NY GOES TO 180k! IT HAPPENED!!!! (CovingTTTon does a 180! Holder wept.) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Need more speculation re: Fish. Is it possible that high-end patent boutiques will simply pay less than biglaw?

It doesn't sound totally implausible to me since the recruiting market has limited overlap (biglaw cares a lot about law school prestige and grades, patent firms care more about undergrad major, grades, and WE). It's entirely possible that a highly qualified patent prosecution candidate would not have offers from any biglaw firms. Seems less likely for litigation tho.

gp firms rarely hire patent pros associates fresh out of law school. they usually poach experienced associates (from ip firms or other gp firms) or hire them as tech specs/patent agents while they are in law school (wilmerhale, arent fox, foley, etc.). event the big ip firms (fish/finnegan), for the most part, do not hire pros associates out of their summer programs. patent prosecution budgets are just too small now 'n' days to train associates at first year billing rates.

its entirely possible that large ip firms with prosecution-heavy practices won't be able to keep up with gp firms in terms of compensation due to the reduction in prosecution budgets. fish seems like an exception though.

Agreed that patent pros is likely not profitable enough to justify a salary increase. What shops paid the full 160 lockstep for large scale patent pros? I'm sure a lot started at 160 but compressed advancement.

But patent lit remains profitable. Key questions in my mind are: (1) whether boutiques that do a lot of lit feel a need to compete on salary with GP firms to attract and retain talent, and (2) whether and how they'll handle price pressure on the pros side. One option would be to pay patent pros associates less, but I don't know if that's tenable.

i do not know of any prosecution-heavy ip firms that pay lockstep. many 160k (or above) to first years, but as you said they probably have compressed advancement. plus their bonuses (aside from fish maybe) are significantly lower than market.

and i'm not so sure that patent lit is that profitable for ip firms anymore. fish seems to make it work but finnegan's numbers are down, fitzpatrick's numbers are down, kenyon is hurting significantly.

OP here. Without giving away too many details that would out me, no-raise is due to a combination of everything already said here:
1) IP is not that profitable right now, pros nor lit. Firm had a good year but the future outlook is grim.
2) Prosecution would likely have to stay at $160k , creating tension in the associate ranks.
3) New recruits are mostly STEM people from mid ranked schools that most other Biglaw firms have no interest in. HYS EE/CS superstars weren't going to Fish anyway, so this won't change much.
4) Laterals recruits aren't hard to find either, especially with all the layoffs in IP across the industry in recent years.

If this is true, I have to imagine that when everything settles, Fish will have the highest PPP among firms that don't raise.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Why is ATL treating above-market comp firms as though they are behind Cravath? Keeping W&C on these lists is misleading.

Not when W&C midlevels are making $30-70k less than market, it's not.

[Bumi]

Why is ATL treating above-market comp firms as though they are behind Cravath? Keeping W&C on these lists is misleading.

Not when W&C midlevels are making $30-70k less than market, it's not.

Didn't realize they don't pay bonuses. I stand corrected.

[Big Shrimpin]

Why is ATL treating above-market comp firms as though they are behind Cravath? Keeping W&C on these lists is misleading.

Not when W&C midlevels are making $30-70k less than market, it's not.

Can't put a number on PREFTIGE.

[grand inquisitor]

Why is ATL treating above-market comp firms as though they are behind Cravath? Keeping W&C on these lists is misleading.

Not when W&C midlevels are making $30-70k less than market, it's not.

Can't put a number on PREFTIGE semi-realistic partnership prospects.

[Anonymous User]

Wh matched.

[Anonymous User]

Wh matched.

Confirmed. Great news

[Anonymous User]

Wh matched. All us offices plus summers effective July 1.

[Anonymous User]

Wh matched. All us offices plus summers effective July 1.

About. damn. time.

[Anonymous User]

Need more speculation re: Fish. Is it possible that high-end patent boutiques will simply pay less than biglaw?

It doesn't sound totally implausible to me since the recruiting market has limited overlap (biglaw cares a lot about law school prestige and grades, patent firms care more about undergrad major, grades, and WE). It's entirely possible that a highly qualified patent prosecution candidate would not have offers from any biglaw firms. Seems less likely for litigation tho.

gp firms rarely hire patent pros associates fresh out of law school. they usually poach experienced associates (from ip firms or other gp firms) or hire them as tech specs/patent agents while they are in law school (wilmerhale, arent fox, foley, etc.). event the big ip firms (fish/finnegan), for the most part, do not hire pros associates out of their summer programs. patent prosecution budgets are just too small now 'n' days to train associates at first year billing rates.

its entirely possible that large ip firms with prosecution-heavy practices won't be able to keep up with gp firms in terms of compensation due to the reduction in prosecution budgets. fish seems like an exception though.

