NY GOES TO 180k! IT HAPPENED!!!! (CovingTTTon does a 180! Holder wept.) Forum

[Omerta]

Not sure why your post is anonymous, but the person directly said that it isn't just that "Atlanta is 'better'" but rather that it's specifically ties. Lots of people value family and such in a region very highly.

It's anon because I'm the same person who was discussing the TX lateral market above.

Okay, that's all well and good. But the person still has to consciously decide that family or whatever is worth $100k per year. That's all I was pointing out. You can buy a lot of plane tickets to visit whoever you want for that much money.

Except that's not the calculus that any lateral faces. It's (1) retake bar (2) adjust to new firm (3) hope that you stick around long enough to make up for any difference (4) if applicable, whether your spouse can/wants to land a new gig. If someone is choosing between summer offers, sure, it's something worth considering, but I think the decision process is more complex for a lateral.

Also, Houston might be the worst city in the United States.

[TLSModBot]

Also, Houston might be the worst city in the United States.

I think we're gonna need about 10-20 pages fighting over this and comparing to all other major U.S. cities, just to be safe.

[Big Shrimpin]

Let's get back to the important stuff:

SHAMING the TTT firms

PRAISING legends like YOSEMITE SAM YEMINGTON

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Not sure why your post is anonymous, but the person directly said that it isn't just that "Atlanta is 'better'" but rather that it's specifically ties. Lots of people value family and such in a region very highly.

It's anon because I'm the same person who was discussing the TX lateral market above.

Okay, that's all well and good. But the person still has to consciously decide that family or whatever is worth $100k per year. That's all I was pointing out. You can buy a lot of plane tickets to visit whoever you want for that much money.

Please show your math on how you come up with a $100k per year difference.

Multiple people two pages back said King & Spalding raises base $5-$10 per year. I don't know what their bonuses are. Compare that to actual lockstep cravath scale. If I overstated the difference, I apologize. It sounds to me like it will be significant.

Even then there's plenty of other reasons not to want to live in TX. Money is obviously a factor, but clearly for many people it's just one factor, and not necessarily the most important one. Its very narrow minded to "not understand" why someone would go to Atlanta just because Texas pays market.

Yes, people use a variety of factors to make every decision in their life, including where they will live.

I live in a smaller market than ATL and can confirm a 100K spread on my prior comp after bonus, but plenty of people choose to live here, because we do work fewer hours (well under 2000 on average), normal family or other ties/interests in the region and its offerings, inheritances (think land), COL, etc.

Do I want 100K more each year and think that I am underpaid? Sure, I do. Is the 180 scale going to affect this market? Maybe biglaw laterals like myself and certain people on the fence won't keep coming, but it will only minimally affect local recruiting (and will probably help marketing and partner retention).

All else equal, I'd pick 100K, but there are a number of financial and non-financial reason as to why I would not move and while you see partners working remotely on a semi-permanent basis from time-to-time, much, much less common at the associate level. Also, all else equal, I would pick a non-law firm job, so there's that too.

[SplitMyPants]

K&S ATL couldn't have been snobbier during my callback there a few years ago. The 5th and 6th years I interviewed with apparently thought I would be blinded by their sheer preftige.

Now I make more than they make; oh well

K&S DOMINATING the Gwinnett cafeteria scene

dont underestimate the Atl restaurant scene when comparing it to other secondary markets

[Anonymous User]

Not sure why your post is anonymous, but the person directly said that it isn't just that "Atlanta is 'better'" but rather that it's specifically ties. Lots of people value family and such in a region very highly.

It's anon because I'm the same person who was discussing the TX lateral market above.

Okay, that's all well and good. But the person still has to consciously decide that family or whatever is worth $100k per year. That's all I was pointing out. You can buy a lot of plane tickets to visit whoever you want for that much money.

Please show your math on how you come up with a $100k per year difference.

Multiple people two pages back said King & Spalding raises base $5-$10 per year. I don't know what their bonuses are. Compare that to actual lockstep cravath scale. If I overstated the difference, I apologize. It sounds to me like it will be significant.

