better experience in a smaller market. I'm set to go to a secondary market, so I'm wondering if there are any other former NYC big lawyers that lateralled to biglaw in a secondary market--specifically any midwestern cities?

[Johann]

Stop talking about how "rich" biglawyers are. 96k post taxes isn't "rich" in NYC/SF/DC and if you think it's rich, then you should get a reality check.

I have to laugh at this a little bit. Yes, as a big law junior associate you feel like the bottom of the totem pole. Living in NY/SF/DC, you are looking up at millionaire partners and billionaire clients. You are also probably friends with at least a few bankers who are just starting to break into the multiple six-figure bonus party. So yes, you don't feel rich relative to your peer group.

But $160k a year is more than 90% of the U.S. population will ever see in their life, and you will be making it at the beginning of your career- with significant upside potential. And that's not even getting into global averages, where you are pretty much the top .1%. A junior biglaw associate can plausibly have more cash on hand than the average Central American will make in a decade and make more in a year than they will in a lifetime. Yes, NYC is expensive, but only because you insist on living in Manhattan. Try visiting Brownsville or the South Bronx some time and explaining to people there making $6.25 an hour that you aren't rich. Yes, the debt sucks (if you paid full fare), but with PAYE it's not quite the same as the credit card debt much of the population struggles with.

Does that mean jr. associates have no right to complain or wish for better conditions? Of course not. But crying poverty is not terribly convincing.

If you aren't content with your life: try comparing your life to an African slave in the diamond mines; also save money by putting your physical well being at risk!

[krads153]

^ Was someone crying that it was poverty level? I thought that people were just saying that biglaw salaries are not rich but middle class.

From my perspective, I don't think that biglawyers are "rich" either, but I grew up partially in flyover with a LOT of rich relatives/friends/classmates. A lot of them made money running construction businesses, turning commercial and residential real estate, had a computer company, etc. so not necessarily white collar jobs. Although they had a lot more money than biglawyers, they seemed much more down to earth though than "white collar professionals" in NYC. That's from my perspective though - I grew up around a lot of multi-millionaires with more money than biglawyers (and a lot of these were just "blue collar" business owners who didn't have the "prestigious pedigree" that people seem to value and go on about in NYC and went to average state schools). I assume others ITT grew up around similarly wealthy people.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

I saw earlier in this thread that a former NYC big lawyer had lateralled and had a much better experience in a smaller market. I'm set to go to a secondary market, so I'm wondering if there are any other former NYC big lawyers that lateralled to biglaw in a secondary market--specifically any midwestern cities?

Not midwest, and it's a total crapshoot, but this is probably a better job than I was even hoping for out of law school. Downsides: client dev, pay scale bumps, fewer alternative exit options, resources, expertise (probably others). Upsides: 9ish-5ish, more remote friendly, way "richer" with COL for the time being, partnership prospects (but see client dev) (probably others).

As to the rich point from a poster above, no one's arguing its harder for most out there in the real world. Anyone talking about flipping burgers is just being ridiculous. But if you look at comparable career paths, tuition/foregone salary is not worth it to work in an industry where most dream of getting to the business side one way or another. If your comparable career path is flipping burgers, then by all means law school may just be a way to pull yourself out of proverty and support a family--biglaw is all about second chances

[krads153]

As to the rich point from a poster above, no one's arguing its harder for most out there in the real world. Anyone talking about flipping burgers is just being ridiculous. But if you look at comparable career paths, tuition/foregone salary is not worth it to work in an industry where most dream of getting to the business side one way or another. If your comparable career path is flipping burgers, then by all means law school may just be a way to pull yourself out of proverty and support a family--biglaw is all about second chances

Yeah, it's a little ridiculous to assume that biglawyers (who for the most part seemed to have gone to top colleges and done well academically) would only have two options - flipping burgers or biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

I saw earlier in this thread that a former NYC big lawyer had lateralled and had a much better experience in a smaller market. I'm set to go to a secondary market, so I'm wondering if there are any other former NYC big lawyers that lateralled to biglaw in a secondary market--specifically any midwestern cities?

Not midwest, and it's a total crapshoot, but this is probably a better job than I was even hoping for out of law school. Downsides: client dev, pay scale bumps, fewer alternative exit options, resources, expertise (probably others). Upsides: 9ish-5ish, more remote friendly, way "richer" with COL for the time being, partnership prospects (but see client dev) (probably others).

Yeah those downsides make sense. In all my OCI interviews the secondary market firms I interviewed with sold a work-life balance that wasn't possible in NYC. Many of the lawyers had come from NYC and were much happier now in a midwest market, claiming they usually worked from 9-5/7. I'm just hoping it wasn't some bullshit they were selling during the callback process.

[nealric]

Stop talking about how "rich" biglawyers are. 96k post taxes isn't "rich" in NYC/SF/DC and if you think it's rich, then you should get a reality check.

