NU OCI 2013/The Great Jerb Hunt Forum

[rinkrat19]

I have answers for "tell me about a challenge you faced" and "tell me about how you resolved a conflict" and "what's your weakness" and a few other questions, but "why firm" continutes to baffle me.

I've actually found law firm interviews to be more conversational and less behavioral. Of course it is good to be prepared for behavioral questions, but also be prepared for a more relaxed and conversational interview.

As for why firm, make a pitch about the firm, its practice areas, and the location.

For a third swing at the question in that bad interview yesterday, I mentioned I liked how it was founded on the west coast and was located in (ok, it was Orrick, so I like the Bay Area + Portland + Seattle locations) and he brushed that off as basically invalid. "So beyond the geographical and historical accident that placed our offices where they are, why do you think you'd want to work for us?") And it was an IP interview, so practice area wasn't possible beyond lit/pros.

I also tried client type: "even beyond the IP group, your clients are mostly tech-focused and I find the creation of actual things that directly and concretely shape people's lives, from medicines to video games, interesting and worth participating in." Him: "So you don't like regular business clients but you want to work for a business firm?"

He stayed on the question for probably 12 minutes of the screener. I mean, if you don't like my answer (or my 2nd try or my 3rd) just mark that down and move on.

Also fun were his flip-flops that I swear were just to throw me off-balance mid-answer
Him: what area of IP would be your dream job?
Me: while I know patent is the biggest part, and I find patent interesting, I think trademark is really fascinating for [reasons]
Him: (interrupts, deadpan) Most people don't think patents are interesting.
Me: (uncomfortable laugh) keeping track of patent filing dates might not be fascinating but you're helping create something concrete, blah blah
Him: But I do patents, so I find them pretty fascinating.
Me: Well, back to trademarks, which I do actually find fascinating...

[bk1]

I don't think founding area is that great a tack. I think saying you like being in the home office and/or being in a larger office rather than satellite office (or vice versa) are good ideas. With accompanying reasons of course.

I also think the client thing is weird. Why are the clients for matters that you won't be working on important to you? If I were an interviewer my thought would be "why do you care about the M&A clients if you're going to be doing IP lit and why does that make you want to come to this firm?"

The reality is that there isn't always a ton of stuff that differentiates these firms. That said, there are definitely some poorer ways of answering the "why firm?" question.

ETA (re conversation): Assuming you're relating the interview close to reality, I think it's a bit odd to answer "what's your dream area?" with "I like patent but trademark is really interesting" rather than "patent is my dream area for X, Y, and Z, but I am still open to trademark because there are other reasons I find that interesting."

[rinkrat19]

I don't think founding area is that great a tack. I think saying you like being in the home office and/or being in a larger office rather than satellite office (or vice versa) are good ideas. With accompanying reasons of course.

I also think the client thing is weird. Why are the clients for matters that you won't be working on important to you? If I were an interviewer my thought would be "why do you care about the M&A clients if you're going to be doing IP lit and why does that make you want to come to this firm?"

The reality is that there isn't always a ton of stuff that differentiates these firms. That said, there are definitely some poorer ways of answering the "why firm?" question.

Well, then clearly I'm even worse at answering the question than I thought.

[rinkrat19]

ETA (re conversation): Assuming you're relating the interview close to reality, I think it's a bit odd to answer "what's your dream area?" with "I like patent but trademark is really interesting" rather than "patent is my dream area for X, Y, and Z, but I am still open to trademark because there are other reasons I find that interesting."

I was trying to say "trademark is my favorite but I don't want to rule myself completely out of patent by saying it sucks because I know that's where most of the jobs are."

The IP version of "I'd love to practice environmental international human rights law, but I understand I might not get my wish and I'm ok with that."

[bk1]

ETA (re conversation): Assuming you're relating the interview close to reality, I think it's a bit odd to answer "what's your dream area?" with "I like patent but trademark is really interesting" rather than "patent is my dream area for X, Y, and Z, but I am still open to trademark because there are other reasons I find that interesting."