Bonuses are a more significant portion of overall comp at the big two in Atlanta. They pay a flat amount plus a variable bonus for hours above target. Plenty of people are making bonuses well above NY market.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure why your post is anonymous, but the person directly said that it isn't just that "Atlanta is 'better'" but rather that it's specifically ties. Lots of people value family and such in a region very highly.

It's anon because I'm the same person who was discussing the TX lateral market above.

Okay, that's all well and good. But the person still has to consciously decide that family or whatever is worth $100k per year. That's all I was pointing out. You can buy a lot of plane tickets to visit whoever you want for that much money.

Please show your math on how you come up with a $100k per year difference.

Multiple people two pages back said King & Spalding raises base $5-$10 per year. I don't know what their bonuses are. Compare that to actual lockstep cravath scale. If I overstated the difference, I apologize. It sounds to me like it will be significant.

Bonuses are a more significant portion of overall comp at the big two in Atlanta. They pay a flat amount plus a variable bonus for hours above target. Plenty of people are making bonuses well above NY market.

K&S and A+B Atlanta really should just pay NYC market. I don't know why, but there's HSCCN etc. students taking those gigs over other markets. yet, despite logging New York hours, they make less than the associates in the New York office doing the exact same work and getting billed out at the same rate.

Come on, Hays Bros Ltd.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

WTF Happened to this thread? It's like a goddamned waiters' thread 24 hours after score release.

[Actus Reus]

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/06/22/all ... te-raises/

Allstate Corp.’s general counsel, Susan Lees:

“[O]ne must question the merits of a business model that compensates fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience, with a salary greater than that of a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in our organization,” states Ms. Lees’s letter, which was reviewed by Law Blog.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/06/22/all ... te-raises/

Allstate Corp.’s general counsel, Susan Lees:

“[O]ne must question the merits of a business model that compensates fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience, with a salary greater than that of a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in our organization,” states Ms. Lees’s letter, which was reviewed by Law Blog.

After college, I was actually working in business. I worked at a law firm during the summer, which was my only real exposure to the law. I worked with M&A lawyers at a time when M&A was booming, and the lawyers were working around the clock. My parting words to the lawyers were that I would never do what they did.

During law school, I was very focused on not working for a law firm. I wanted to work in business and have work-family balance, although I didn’t know that the term existed at the time. I would have ended up at a law firm, except I moved and I refocused my search on companies.

Fuck off Susan Lees.

[mushybrain]

One must question the merits of a business model that compensates a seasoned In-House Corporate Attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in an organization with a salary less than that of fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/06/22/all ... te-raises/

Allstate Corp.’s general counsel, Susan Lees:

“[O]ne must question the merits of a business model that compensates fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience, with a salary greater than that of a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in our organization,” states Ms. Lees’s letter, which was reviewed by Law Blog.

Because when you call at 7PM on Friday to say you need 130 hours worth of work done by Monday you're sure as shit not gonna do it. Also, student loans. Pay me 100K and I'll just go do some public interest and let some government program pay my loans off and you can have some Cooley grad overlook the fact that your target is about to get sued into oblivion.

Amidoingitrite?

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/06/22/all ... te-raises/

Allstate Corp.’s general counsel, Susan Lees:

“[O]ne must question the merits of a business model that compensates fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience, with a salary greater than that of a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in our organization,” states Ms. Lees’s letter, which was reviewed by Law Blog.

After college, I was actually working in business. I worked at a law firm during the summer, which was my only real exposure to the law. I worked with M&A lawyers at a time when M&A was booming, and the lawyers were working around the clock. My parting words to the lawyers were that I would never do what they did.

During law school, I was very focused on not working for a law firm. I wanted to work in business and have work-family balance, although I didn’t know that the term existed at the time. I would have ended up at a law firm, except I moved and I refocused my search on companies.

Fuck off Susan Lees.

This thread has already been won by someone else but this is a strong second place.

[Omerta]

Not sure why your post is anonymous, but the person directly said that it isn't just that "Atlanta is 'better'" but rather that it's specifically ties. Lots of people value family and such in a region very highly.

It's anon because I'm the same person who was discussing the TX lateral market above.