I have to laugh at this a little bit. Yes, as a big law junior associate you feel like the bottom of the totem pole. Living in NY/SF/DC, you are looking up at millionaire partners and billionaire clients. You are also probably friends with at least a few bankers who are just starting to break into the multiple six-figure bonus party. So yes, you don't feel rich relative to your peer group.

But $160k a year is more than 90% of the U.S. population will ever see in their life, and you will be making it at the beginning of your career- with significant upside potential. And that's not even getting into global averages, where you are pretty much the top .1%. A junior biglaw associate can plausibly have more cash on hand than the average Central American will make in a decade and make more in a year than they will in a lifetime. Yes, NYC is expensive, but only because you insist on living in Manhattan. Try visiting Brownsville or the South Bronx some time and explaining to people there making $6.25 an hour that you aren't rich. Yes, the debt sucks (if you paid full fare), but with PAYE it's not quite the same as the credit card debt much of the population struggles with.

Does that mean jr. associates have no right to complain or wish for better conditions? Of course not. But crying poverty is not terribly convincing.

If you aren't content with your life: try comparing your life to an African slave in the diamond mines; also save money by putting your physical well being at risk!

Nobody is talking about people living in extreme poverty or conditions of slavery. I just think a lot of biglaw types lose perspective by virtue of the people they interact with on a day to day basis. Sure, a first-year biglaw associate is not going to be living high on the hog, but being able to actually afford an apartment on your own in Manhattan at 25 is a HUGE deal- and outside the means of most young middle class people.

I don't doubt there are people who grew up around successful blue collar business owner-types in midwestern cities, but understand they are the exception. And most of those types weren't living like biglaw associates at the age of 25.

Looking at comparable career paths is a total crapshoot. Everyone's situation is unique in terms of what they could have been doing other than biglaw. I was making less than $35k a year in flyover before law school with the best job I could find with my undergrad humanities degree. Making $160k was quite the bump, even taking into account borrowing.

[nealric]

As to the rich point from a poster above, no one's arguing its harder for most out there in the real world. Anyone talking about flipping burgers is just being ridiculous. But if you look at comparable career paths, tuition/foregone salary is not worth it to work in an industry where most dream of getting to the business side one way or another. If your comparable career path is flipping burgers, then by all means law school may just be a way to pull yourself out of proverty and support a family--biglaw is all about second chances

Yeah, it's a little ridiculous to assume that biglawyers (who for the most part seemed to have gone to top colleges and done well academically) would only have two options - flipping burgers or biglaw.

That wasn't my argument at all. Of course the choice won't be biglaw or burger flipping. My point is that you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that biglaw is still a very lucrative career in the grand scheme of things.

[Desert Fox]

In DC biglaw is still probably the best paying professional industry in town for rank and file professionals. Shit like lobbying and contracting can be more lucrative but its sink or swim.

Still doesn't make us rich. Upper middle class at best. I don't even fly first class.

[krads153]

I don't doubt there are people who grew up around successful blue collar business owner-types in midwestern cities, but understand they are the exception. And most of those types weren't living like biglaw associates at the age of 25.
.

I sure hope they weren't - paying over 3k to live in a small one bedroom apt! Lol. The COL has risen dramatically in NYC/SF/DC, etc. since they were 25. I bet the rich blue collar business owners at 25 were living in a house, paying like $400 bucks a month or something, and could afford a car. Even though they made less money, adjusted for inflation and COL, it probably wasn't that much less.

Case in point - my uncle bought a house for $500k 20 years ago in the Bay Area, now worth over $4 million.....so yeah, they weren't living like we were at 25 since everything was mad cheap. That house was probably $200k when he was 25. Now it's $4 million.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Stop talking about how "rich" biglawyers are. 96k post taxes isn't "rich" in NYC/SF/DC and if you think it's rich, then you should get a reality check.

I have to laugh at this a little bit. Yes, as a big law junior associate you feel like the bottom of the totem pole. Living in NY/SF/DC, you are looking up at millionaire partners and billionaire clients. You are also probably friends with at least a few bankers who are just starting to break into the multiple six-figure bonus party. So yes, you don't feel rich relative to your peer group.

But $160k a year is more than 90% of the U.S. population will ever see in their life, and you will be making it at the beginning of your career- with significant upside potential. And that's not even getting into global averages, where you are pretty much the top .1%. A junior biglaw associate can plausibly have more cash on hand than the average Central American will make in a decade and make more in a year than they will in a lifetime. Yes, NYC is expensive, but only because you insist on living in Manhattan. Try visiting Brownsville or the South Bronx some time and explaining to people there making $6.25 an hour that you aren't rich. Yes, the debt sucks (if you paid full fare), but with PAYE it's not quite the same as the credit card debt much of the population struggles with.

Does that mean jr. associates have no right to complain or wish for better conditions? Of course not. But crying poverty is not terribly convincing.

If you aren't content with your life: try comparing your life to an African slave in the diamond mines; also save money by putting your physical well being at risk!