I was trying to say "trademark is my favorite but I don't want to rule myself completely out of patent by saying it sucks because I know that's where most of the jobs are."

The IP version of "I'd love to practice environmental international human rights law, but I understand I might not get my wish and I'm ok with that."

Ah. IMO, that's a pretty terrible answer in the sense that gunning for the practice group that takes almost no people is just a bad idea. You don't really need to be honest when they ask about your dream area. Heck, honesty is probably ill-advised.

[rinkrat19]

ETA (re conversation): Assuming you're relating the interview close to reality, I think it's a bit odd to answer "what's your dream area?" with "I like patent but trademark is really interesting" rather than "patent is my dream area for X, Y, and Z, but I am still open to trademark because there are other reasons I find that interesting."

I was trying to say "trademark is my favorite but I don't want to rule myself completely out of patent by saying it sucks because I know that's where most of the jobs are."

The IP version of "I'd love to practice environmental international human rights law, but I understand I might not get my wish and I'm ok with that."

Ah. IMO, that's a pretty terrible answer in the sense that gunning for the practice group that takes almost no people is just a bad idea. You don't really need to be honest when they ask about your dream area. Heck, honesty is probably ill-advised.

ITT I learn for the first time that I am awful at interviews.

ETA: Got a screener in Portland tomorrow. Super confident about it now.

[Anonymous User]

Please let me know if there is anything in the top 15-ish where it appears I would definitely *not* get the firm by lottery. I have put the number of available slots in parentheses.

They are all Chicago offices. Please evaluate strictly based on how likely I am to land a screener at each position. The reason is that I have other job fair interviews, etc.

1. Baker & McKenzie (20)
2. Sidley Austin (80)
3. Kirkland & Ellis (80)
4. Paul Hastings (20)
5. Ropes & Gray (20)
6. DLA Piper (20 total for 3 offices)
7. Jenner & Block (60)
8. Latham & Watkins (76)
9. Katten Muchin (40)
10. McDermott (100)
11. Proskauer (20)
12. Dechert (20)
13. mcguirewoods (20)
14. Locke Lord (20)
15. Greenberg Traurig (20)
16. Dentons (20)
17. Morgan Lewis (20)
18. Dykema (20)
19. Bryan Cave (38)
20. Polsinelli (20)
21. Quarles & Brady (20)

Key questions: Will I get Jenner at 7? McDermott at 10? Will I still get Ropes and Paul Hastings if I move Jenner to 4?

[homestyle28]

Please let me know if there is anything in the top 15-ish where it appears I would definitely *not* get the firm by lottery. I have put the number of available slots in parentheses.

They are all Chicago offices. Please evaluate strictly based on how likely I am to land a screener at each position. The reason is that I have other job fair interviews, etc.

1. Baker & McKenzie (20)
2. Sidley Austin (80)
3. Kirkland & Ellis (80)
4. Paul Hastings (20)
5. Ropes & Gray (20)
6. DLA Piper (20 total for 3 offices)
7. Jenner & Block (60)
8. Latham & Watkins (76)
9. Katten Muchin (40)
10. McDermott (100)
11. Proskauer (20)
12. Dechert (20)
13. McGuirewoods (20)
14. Locke Lord (20)
15. Greenberg Traurig (20)
16. Dentons (20)
17. Morgan Lewis (20)
18. Dykema (20)
19. Bryan Cave (38)
20. Polsinelli (20)
21. Quarles & Brady (20)

Key questions: Will I get Jenner at 7? McDermott at 10? Will I still get Ropes and Paul Hastings if I move Jenner to 4?

After 4 or 5 there are no guarantees. But I'd wager you won't get Katten, mcguirewoods, or Greenberg or almost all of your 16-21. Jenner won't last until 7 I don't think

[Anonymous User]

Do you guys know of any Chicago firms that have transfer bias?