Okay, that's all well and good. But the person still has to consciously decide that family or whatever is worth $100k per year. That's all I was pointing out. You can buy a lot of plane tickets to visit whoever you want for that much money.

Please show your math on how you come up with a $100k per year difference.

Multiple people two pages back said King & Spalding raises base $5-$10 per year. I don't know what their bonuses are. Compare that to actual lockstep cravath scale. If I overstated the difference, I apologize. It sounds to me like it will be significant.

Bonuses are a more significant portion of overall comp at the big two in Atlanta. They pay a flat amount plus a variable bonus for hours above target. Plenty of people are making bonuses well above NY market.

K&S and A+B Atlanta really should just pay NYC market. I don't know why, but there's HSCCN etc. students taking those gigs over other markets. yet, despite logging New York hours, they make less than the associates in the New York office doing the exact same work and getting billed out at the same rate.

Come on, Hays Bros Ltd.

What's your source for K&S and A+B billing out at NY rates? To my knowledge, the only firm that used NY rates in Atlanta is Paul Hastings. That's been a huge point of conflict between PH and lawyers in the ATL office (and why the ATL office lost like 75% of its attorneys).

[cookiejar1]

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2016/06/22/all ... te-raises/

Allstate Corp.’s general counsel, Susan Lees:

“[O]ne must question the merits of a business model that compensates fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience, with a salary greater than that of a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in our organization,” states Ms. Lees’s letter, which was reviewed by Law Blog.

After college, I was actually working in business. I worked at a law firm during the summer, which was my only real exposure to the law. I worked with M&A lawyers at a time when M&A was booming, and the lawyers were working around the clock. My parting words to the lawyers were that I would never do what they did.

During law school, I was very focused on not working for a law firm. I wanted to work in business and have work-family balance, although I didn’t know that the term existed at the time. I would have ended up at a law firm, except I moved and I refocused my search on companies.

Fuck off Susan Lees.

This thread has already been won by someone else but this is a strong second place.

180 find.

[CTT]

ATL's bitching about Dallas is a reflection of how bitter many New Yorkers are that they decided to live in a place that's insanely expensive. What ATL doesn't seem to get is that Texas is a generally unattractive place to live, and yet there's lots of profitable work in energy, finance, bankruptcy (with low fuel prices), and IP. Therefore, the firms can and have to pay high rates to get top level talent to come to Texas.

Sometimes ATL has it right, on their bitching about how Texas associates don't deserve 180k, they're just horrendous ambassadors for stick up the butt New Yorkers who need to feel like they're doing the most important things to justify the misery of living in a Midtown shoe box. It's pathetic.

How about these fucx$ wake up and realize that at $1 million per partner to $180k to first year, the pay structure of Texas firms is actually a lot more reasonable than Wall Street firms where the average partner is bringing in 12 times as much as a mid level. I would have expected more sensibility towards the remaining gulf in pay from the bunch of New York "journalist" "lawyers" at ATL. But they pretty much just suck.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Meanwhile, those of us who don't give a shit about NYC, TX, Atlanta, or generally getting into pissing matches about cities are stuck calling out GCs for their hypocritical bullshit.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure why your post is anonymous, but the person directly said that it isn't just that "Atlanta is 'better'" but rather that it's specifically ties. Lots of people value family and such in a region very highly.

It's anon because I'm the same person who was discussing the TX lateral market above.

Okay, that's all well and good. But the person still has to consciously decide that family or whatever is worth $100k per year. That's all I was pointing out. You can buy a lot of plane tickets to visit whoever you want for that much money.

Please show your math on how you come up with a $100k per year difference.

Multiple people two pages back said King & Spalding raises base $5-$10 per year. I don't know what their bonuses are. Compare that to actual lockstep cravath scale. If I overstated the difference, I apologize. It sounds to me like it will be significant.

Bonuses are a more significant portion of overall comp at the big two in Atlanta. They pay a flat amount plus a variable bonus for hours above target. Plenty of people are making bonuses well above NY market.

K&S and A+B Atlanta really should just pay NYC market. I don't know why, but there's HSCCN etc. students taking those gigs over other markets. yet, despite logging New York hours, they make less than the associates in the New York office doing the exact same work and getting billed out at the same rate.

