New associate fuck up thread (and tips for slacking) Forum

[Abbie Doobie]

The i-bankers I've worked with make a ton of mistakes/typos all the time. Although they have bad/worse hours, that's what makes me think i-banking might be better than law...it's hard to be 100% on all the time in law when you're working 12-14+ hours a day. But I could totally work 16 hours a day and not GAF. (And yes, the rest of the US still only working 8 hours a day...)

idk anyone personally who has a professional career and works 8 hours a day. engineers, sales, accountants, etc. they all seem to be clocking in at least 9-10 hours/day average. that's what i see anyway. other's views may vary, but it seems that the 8-hour work day is a flame in most careers.

[Anonymous User]

I was told the problem with typos is they make it harder for someone to trust your substantive work product, which makes sense if you're more junior. I agree a typo isn't a big deal though.

If someone does good work but you "don't trust it" because of spelling errors that's just dumb

I think the issue is a lot of the work we do isn't stuff with an obviously right or wrong answer so good vs bad is necessarily more subjective than if you were diagnosing an illness or doing math. I'm not denying that it's dumb to discount the value of work product on the basis of typos when it is obviously well written like how it's dumb to discount a good argument on the basis that the speaker stumbled on a few words.

I think the real reason why typos matter all comes back to the fact that it's a client service profession, and big law is expected to be the 5-star restaurant/resort. The difference between 5 star and a 3.5 or 4 star hotel is normally the small details. In law, all we're presenting our clients with most of the time are the mad ravings of a bunch of socially awkward semi-sociopathic nerds so having a typo on something is kind of like the chambermaid forgetting to put a chocolate mint on your pillow.

[SFSpartan]

I was told the problem with typos is they make it harder for someone to trust your substantive work product, which makes sense if you're more junior. I agree a typo isn't a big deal though.

If someone does good work but you "don't trust it" because of spelling errors that's just dumb

I think the real reason why typos matter all comes back to the fact that it's a client service profession, and big law is expected to be the 5-star restaurant/resort. The difference between 5 star and a 3.5 or 4 star hotel is normally the small details. In law, all we're presenting our clients with most of the time are the mad ravings of a bunch of socially awkward semi-sociopathic nerds so having a typo on something is kind of like the chambermaid forgetting to put a chocolate mint on your pillow.

While I generally agree with the analogy, it's not like people stop giving a fuck about typos just because you don't work in midlaw/shitlaw. I've gotten reamed for typos at my midlaw firm, and a junior lateral got blackballed from corporate work because of typos/other non-substantive issues.

The thing that first anon said about typos re: substantive work is spot on though.

[krads153]

The i-bankers I've worked with make a ton of mistakes/typos all the time. Although they have bad/worse hours, that's what makes me think i-banking might be better than law...it's hard to be 100% on all the time in law when you're working 12-14+ hours a day. But I could totally work 16 hours a day and not GAF. (And yes, the rest of the US still only working 8 hours a day...)

idk anyone personally who has a professional career and works 8 hours a day. engineers, sales, accountants, etc. they all seem to be clocking in at least 9-10 hours/day average. that's what i see anyway. other's views may vary, but it seems that the 8-hour work day is a flame in most careers.

I think it heavily depends on the market. If you're in NYC or some place like that, you may be right. 9 might be average in general. I think 10 is pushing it though unless you're in NYC. My parents were engineers/accountants for 40+ years (now retired) and they worked on average 8-9 hours a day, and then at some point, half days on Friday. The QOL is a lot better if you're in flyover than if you're in a big city. Plus you can still rake in good money as an engineer pretty much anywhere. When they had their own software business, it was like half days (if that) or working whenever you wanted. As a programmer you can also work from home or wherever you wanted - honestly, a pretty awesome job if you have the knack for it (which most lawyers don't).

[Abbie Doobie]

The i-bankers I've worked with make a ton of mistakes/typos all the time. Although they have bad/worse hours, that's what makes me think i-banking might be better than law...it's hard to be 100% on all the time in law when you're working 12-14+ hours a day. But I could totally work 16 hours a day and not GAF. (And yes, the rest of the US still only working 8 hours a day...)

idk anyone personally who has a professional career and works 8 hours a day. engineers, sales, accountants, etc. they all seem to be clocking in at least 9-10 hours/day average. that's what i see anyway. other's views may vary, but it seems that the 8-hour work day is a flame in most careers.

