School OCI Data Forum

[Anonymous User]

Chicago's SA firm placements included non-Vault firm placements

Another reason why comparing these "statistics" is stupid.

Not to mention MVPB have not released official data.

[bwv812]

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[Anonymous User]

especially given Duke's misleading 100% employed at graduation stats.

This is an entirely separate issue. We have been discussing actual data released from Career Services at Duke re the SA placements for the Class of 2011, and this data was confirmed by several individual posters.

[bwv812]

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[270910]

especially given Duke's misleading 100% employed at graduation stats.

This is an entirely separate issue. We have been discussing actual data released from Career Services at Duke re the SA placements for the Class of 2011, and this data was confirmed by several individual posters.

Yes, but what is the data? Does it show where every person worked, and has anyone confirmed that these non-V100 spots are real SA positions and not hourly or low-paid positions?

It's a list of names, jobs, and locations from 1-223 or so. ~40% are firms from the V100. To my knowledge nobody has bothered to pull the websites and NALP directory information on the rest of them.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, but what is the data? Does it show where every person worked, and has anyone confirmed that these non-V100 spots are real SA positions and not hourly or low-paid positions?

Yes, the actual data lists where every student works and the non-V100 spots are real SA posititons.

[Anonymous User]

So far, if I remember correctly, we have the following for hard stats:

Yale - 100% SA placement*
Harvard - 100% SA placement*
Stanford - 100% SA placement*
Columbia - 69% SA placement
NYU - 69% SA placement
Chicago - 69% SA placement
Berkeley - 40% SA placement
Virginia - XX% SA placement
Penn - XX% SA placement
Michigan - 50% SA placement
Northwestern - XX% SA placement
Duke - XX% SA placement
Cornell - 43% SA placement
Georgetown - XX% SA placement

*Potential placement.

I propose we fill in the stats for the rest of the T14 with actual hard data. Would people from the remaining schools do what they can to get some good information? This could be really helpful for future 0Ls deciding between schools.

Does anyone have any hard numbers for HYS? I know for a fact that Stanford's placement rate in OCI was less than 100%; they acknowledged this in a message that was sent to alumni. At Stanford's ASW, Dean Kramer was supposedly quoted as saying that Stanford only had two 2L's who hadn't lined up jobs, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were all SA positions. (Granted, if there were a substantial number of 2L's working in shitlaw, I doubt he would say something like that at ASW where disgruntled 2L's could call him on it. But it still strongly suggests that at least some Stanford 2L's struck out completely.) I wonder if people are a little too quick to assume that H and S are "safe" ITE. One way or another, it would be really nice to see some hard data.

[rayiner]

especially given Duke's misleading 100% employed at graduation stats.

This is an entirely separate issue. We have been discussing actual data released from Career Services at Duke re the SA placements for the Class of 2011, and this data was confirmed by several individual posters.

Yes, but what is the data? Does it show where every person worked, and has anyone confirmed that these non-V100 spots are real SA positions and not hourly or low-paid positions?

It's a list of names, jobs, and locations from 1-223 or so. ~40% are firms from the V100. To my knowledge nobody has bothered to pull the websites and NALP directory information on the rest of them.

Of the non-V100 SAs, the vast majority (80%+) seem to be either national boutiques (eg: Knobbe Martens) that pay near market ($145k) or regional firms (mostly NLJ250) that pay $100-135k. The rest seem to be small firms that probably pay $45-$60k.

I don't know why anybody thinks this is good news. Those folks that're working for non-V100 NLJ250 firms now would've gotten V100 a couple of years ago, and those folks that are now working PI or smallaw would've at least snagged an NLJ250 firm that'd let them pay down their loans.

[bwv812]

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[rayiner]

Of the non-V100 SAs, the vast majority (80%) seem to be either national boutiques (eg: Knobbe Martens) that pay near market ($145k) or regional firms that pay $100-135k. The rest seem to be small firms that probably pay $45-$60k.

Thank you. Much more helpful than blanket assurances from anonymous posters that all of these Duke non-v100 are "absolutely" legit SA positions.

The moral of this story is if you're median-ish, apply to smaller firms where you have ties. There aren't a lot of those jobs out there, but do exist, and seem to catch a few T14 people between those who make V100 and those who fall off a cliff.