[fishfry111]

[franklyscarlet]

... yes?

[rinkrat19]

... yes?

Possibly a 0L seeing our collective confusion and panic and eagerly anticipating his chance to do OCI?

[IAFG]

Oh god. Rink. This is your come-to-Jesus. You don't have a pitch. Your pitch is somewhere between ineffective and incompetent. Before OCI, before writing another cover letter you MUST:

1) find a few practicing associates in the practice areas you are pitching yourself for

2) get AT LEAST THREE in each practice area you are pitching you for to talk to you ON THE PHONE and listen you your pitch and give you constructive criticism. Do you hear what I am saying to you?

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

T20 transfer, top 1/3, focusing primarily on NY (born there), but would also be happy with SF (significant family/work ties) and Chicago (friends there, but no ties except for NU). I threw in some more random cities lower down the list that I've visited, like, and know people in. The thought was maybe they'd be available that low. Critique is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

(bid #) (firm name) (location) (interview slots)
many = multiple cities

1. Cahill (NY) (20)
2. Dechert (NY/PA) (20)
3. Allen & Overy (Hong Kong, NY, DC) (20)
4. Fried Frank (NY) (40)
5. Milbank Tweed (NY) (40)
6. Proskauer (NY) (20)
7. White and Case (20)
8. Chadbourne (NY) (20)
9. Kirkland (SF/SV) (40)
10. Vedder Price (Chicago (20)
11. Cadwalader (NY) (40)
12. Kirkland (NY) (20)
13. Fenwick West (SF) (20)
14. Cleary (NY) (40)
15. Winston and Strawn (Chicago) (60)
16. Bryan Cave (many locations) (38)
17. Paul Weiss (NY) (40)
18. Weil Gotshal (NY) (60)
19. Wilkie Farr (NY) (20)
20. Davis Polk (NY) (40)
21. Drinker Biddle (Philly,Chicago) 40
22. Ropes Gray (many locations) (40)
23. Latham Watkins (NY) (19)
24. Chapman Cutler (Chicago) (40)
25. Alston Bird (many locations) (20)
26. Schiff Hardin (many) (80)
27. Foley Lardner (many) (40)
28. McDermott Will Emery (Chicago) (100)
29. Kaye Scholer (NY) (40)
30. Cravath Swaine Moore (NY) (36)
31. Davis Wright Tremaine (Portland, Seattle) (20)
32. Sullivan Cromwell (NY) (40)
33. Skadden (Chicago) (60)
34. Cooley(many) (36)
35. Faegre Baker Daniels (Chicago, Indy, MNPLS) (40)
36. Bingham McCutchen (Boston (20)
37. Dinsmore and Stohl (many) (9)
38. Quarles Brady (many) (20)
39. Lewis Rice (STL) (20)
40. Locke Lorde (TX) (20)
41. Perkins Coie (Portland, Seattle) (20)
42. Baker Botts (TX) (20)
43. Lathrop Gage (KC) (20)
44. Reinhart Boehner Van Deuren SC (Milwaukee) (20)
45. Taft Stettinuius and Holister (Indy) (11)
46. Whyte Hurschboeck Dudek SC (WI) (14)
47. Reed Smith (Chicao, Philly, Pittsburgh) (20)
48. Weil Gotshal Manges (SV) (20)
49. Irell and Manella (LA) (20)
50. National Fuel Gas Company (Williamsville NY) (20)

[Pokemon]

Hi all,

T20 transfer, top 1/3, focusing primarily on NY (born there), but would also be happy with SF (significant family/work ties) and Chicago (friends there, but no ties except for NU). I threw in some more random cities lower down the list that I've visited, like, and know people in. The thought was maybe they'd be available that low. Critique is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