Come on, Hays Bros Ltd.

What's your source for K&S and A+B billing out at NY rates? To my knowledge, the only firm that used NY rates in Atlanta is Paul Hastings. That's been a huge point of conflict between PH and lawyers in the ATL office (and why the ATL office lost like 75% of its attorneys).

I was assuming they bill the ny associates out at Atlanta rates. But don't really know.

[Anonymous User]

Sheppard Mullin matched. All US offices.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

Meanwhile, those of us who don't give a shit about NYC, TX, Atlanta, or generally getting into pissing matches about cities are stuck calling out GCs for their hypocritical bullshit.

Preach.

[nealric]

One must question the merits of a business model that compensates a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in an organization with a salary less than that of fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience.

Not the case at my company. Such a person would have a base over $200k. Plus, such a person has lot more job security and works fewer hours with more autonomy than a new biglaw associate.

Also, keep in mind that biglaw associate compensation is all cash. Firms don't have pensions, stock grants/options, 401k matches, etc. In-house compensation structure is very tax advantaged compared to biglaw associate compensation.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

One must question the merits of a business model that compensates a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in an organization with a salary less than that of fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience.

Not the case at my company. Such a person would have a base over $200k. Plus, such a person has lot more job security and works fewer hours with more autonomy than a new biglaw associate.

Also, keep in mind that biglaw associate compensation is all cash. Firms don't have pensions, stock grants/options, 401k matches, etc. In-house compensation structure is very tax advantaged compared to biglaw associate compensation.

True, and some companies even have in-house programs that mirror the Biglaw hiring process. Not sure if they're gonna match $180k, but they were paying market, or close to it, before, with all the extra perks you mentioned. Just because Allstate is cheap and pays its in-house attorneys like shit doesn't mean that's universal across the board. Susan Lees is a disingenuous, hypocritical prick and should be shamed.

[Big Shrimpin]

One must question the merits of a business model that compensates a seasoned in-house corporate attorney with a decade or more of experience counseling senior leaders in an organization with a salary less than that of fresh law school graduates, who are devoid of any meaningful lawyering experience.

Not the case at my company. Such a person would have a base over $200k. Plus, such a person has lot more job security and works fewer hours with more autonomy than a new biglaw associate.

Also, keep in mind that biglaw associate compensation is all cash. Firms don't have pensions, stock grants/options, 401k matches, etc. In-house compensation structure is very tax advantaged compared to biglaw associate compensation.

True, and some companies even have in-house programs that mirror the Biglaw hiring process. Not sure if they're gonna match $180k, but they were paying market, or close to it, before, with all the extra perks you mentioned. Just because Allstate is cheap and pays its in-house attorneys like shit doesn't mean that's universal across the board. Susan Lees is a disingenuous, hypocritical prick and should be shamed.

SUMMON Monochromatic for said SHAMING

[nealric]

Just because Allstate is cheap and pays its in-house attorneys like shit doesn't mean that's universal across the board. Susan Lees is a disingenuous, hypocritical prick and should be shamed.

Yeah, in-house insurance defense isn't really the same thing as in-house counsel. You also can't compare F500 in-house to in-house at a small private company with one or two lawyers. It's like comparing biglaw to small-law.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Ms. Lees, who oversees the insurance company’s 1,400-person legal team, ends by reminding the law firms that clients like herself, “are fortunate to enjoy a robust legal marketplace in which competition prevails” and can reward those who innovate. “I encourage your firm to demonstrate prudence when considering the business decisions of firms such as Cravath,” she says. “To do otherwise is to ignore the realities of the marketplace and forego an opportunity to lead.”

So in this "competitive marketplace" where literally thousands of shitfirms would love to take Allstate's cases on for peanuts, they nonetheless keep telling Forrest & Gump LLP to fuck off in favor of Kirkland et. al.

LOL at this TTT Oklahoma dumbfuck highlighting the one variable that decimates her point. Maybe she doesn't hire the discount firms because she doesn't want to have to explain to the CEO that they lost a nine-figure case because some Simple Jack partner made an argument that dumb.