[Core]

XOXO posted Penn was around 35%, but I do not believe any of the MVPB have released any official publications regarding last year's OCI.

Yea, I don't buy that either. XOXO takes every opportunity to bash Penn. I've heard 40-60% from current students, but I guess nobody here knows for sure.

[miamiman]

Of the non-V100 SAs, the vast majority (80%+) seem to be either national boutiques (eg: Knobbe Martens) that pay near market ($145k) or regional firms (mostly NLJ250) that pay $100-135k. The rest seem to be small firms that probably pay $45-$60k.

I don't know why anybody thinks this is good news. Those folks that're working for non-V100 NLJ250 firms now would've gotten V100 a couple of years ago, and those folks that are now working PI or smallaw would've at least snagged an NLJ250 firm that'd let them pay down their loans.

I'm assuming you've seen the data?

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, XOXO had this take on WUSTL: --LinkRemoved--

That's data compiled from the Class of 2009, which was interviewing in 2007 for SA 2008. It shows about a 12-13% placement rate in Vault 80 firms. You pretty much have to assume that it's worse today--interviewing in September 2007 was a pretty good (even if not perfect) time.

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, XOXO had this take on WUSTL: --LinkRemoved--

That's data compiled from the Class of 2009, which was interviewing in 2007 for SA 2008. It shows about a 12-13% placement rate in Vault 80 firms. You pretty much have to assume that it's worse today--interviewing in September 2007 was a pretty good (even if not perfect) time.

while I don't doubt the overall ballpark of the 12-13% number, this data is not 100% accurate. I personally know 1 person who started at Cleary and another at Jenner (Chicago) from class of 09. But I am sure that ITE, V100 placement would be ~10% or lower for WUSTL.

[rundoxierun]

Does anyone have any hard numbers for HYS? I know for a fact that Stanford's placement rate in OCI was less than 100%; they acknowledged this in a message that was sent to alumni. At Stanford's ASW, Dean Kramer was supposedly quoted as saying that Stanford only had two 2L's who hadn't lined up jobs, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were all SA positions. (Granted, if there were a substantial number of 2L's working in shitlaw, I doubt he would say something like that at ASW where disgruntled 2L's could call him on it. But it still strongly suggests that at least some Stanford 2L's struck out completely.) I wonder if people are a little too quick to assume that H and S are "safe" ITE. One way or another, it would be really nice to see some hard data.

umm.. call me naive but 2/~170=1%. Even if a ridiculously high number (~10-15%) have terrible or unpaid jobs that is still 84-89% with good positions. I dont know about you but considering the rest of the economy and the fact that Stanford isnt in the best location for legal jobs, I would call that safe.

[markymark]

Of the non-V100 SAs, the vast majority (80%) seem to be either national boutiques (eg: Knobbe Martens) that pay near market ($145k) or regional firms that pay $100-135k. The rest seem to be small firms that probably pay $45-$60k.

Thank you. Much more helpful than blanket assurances from anonymous posters that all of these Duke non-v100 are "absolutely" legit SA positions.

The moral of this story is if you're median-ish, apply to smaller firms where you have ties. There aren't a lot of those jobs out there, but do exist, and seem to catch a few T14 people between those who make V100 and those who fall off a cliff.

This is exactly what I have been seeing. People forget that there are a lot of solid non-v100 firms out there. While many of these are in secondary cities, there are definitely some in major markets (See Kasowitz in NYC for example).

[mec30]

especially given Duke's misleading 100% employed at graduation stats.

This is an entirely separate issue. We have been discussing actual data released from Career Services at Duke re the SA placements for the Class of 2011, and this data was confirmed by several individual posters.

Yes, but what is the data? Does it show where every person worked, and has anyone confirmed that these non-V100 spots are real SA positions and not hourly or low-paid positions?

It's a list of names, jobs, and locations from 1-223 or so. ~40% are firms from the V100. To my knowledge nobody has bothered to pull the websites and NALP directory information on the rest of them.

Are these just jobs out of OCI or totals for the entire school? Do non-V100 firms recruit at Duke?

