Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit Forum

[seriouslyinformative]

But the recruiters were in there!

Thanks for the advice,
OP

Jesus christ relax.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Hi,

I have family scattered across the US and was wondering how to express ties to a city in a cover letter? For example, I was thinking inserting it right after a sentence or two on why I was interested in the firm, but wasn't sure what to say besides my brother lives in Boston when trying to show ties: "My brother lives in Boston and I have enjoyed the city when I have visited"? That just sounds corny to me.

Thanks!

I would actually like to know the answer to a similar question. I have been advised to put the address of an aunt who lives in SF on my resume for SF firms--not calling it a permanent address on the resume, but letting the interviewer read the resume to say that it is my permanent address/where I grew up if they choose not to ask about it. I have been to SF and stayed at that address many times. If asked about it, I would emphasize that I have spent considerable time there.

Is this good advice or a bad idea? (In general, not specifically about SF.)

For either of these situations I would just suggest that you mention that you have close family ties to the area and are planning to move there after graduation. At least for me, that would suffice.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

What if an applicant does not put on his resume a part-time, non-legal job that he isn't proud of and had in law school to help pay bills (like salesperson or receptionist) - would you consider that lying? Even on a functional resume?

Not considered lying, but why are you not proud of this?? It would come across to me that you have drive and a strong work ethic.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Do biglaw firms really perceive older, non-traditional graduates (say, in their 30s and 40s) to be avoided because they're "somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you"?

No.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

But the recruiters were in there!

Thanks for the advice,
OP

Breathe man! It is not a big deal at all! Believe it or not, we recruiters really do care about you and want you to succeed. We are not out to point out all of your mistakes and faults so we can no offer you. Laugh about it as a goof and move on.

[Emma.]

How much would you say that great grades from a top school work as a substitute for ties in an area? I'm hoping to find work in California at OCI, but have pretty tenuous ties there. My spouse has family there, but that is it. Would it be crazy to primarily aim for Bay Area firms?

[lawfirmrecruiter]

How much would you say that great grades from a top school work as a substitute for ties in an area? I'm hoping to find work in California at OCI, but have pretty tenuous ties there. My spouse has family there, but that is it. Would it be crazy to primarily aim for Bay Area firms?

Great grades will help you at least get in the door to talk. After that it is up to you to convince the interviewers that you are serious about the firm and the area.

[romothesavior]

So first thing this morning I was supposed to be meeting with a partner to meet a client in one conference room, but went into the wrong conference room, where there was a sizeable meeting going on (think partners, several upcoming associates and the firm's legal recruiters). Heck, it could have even been about us summers. I just opened the door, said something like I don't think I'm in the right place, apologized, and left. Is this something I should apologize to anyone for? Like the recruiters at least? My gut says to just let it go, but thought you'd be the person to ask. The no-offer fear drives me to ask crazy questions.

My guess is you will be no-offered, but not for this.

[Anonymous User]

My main question is why do you want to transfer when it sounds like you are already well positioned to have a lock on a job in your desired city? If you transfer you run the risk of losing ground on solid grades and moving out of market. You probably have very valid reasons but you should balance them with what you are giving up.

My main reasons for this are:

1. A more academically challenging environment (can I actually say this in an interview? I'm thinking probably not)
2. A broader curriculum, especially in IP
3. Potential access to a greater number of Federal clerkships
4. A degree from a more prestigious school plus the slight prestige bump that comes with it

Reading what you're saying, it seems like law firms in my desired city would raise an eyebrow if I transferred from a school that placed well in that city, and still wanted to come back. Is that correct?

Was wondering if you could answer this - I'd really value having a recruiter's take on this situation.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

My main question is why do you want to transfer when it sounds like you are already well positioned to have a lock on a job in your desired city? If you transfer you run the risk of losing ground on solid grades and moving out of market. You probably have very valid reasons but you should balance them with what you are giving up.

My main reasons for this are:

1. A more academically challenging environment (can I actually say this in an interview? I'm thinking probably not)
2. A broader curriculum, especially in IP
3. Potential access to a greater number of Federal clerkships
4. A degree from a more prestigious school plus the slight prestige bump that comes with it

Reading what you're saying, it seems like law firms in my desired city would raise an eyebrow if I transferred from a school that placed well in that city, and still wanted to come back. Is that correct?

Was wondering if you could answer this - I'd really value having a recruiter's take on this situation.

I wish I could give you a concrete black or white answer on this but I really can't without actually talking to you about your situation in more detail. It sounds like you have really good reasons for transferring but you also need to consider the risk involved. (more challenging school could cause grades to suffer, is there IP opportunity in your desired market, would a Federal clerkship fit with your career goals, etc.) All of your reasons for going may well trump those risks but you should think about them.

Feel free to PM if you would like to discuss in more detail.

[duckmoney]

How much does political affiliation play into recruiting?

For example, if a student has had significant prior work experience working for a campaign, PAC, member of Congress, or organization with a definite partisan tilt. I assume that if you're applying to a place like Perkins Coie, listing "president of college democrats" might be good, but that's the only example I can think of. How are most other firms?

Interested in this as well.

[PDaddy]

1) If a candidate has litigated a major case pro se, and negotiated a six-figure settlement, should he put it on his resume.

2) If a candidate has a dearth of work experience in the three years prior to entering law school because of litigating said case would that hurt his/her chances?