Nobody is talking about people living in extreme poverty or conditions of slavery. I just think a lot of biglaw types lose perspective by virtue of the people they interact with on a day to day basis. Sure, a first-year biglaw associate is not going to be living high on the hog, but being able to actually afford an apartment on your own in Manhattan at 25 is a HUGE deal- and outside the means of most young middle class people.

I don't doubt there are people who grew up around successful blue collar business owner-types in midwestern cities, but understand they are the exception. And most of those types weren't living like biglaw associates at the age of 25.

Looking at comparable career paths is a total crapshoot. Everyone's situation is unique in terms of what they could have been doing other than biglaw. I was making less than $35k a year in flyover before law school with the best job I could find with my undergrad humanities degree. Making $160k was quite the bump, even taking into account borrowing.

No offense, really, but you sound like someone who benefited from biglaw. Many in biglaw had prior opportunities at 60-80K base range + bonus/benefits straight out of college and still chose law school. All I'm saying is that if they chose law school to do biglaw transactional work, then they probably chose wrong regardless of whether they got a scholarship or not.

And for what it's worth, you're probably as much of an outlier as the people who did have these opportunities pre-law school and even more so the people in high school who could choose a better major than that. Though, I would never forego my own humanities major, college was a blast.

[Tls2016]

Stop talking about how "rich" biglawyers are. 96k post taxes isn't "rich" in NYC/SF/DC and if you think it's rich, then you should get a reality check.

I have to laugh at this a little bit. Yes, as a big law junior associate you feel like the bottom of the totem pole. Living in NY/SF/DC, you are looking up at millionaire partners and billionaire clients. You are also probably friends with at least a few bankers who are just starting to break into the multiple six-figure bonus party. So yes, you don't feel rich relative to your peer group.

But $160k a year is more than 90% of the U.S. population will ever see in their life, and you will be making it at the beginning of your career- with significant upside potential. And that's not even getting into global averages, where you are pretty much the top .1%. A junior biglaw associate can plausibly have more cash on hand than the average Central American will make in a decade and make more in a year than they will in a lifetime. Yes, NYC is expensive, but only because you insist on living in Manhattan. Try visiting Brownsville or the South Bronx some time and explaining to people there making $6.25 an hour that you aren't rich. Yes, the debt sucks (if you paid full fare), but with PAYE it's not quite the same as the credit card debt much of the population struggles with.

Does that mean jr. associates have no right to complain or wish for better conditions? Of course not. But crying poverty is not terribly convincing.

If you aren't content with your life: try comparing your life to an African slave in the diamond mines; also save money by putting your physical well being at risk!

The comparison I care about is the 0Ls that go to law school expecting biglaw and money for life. Some 0L actually posted the other day that going to HLS or YLS means you are set for life. It's just ridiculous how many 0Ls still expect that biglaw and riches are theirs just going to law school, many of them just see the number and don't consider anything but money.

There is a lot more discussion now about what biglaw entails and how for many lawyers their salary is the highest ever at the beginning of their career.

[nealric]

Stop talking about how "rich" biglawyers are. 96k post taxes isn't "rich" in NYC/SF/DC and if you think it's rich, then you should get a reality check.

I have to laugh at this a little bit. Yes, as a big law junior associate you feel like the bottom of the totem pole. Living in NY/SF/DC, you are looking up at millionaire partners and billionaire clients. You are also probably friends with at least a few bankers who are just starting to break into the multiple six-figure bonus party. So yes, you don't feel rich relative to your peer group.

But $160k a year is more than 90% of the U.S. population will ever see in their life, and you will be making it at the beginning of your career- with significant upside potential. And that's not even getting into global averages, where you are pretty much the top .1%. A junior biglaw associate can plausibly have more cash on hand than the average Central American will make in a decade and make more in a year than they will in a lifetime. Yes, NYC is expensive, but only because you insist on living in Manhattan. Try visiting Brownsville or the South Bronx some time and explaining to people there making $6.25 an hour that you aren't rich. Yes, the debt sucks (if you paid full fare), but with PAYE it's not quite the same as the credit card debt much of the population struggles with.

Does that mean jr. associates have no right to complain or wish for better conditions? Of course not. But crying poverty is not terribly convincing.

If you aren't content with your life: try comparing your life to an African slave in the diamond mines; also save money by putting your physical well being at risk!

The comparison I care about is the 0Ls that go to law school expecting biglaw and money for life. Some 0L actually posted the other day that going to HLS or YLS means you are set for life. It's just ridiculous how many 0Ls still expect that biglaw and riches are theirs just going to law school, many of them just see the number and don't consider anything but money.

There is a lot more discussion now about what biglaw entails and how for many lawyers their salary is the highest ever at the beginning of their career.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "set for life". Is going to YLS a guarantee of fabulous riches? Of course not, but it means that as long as you are willing to work hard and have at least a modicum of social graces, your chances of being able to live an upper middle class lifestyle are extremely high.