I think it heavily depends on the market. If you're in NYC or some place like that, you may be right. 9 might be average in general. I think 10 is pushing it though unless you're in NYC. My parents were engineers/accountants for 40+ years (now retired) and they worked on average 8-9 hours a day, and then at some point, half days on Friday. The QOL is a lot better if you're in flyover than if you're in a big city. Plus you can still rake in good money as an engineer pretty much anywhere. When they had their own software business, it was like half days (if that) or working whenever you wanted. As a programmer you can also work from home or wherever you wanted - honestly, a pretty awesome job if you have the knack for it (which most lawyers don't).

i think that market is largely irrelevant. flyover states aren't the bastion of qol that people romanticize about on tls/xo. i've worked in both settings and people seem to work equally as hard/long. i used to be engineer (in the midwest for a while then in some small town in the north east) and almost everyone came in around 9 and left around 7. engineers, managers, contracts admins, test lab guys (salaried), etc. the ones that didn't were eventually let go for not pulling their weight. these were people on your standard development/production project; the key players on time sensitive tasks worked a little bit more. plenty of them plugged in at home after leaving for the day.

my dad (an engineer in the upper midwest) - similar experience with his colleagues, my sister (an architect in the midwest) - same.

you mentioned that your parents are now retired and maybe that is some part of the disconnect. things used to be a lot better hour-wise for engineers. now companies expect their engineers to "live" their projects. self-employment is also another exception to the rule since you'll work as hard/long as you have to in order to be successful and bring in the amount of money you want, and is not dictated by what your employer expects of you.

[Anonymous User]

I was told the problem with typos is they make it harder for someone to trust your substantive work product, which makes sense if you're more junior. I agree a typo isn't a big deal though.

If someone does good work but you "don't trust it" because of spelling errors that's just dumb

I think the real reason why typos matter all comes back to the fact that it's a client service profession, and big law is expected to be the 5-star restaurant/resort. The difference between 5 star and a 3.5 or 4 star hotel is normally the small details. In law, all we're presenting our clients with most of the time are the mad ravings of a bunch of socially awkward semi-sociopathic nerds so having a typo on something is kind of like the chambermaid forgetting to put a chocolate mint on your pillow.

While I generally agree with the analogy, it's not like people stop giving a fuck about typos just because you don't work in midlaw/shitlaw. I've gotten reamed for typos at my midlaw firm, and a junior lateral got blackballed from corporate work because of typos/other non-substantive issues.

The thing that first anon said about typos re: substantive work is spot on though.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that. If anything, it's a fortoiri. If an Apple from Stand A costs 25 cents and an Apple from immediately adjacent Stand B costs 50 cents then the Apple from Stand B better not have more spots on it.

[Desert Fox]

[krads153]

The i-bankers I've worked with make a ton of mistakes/typos all the time. Although they have bad/worse hours, that's what makes me think i-banking might be better than law...it's hard to be 100% on all the time in law when you're working 12-14+ hours a day. But I could totally work 16 hours a day and not GAF. (And yes, the rest of the US still only working 8 hours a day...)

idk anyone personally who has a professional career and works 8 hours a day. engineers, sales, accountants, etc. they all seem to be clocking in at least 9-10 hours/day average. that's what i see anyway. other's views may vary, but it seems that the 8-hour work day is a flame in most careers.