(bid #) (firm name) (location) (interview slots)
many = multiple cities

1. Cahill (NY) (20)
2. Dechert (NY/PA) (20)
3. Allen & Overy (Hong Kong, NY, DC) (20)
4. Fried Frank (NY) (40)
5. Milbank Tweed (NY) (40)
6. Proskauer (NY) (20)
7. White and Case (20)
8. Chadbourne (NY) (20)
9. Kirkland (SF/SV) (40)
10. Vedder Price (Chicago (20)
11. Cadwalader (NY) (40)
12. Kirkland (NY) (20)
13. Fenwick West (SF) (20)
14. Cleary (NY) (40)
15. Winston and Strawn (Chicago) (60)
16. Bryan Cave (many locations) (38)
17. Paul Weiss (NY) (40)
18. Weil Gotshal (NY) (60)
19. Wilkie Farr (NY) (20)
20. Davis Polk (NY) (40)
21. Drinker Biddle (Philly,Chicago) 40
22. Ropes Gray (many locations) (40)
23. Latham Watkins (NY) (19)
24. Chapman Cutler (Chicago) (40)
25. Alston Bird (many locations) (20)
26. Schiff Hardin (many) (80)
27. Foley Lardner (many) (40)
28. McDermott Will Emery (Chicago) (100)
29. Kaye Scholer (NY) (40)
30. Cravath Swaine Moore (NY) (36)
31. Davis Wright Tremaine (Portland, Seattle) (20)
32. Sullivan Cromwell (NY) (40)
33. Skadden (Chicago) (60)
34. Cooley(many) (36)
35. Faegre Baker Daniels (Chicago, Indy, MNPLS) (40)
36. Bingham McCutchen (Boston (20)
37. Dinsmore and Stohl (many) (9)
38. Quarles Brady (many) (20)
39. Lewis Rice (STL) (20)
40. Locke Lorde (TX) (20)
41. Perkins Coie (Portland, Seattle) (20)
42. Baker Botts (TX) (20)
43. Lathrop Gage (KC) (20)
44. Reinhart Boehner Van Deuren SC (Milwaukee) (20)
45. Taft Stettinuius and Holister (Indy) (11)
46. Whyte Hurschboeck Dudek SC (WI) (14)
47. Reed Smith (Chicao, Philly, Pittsburgh) (20)
48. Weil Gotshal Manges (SV) (20)
49. Irell and Manella (LA) (20)
50. National Fuel Gas Company (Williamsville NY) (20)

Put NYC firms with 20 slots first, then those with 40 and 60. Of course, keep adjustments for things such as grades and selectivity.

[rinkrat19]

Oh god. Rink. This is your come-to-Jesus. You don't have a pitch. Your pitch is somewhere between ineffective and incompetent. Before OCI, before writing another cover letter you MUST:

1) find a few practicing associates in the practice areas you are pitching yourself for

2) get AT LEAST THREE in each practice area you are pitching you for to talk to you ON THE PHONE and listen you your pitch and give you constructive criticism. Do you hear what I am saying to you?

Jesus, I ain't got time for that shit between now and OCI! I've been told my interviewing delivery/demeanor/etc. is fine, at least, so can't I just get some tips on what a good pitch is (now that I know what it is apparently not)?

[IAFG]

Oh god. Rink. This is your come-to-Jesus. You don't have a pitch. Your pitch is somewhere between ineffective and incompetent. Before OCI, before writing another cover letter you MUST:

1) find a few practicing associates in the practice areas you are pitching yourself for

2) get AT LEAST THREE in each practice area you are pitching you for to talk to you ON THE PHONE and listen you your pitch and give you constructive criticism. Do you hear what I am saying to you?

Jesus, I ain't got time for that shit between now and OCI! I've been told my interviewing delivery/demeanor/etc. is fine, at least, so can't I just get some tips on what a good pitch is (now that I know what it is apparently not)?

You do have time. Tomorrow. Make it happen.

I am coming out of bar haze to mother hen you. If I can make time for this, you can make time for honing your pitch.