[Anonymous User]

Are these just jobs out of OCI or totals for the entire school? Do non-V100 firms recruit at Duke?

I count between 40-50 non-Vault firms interviewing at Duke. There's a fair number more at the Duke CA/TX regional programs and through resume collect.

[270910]

Are these just jobs out of OCI or totals for the entire school? Do non-V100 firms recruit at Duke?

Many, many desirable non-vault firms interview at every school. The vault rankings for law firms aren't the end-all, be-all the way U.S. News (more or less) is for law schools.

[aryncita]

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[let/them/eat/cake]

if true, those duke #s are solid for ite.

Yeah, but what qualifies as SA for Duke's numbers? Hourly rates at small firms?


Weren't virtually all of Cornell's 43% placement V100? Even if not, it makes sense to compare the V100 SA placement rate, unless we know how each school is classifying/counting non-V100 private practice placements.

edit: it looks like all but 13 of Cornell's published SAs were in V100, for ~37% of the class. Compare to Duke's 39% in V100. The discrepancy in overall SA placement is what makes me wonder what Duke is doing and where these non-V100 students are working.

People aren't going to like this but one of the reaons why Duke is probably pulling this off is because their grads aim for markets in the South at a higher rate than a school like Penn. Southern markets view Duke as essentially a top 5 school (along with HY and UVA, with Stanford being in a weird spot) and they treat Duke students accordingly. A lot of these firms simply won't pop up in the V100 but they will pay their associates six figure salaries. Now a lot of people will bash Duke for putting people in these types of firms but the bottom line is that these firms are paying six figures to their hires (and in cities with low COL to boot). I've always thought it was unfair that Duke was grouped with Cornell, it essentially out places Cornell in almost every meaningful way.

except that their grads work south of the Mason-Dixon line in secondary markets. and, well, they have to be Duke graduates.

the first one is mostly a joke--different strokes for different folks and all. dead surious about the second one though. Duke . . . [shudders].

but still, good numbers ITE.

[Anonymous User]

Duke grads don't aim for markets in the South at high rates. The highest concentration of Duke grads go to NYC and then DC. They place into all of the top Vault firms: Cravath, Skadden, Sullivan & Cromwell, Davis Polk, Weil Gotshal, Simpson Thacher, Cleary, Covington, Kirkland. Even on their Class of 2010 2L SA report someone went to Wachtell.

[lawhawk]

Duke grads don't aim for markets in the South at high rates. The highest concentration of Duke grads go to NYC and then DC. They place into all of the top Vault firms: Cravath, Skadden, Sullivan & Cromwell, Davis Polk, Weil Gotshal, Simpson Thacher, Cleary, Covington, Kirkland. Even on their Class of 2010 2L SA report someone went to Wachtell.

This is what I thought too. Just because Duke is in the South doesn't mean many of it's grads get jobs there. I know very, very few stay in North Carolina (not sure of an exact percentage).

Again, does anyone have data on UNC?

[270910]

Duke grads don't aim for markets in the South at high rates. The highest concentration of Duke grads go to NYC and then DC. They place into all of the top Vault firms: Cravath, Skadden, Sullivan & Cromwell, Davis Polk, Weil Gotshal, Simpson Thacher, Cleary, Covington, Kirkland. Even on their Class of 2010 2L SA report someone went to Wachtell.

This is what I thought too. Just because Duke is in the South doesn't mean many of it's grads get jobs there. I know very, very few stay in North Carolina (not sure of an exact percentage).

Again, does anyone have data on UNC?

Rofl. Duke grads aim for the south less often than NYU grads. Granted. NYC and DC are probably their biggest / most popular destination markets. But ~40 members of the ~220 person class of 2011 stayed in North Carolina this summer alone, and many more were in various other southern states. There are also only Duke grads summering at 4 of the 8 NYC V10 this year - so I wouldn't get too puffy about their vault placement either. Yes, it was a bad year, and no, it doesn't mean Duke is a festering TTT in decline. Everyone is hurting - and I love Duke, great school, great placement, even the odd tolerable person from there. But the quoted is pretty hyperbolic.

[UnitarySpace]

This guy seems to have seen Harvard's OCI numbers.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=119919