Agreed that patent pros is likely not profitable enough to justify a salary increase. What shops paid the full 160 lockstep for large scale patent pros? I'm sure a lot started at 160 but compressed advancement.

But patent lit remains profitable. Key questions in my mind are: (1) whether boutiques that do a lot of lit feel a need to compete on salary with GP firms to attract and retain talent, and (2) whether and how they'll handle price pressure on the pros side. One option would be to pay patent pros associates less, but I don't know if that's tenable.

i do not know of any prosecution-heavy ip firms that pay lockstep. many 160k (or above) to first years, but as you said they probably have compressed advancement. plus their bonuses (aside from fish maybe) are significantly lower than market.

and i'm not so sure that patent lit is that profitable for ip firms anymore. fish seems to make it work but finnegan's numbers are down, fitzpatrick's numbers are down, kenyon is hurting significantly.

OP here. Without giving away too many details that would out me, no-raise is due to a combination of everything already said here:
1) IP is not that profitable right now, pros nor lit. Firm had a good year but the future outlook is grim.
2) Prosecution would likely have to stay at $160k , creating tension in the associate ranks.
3) New recruits are mostly STEM people from mid ranked schools that most other Biglaw firms have no interest in. HYS EE/CS superstars weren't going to Fish anyway, so this won't change much.
4) Laterals recruits aren't hard to find either, especially with all the layoffs in IP across the industry in recent years.

If this is true, I have to imagine that when everything settles, Fish will have the highest PPP among firms that don't raise.

I would think highest PPP and lowest leverage of firms that don't raise. Hard to believe things are that bad. Anyone heard anything about Finnegan?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what's going on with King & Spalding?

[Anonymous User]

Wh matched. All us offices plus summers effective July 1.

Denver to 180!

[Big Shrimpin]

why the FUCK am i in MFH

[Anonymous User]

Interesting amount of silence from Sheppard Mullin, Pillsbury, and Alston.

[Anonymous User]

ATL needs to start shaming Fish asap.

[El Pollito]

[youtube]f5G4hZOJSng[/youtube]

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what's going on with King & Spalding?

Wondering same. This is getting embarrassing considering their PPP and the hours that associates put in.

[Anonymous User]

ATL needs to start shaming Fish asap.

Maybe the reason they aren't getting Mr. Pedigree HYS EE/CS, and are instead stuck with Joe Blow, Esqwire from G-Dub, is because they haven't moved to 190k already.

Also, aren't most of the IP boutiques looking at a 1:1 to 2:1 associate to partner ratio as it is? Seems like no-raise is an admission that they aren't really competing with GP firms.

[Anonymous User]

Is Kasowitz now the most profitable firm to have not matched? (Avg. 1.9M PPP last two years)

[Anonymous User]

King & Spalding matches in Houston.

[BigZuck]

Interesting amount of silence from Sheppard Mullin, Pillsbury, and Alston.

Walk me through your thinking here, Anon. I don't think a baked goods company should be beholden to law firm salaries. Like, at all.

[Actus Reus]

Is Kasowitz now the most profitable firm to have not matched? (Avg. 1.9M PPP last two years)

didn't kasowitz lay off a bunch of attorneys a year ago

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Interesting amount of silence from Sheppard Mullin, Pillsbury, and Alston.

Pillsbury WinTTThrop is barely over $1M PPP. But for a firm that prides itself in being both NYC based and SF based they're gonna have to move now that both markets have.

[nahumya]

Interesting amount of silence from Sheppard Mullin, Pillsbury, and Alston.

Pillsbury WinTTThrop is barely over $1M PPP. But for a firm that prides itself in being both NYC based and SF based they're gonna have to move now that both markets have.

By "move now", I assume you mean to Grand Forks.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Interesting amount of silence from Sheppard Mullin, Pillsbury, and Alston.

Walk me through your thinking here, Anon. I don't think a baked goods company should be beholden to law firm salaries. Like, at all.

TBF, Entenmann's matched last week.