[rinkrat19]

Oh god. Rink. This is your come-to-Jesus. You don't have a pitch. Your pitch is somewhere between ineffective and incompetent. Before OCI, before writing another cover letter you MUST:

1) find a few practicing associates in the practice areas you are pitching yourself for

2) get AT LEAST THREE in each practice area you are pitching you for to talk to you ON THE PHONE and listen you your pitch and give you constructive criticism. Do you hear what I am saying to you?

Jesus, I ain't got time for that shit between now and OCI! I've been told my interviewing delivery/demeanor/etc. is fine, at least, so can't I just get some tips on what a good pitch is (now that I know what it is apparently not)?

You do have time. Tomorrow. Make it happen.

I am coming out of bar haze to mother hen you. If I can make time for this, you can make time for honing your pitch.

Seriously, I've got three (at least? I might be forgetting one) memos and a spreadsheet due in the next two weeks. I have to pack my shit and ship half of it back to Chicago. I have an interview tomorrow.
I can put in as much work after hours as needed but I really don't think I can take time to meet/talk with anyone during work hours.

[IAFG]

You might find yourself with plenty of time to think about you pitch next summer.

Ominousness intended.

[rinkrat19]

You might find yourself with plenty of time to think about you pitch next summer.

Ominousness intended.

I understand; I really do. Not blithely covering my ears over here, seriously.

[Roll Fizzlebeef]

Is this something we could email associates/partners about? I can't really meet people in target markets before schoo'.

[Anonymous User]

I was the OP who IAFG yelled at for having Stroock at #3. (3.73, LR). I hope this is a little better- I attempted to stick to DF's advice, and where I have deviated from placing firms when he specifically named them (like CWT), I was following his general strategy re: interview slots and median callback gpa. All the firms up to Sidley DC are New York.

Just trying to get some final feedback on my top 23 or so. After that I'm going to fill in other NY/DC firms I like, and maybe a 3rd (tertiary) market.

Firm ('11/'12) Median Slots Expected Class Size
Proskauer 3.42 20 29
Paul Hastings 3.61/3.47 20 13
Shearman 3.49 20 40
Dechert 3.55 20 17
OMM 3.67 20 16
Paul Weiss 3.73/3.66 40 81
STB 3.71 40 63
DPW 3.74 40 125
Ropes NY 3.82 40 28
Cravath 3.8 36 93
Kaye 3.45 40 21
Milbank 3.57/3.5 40 33
Weil 3.61/3.55 60 53
Cadwalader 3.7 40 30
Sidley DC
GDC DC
Jones Day DC
Latham DC
Skadden NY
Cleary NY
W&C
Covington DC
Wilmerhale DC.

I'd rather get interviews at the last three over Skadden and Cleary, if I have to choose, longshots though they are. Is it worth switching them or should they be safe where they are?


ETA: Whoops, forgot DC.

[IAFG]

Then make time for it. Schedule a call for when you're in the airport. Email some NU alums and see if they can talk to you before or after your office hours at your summer job. Work the time zones.

Sorry but lack of time is not an excuse. This is your first priority. Cut showering if you don't have time. Throw away the shit you planned to pack up with tender loving care if you don't have time. This is THE ONLY THING right now. This is not a dress rehearsal. This is game day. You know the problem. You have time to fix it. So fix it.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, this is not a minimum competency test. This is not a sociopath screener. This is your chance to sell you. Not to skate by without getting grilled, not to bat your eyelashes like it's your debutante ball, this is your chance pitch.

[echooo23]

When I submit my bids, it gave me an extra 3 "due to related offices." What does that mean?

[tdicks]

When I submit my bids, it gave me an extra 3 "due to related offices." What does that mean?

Some offices don't allow for multiple interviews. So if you bid multiple offices, you can only get one. Since two or three bids for the same office could only yield one interview slot, they give you extra bids.