I think it heavily depends on the market. If you're in NYC or some place like that, you may be right. 9 might be average in general. I think 10 is pushing it though unless you're in NYC. My parents were engineers/accountants for 40+ years (now retired) and they worked on average 8-9 hours a day, and then at some point, half days on Friday. The QOL is a lot better if you're in flyover than if you're in a big city. Plus you can still rake in good money as an engineer pretty much anywhere. When they had their own software business, it was like half days (if that) or working whenever you wanted. As a programmer you can also work from home or wherever you wanted - honestly, a pretty awesome job if you have the knack for it (which most lawyers don't).

i think that market is largely irrelevant. flyover states aren't the bastion of qol that people romanticize about on tls/xo. i've worked in both settings and people seem to work equally as hard/long. i used to be engineer (in the midwest for a while then in some small town in the north east) and almost everyone came in around 9 and left around 7. engineers, managers, contracts admins, test lab guys (salaried), etc. the ones that didn't were eventually let go for not pulling their weight. these were people on your standard development/production project; the key players on time sensitive tasks worked a little bit more. plenty of them plugged in at home after leaving for the day.

my dad (an engineer in the upper midwest) - similar experience with his colleagues, my sister (an architect in the midwest) - same.

you mentioned that your parents are now retired and maybe that is some part of the disconnect. things used to be a lot better hour-wise for engineers. now companies expect their engineers to "live" their projects. self-employment is also another exception to the rule since you'll work as hard/long as you have to in order to be successful and bring in the amount of money you want, and is not dictated by what your employer expects of you.

Are we really talking about programming here? Rarely do engineers, ime, work long hours, unless they are working at a start up/starting their own business. And starting salaries for programming is like 100k these days....which is pretty awesome straight out of undergrad with probably little to no debt. Back when I graduated college, it seemed like all of the programmers got 100k+ jobs (even with really shitty GPAs) in the Bay Area. And this was almost 10 years ago. I had a bunch of friends "work" 9 to 6, making 100k+ at bigger companies...then they quit to do start ups because the work at larger companies wasn't challenging/interesting enough and they didn't have a ton to do at work. When they did start ups, they worked a lot, but it was also their own business so they controlled their hours. A few of them sold their companies for $$$ too (in their 20s).

Also, architects have notoriously bad hours - so that's an aberration. Architecture requires a ton of schooling, work, etc. and they make little money with bad hours. The job opportunities have also been bad for like 20 years.

With accounting, you can easily get regular 40 hour work weeks if you don't work in public accounting/at a Big 4. Money isn't as good as engineering though, but it's easier to learn IMO and still has much better QOL than law.

[Desert Fox]

[Tiago Splitter]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

[krads153]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

Yep, there are also A LOT more accounting jobs in low COL flyover than law jobs. The thing about law is that you're probably stuck in an expensive place forever...

Summary - if you want QOL, don't go into law. HTH 0Ls.

[Anonymous User]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

The reason big law pays so much is inextricably linked to the cost of law school. If you look at a lot of the European offices of major firms, you'll find European JD's typically earn half of what US JD's do despite higher cost of living areas. The only explanation are student loans, so I don't think hours are why big law pays so much more than the big 4.

[fats provolone]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

The reason big law pays so much is inextricably linked to the cost of law school. If you look at a lot of the European offices of major firms, you'll find European JD's typically earn half of what US JD's do despite higher cost of living areas. The only explanation are student loans, so I don't think hours are why big law pays so much more than the big 4.

it's more that law is ridiculously profitable in the US compared to other countries

[Anonymous User]

Am I dumb for giving up a 85k accounting job (8-9 hours/day in NYC) to go to law school (CCN) debt free? I've got an SA lined up, so I figure even if I last 2-3 years in BL, I should break even in terms of opportunity cost (missed income/career advancement for 3 years in law school). Only thing is I want to get back to having a 40-50/hr week eventually, at like $150k salary in a legal capacity, and not sure if that's gong to be possible.

[Tiago Splitter]

If by "cost of law school" you mean the three year barrier to entry our system uses then sure. It's easier to get an accounting degree than a law degree. But the price of law school has nothing to do with the pay.

[Anonymous User]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

The reason big law pays so much is inextricably linked to the cost of law school. If you look at a lot of the European offices of major firms, you'll find European JD's typically earn half of what US JD's do despite higher cost of living areas. The only explanation are student loans, so I don't think hours are why big law pays so much more than the big 4.

it's more that law is ridiculously profitable in the US compared to other countries

I didn't know that. That would also explain it.

[BizBro]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

Sure entry level accounting is 50-60k in NYC at the big 4 accounting firms. But if you get your CPA and exit out within your first 3 years, you could easily pull 80k+ in some in-house accounting role.

[krads153]

Am I dumb for giving up a 85k accounting job (8-9 hours/day in NYC) to go to law school (CCN) debt free? I've got an SA lined up, so I figure even if I last 2-3 years in BL, I should break even in terms of opportunity cost (missed income/career advancement for 3 years in law school). Only thing is I want to get back to having a 40-50/hr week eventually, at like $150k salary in a legal capacity, and not sure if that's gong to be possible.

It's possible, but less likely these days than it was say ten years ago. Also you'll probably have to do 5 years or so in biglaw to go in house. And a lot of in house is not a regular 40 hour work week. And a lot of it is shit work.

I probably wouldn't leave for law, unless you were looking for a 3 year vacation. Law school was pretty fun IME, but then again I've always liked school.

If I were you, I'd look into moving to a cheaper COL but stay in accounting. With the insane rents these days, 85k in NYC isn't really doable without roommates, and who wants roommates when you're 30.

[Tiago Splitter]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

Sure entry level accounting is 50-60k in NYC at the big 4 accounting firms. But if you get your CPA and exit out within your first 3 years, you could easily pull 80k+ in some in-house accounting role.

But probably not in a low COL area. Meanwhile entry level law is 160-200k and you've got the same "just do a few years and exit to sweet in-house gig" story, which of course isn't always true in either profession.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Am I dumb for giving up a 85k accounting job (8-9 hours/day in NYC) to go to law school (CCN) debt free? I've got an SA lined up, so I figure even if I last 2-3 years in BL, I should break even in terms of opportunity cost (missed income/career advancement for 3 years in law school). Only thing is I want to get back to having a 40-50/hr week eventually, at like $150k salary in a legal capacity, and not sure if that's gong to be possible.

Eh. Depends if you like your accounting job. I'd rather be a lawyer. But from a pure lifestyle versus compensation perspective I don't think it's worth it.

[BizBro]

Accountants also bitch about their "tax season" hours which last two months which are still considerably less than biglaw normal.

Depends on the type of accounting. Big 4 is SPS for 50k 12 months a year. Burnout looks like biglaw's for a reason.

But if you want to make 50k in a low COL area and work 40 hours most weeks accounting can be a solid option.

Sure entry level accounting is 50-60k in NYC at the big 4 accounting firms. But if you get your CPA and exit out within your first 3 years, you could easily pull 80k+ in some in-house accounting role.

But probably not in a low COL area. Meanwhile entry level law is 160-200k and you've got the same "just do a few years and exit to sweet in-house gig" story, which of course isn't always true in either profession.

But then you have to go to law school for another 3 years at no income (and probably a shit ton of debt) to make this $160K (which is likely to be in NYC unless you have ties to a market paying secondary market).

By the time you're done paying law school loans, if you never went to law school, you're probably making mid 100s now as an accounting/finance manager in some f500 in NY + all the money you made in the in between years

[PennBull]

Meanwhile entry level law is 160-200k and you've got the same "just do a few years and exit to sweet in-house gig" story, which of course isn't always true in either profession.

You mean 190-200k?

NY TO 190

[20160810]

Hard work is not inherently virtuous or admirable, no matter how much boomers pretend it is.

I spent all of college thinking that everyone who worked a 40-hour week (or, god forbid, more) was a brainwashed drone too stupid to see that we're all going to die and luxury goods don't really matter. Like I honestly could not understand what would compel people to get an hours-intensive job instead of, like, making art. Now I work long hours, actually more or less enjoy it, and look down on people who prioritize leisure time. To this day I have no idea how that happened.

[fats provolone]

Hard work is not inherently virtuous or admirable, no matter how much boomers pretend it is.

I spent all of college thinking that everyone who worked a 40-hour week (or, god forbid, more) was a brainwashed drone too stupid to see that we're all going to die and luxury goods don't really matter. Like I honestly could not understand what would compel people to get an hours-intensive job instead of, like, making art. Now I work long hours, actually more or less enjoy it, and look down on people who prioritize leisure time. To this day I have no idea how that happened.

it's called brainwashing. i had similar, seemingly organic changes in thought and perspective while in the military. it's all a lie

[fats provolone]

see also cognitive dissonance