Interesting experience but you will need to be able to back this up. At the least, cite the case so the recruiters and firms won't think you are using puffery . . .

Oh, it's bona fide. Thanks for the response!

[gibby]

Thank you so much for starting this informative thread. It has been very helpful. I apologize if this has been answered already, but I would like to pose it again.

I am a rising 3L who had an excellent 2L year, but did not land a 2L summer job. I am hoping to land an entry level at big law when I graduate next year (although I know that's extremely tough), and I have been advised by multiple career counselors at my school, as well as a couple of firm recruiters, that the best time to mail my resume to firms as a 3L would be early September. They have told me that most firms are only looking at 2Ls in August, and will not know their needs until after 2L oci and until after their summers get offers/accept offers.

Do you agree with this time frame? Or should I be sending out resumes and cover letters earlier? Thank you.

[warumnicht]

Thank you so much for starting this informative thread. It has been very helpful. I apologize if this has been answered already, but I would like to pose it again.

I am a rising 3L who had an excellent 2L year, but did not land a 2L summer job. I am hoping to land an entry level at big law when I graduate next year (although I know that's extremely tough), and I have been advised by multiple career counselors at my school, as well as a couple of firm recruiters, that the best time to mail my resume to firms as a 3L would be early September. They have told me that most firms are only looking at 2Ls in August, and will not know their needs until after 2L oci and until after their summers get offers/accept offers.

Do you agree with this time frame? Or should I be sending out resumes and cover letters earlier? Thank you.

I'm curious about this as well. Our career counselors told us just the opposite: to try to beat the OCI rush by doing our mailing in July. However, it seems logical that firms won't know their 3L hiring needs until the summer offers are squared away...

[Kendi]

. . . more challenging school could cause grades to suffer. . . .

I think it would be interesting to hear from students who transferred up the ranks (ala tier-1 to t-10) if the higher ranked school really is, or is not, more challenging (or perhaps about the same). As a recruiter, what have you heard from transfer students?

[ToTransferOrNot]

. . . more challenging school could cause grades to suffer. . . .

I think it would be interesting to hear from students who transferred up the ranks (ala tier-1 to t-10) if the higher ranked school really is, or is not, more challenging (or perhaps about the same). As a recruiter, what have you heard from transfer students?

On the first point, the overwhelming majority of transfer students say the new school isn't any more challenging, and that is born out by the grades received at the new school by many transfers. You're going to get a lot of people saying that is due to a number of factors like uncurved classes, the top performers from the new school being tied up in law review or just generally not trying very hard anymore, etc., and there's just no way to actually prove this one way or the other.

From the recruiting angle, I can say that as a practical matter, I certainly do not have the same job options open to me with my class rank as a transfer that I would have had open to me if I was originally at the school. Other transfers I've talked to generally feel the same. Doesn't mean the job options aren't good, but there are people I know who would be as close as you can be to WLRK locks - based on post-transfer grades - who struggle to get any V5-10/super-boutique interviews through the 3L or clerkship hiring process. Obviously, some of that problem is due to the fact that transfers haven't had a chance to prove themselves for the biggest boat (2L OCI), but I imagine firms do have a "1L grades matter more than 2L/3L grades, even when we're talking about hiring outside of 2L OCI" perspective.

Would love to get recruiter's perspective on this.

[Anonymous User]

What if an applicant does not put on his resume a part-time, non-legal job that he isn't proud of and had in law school to help pay bills (like salesperson or receptionist) - would you consider that lying? Even on a functional resume?

Not considered lying, but why are you not proud of this?? It would come across to me that you have drive and a strong work ethic.

I have extensive work experience that includes several fancy job titles, so the entry level office job would really stand out. It would raise questions about how my career veered off course (layoff) and why I wasn't able to get it back on track (I wish I knew).

Also I'm just not proud of it at all. Embarrassed, actually. I wouldn't want to give recruiters that job to talk about during interviews. (Although if I was asked to give a chronological work history, I would obviously list that job.)

[lawfirmrecruiter]

How much does political affiliation play into recruiting?

For example, if a student has had significant prior work experience working for a campaign, PAC, member of Congress, or organization with a definite partisan tilt. I assume that if you're applying to a place like Perkins Coie, listing "president of college democrats" might be good, but that's the only example I can think of. How are most other firms?

Interested in this as well.

For us it really does not play into recruiting very much. We have both sides equally represented so it does not really sway one way or the other.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Thank you so much for starting this informative thread. It has been very helpful. I apologize if this has been answered already, but I would like to pose it again.

I am a rising 3L who had an excellent 2L year, but did not land a 2L summer job. I am hoping to land an entry level at big law when I graduate next year (although I know that's extremely tough), and I have been advised by multiple career counselors at my school, as well as a couple of firm recruiters, that the best time to mail my resume to firms as a 3L would be early September. They have told me that most firms are only looking at 2Ls in August, and will not know their needs until after 2L oci and until after their summers get offers/accept offers.

Do you agree with this time frame? Or should I be sending out resumes and cover letters earlier? Thank you.

Well, at this point firms are pretty focused on summers and gearing up for 2L OCI. That said, I think students are wise to take a two-front approach. Send resumes in early September and follow up with your top choices in November. The recruiting cycle will have slowed down by then and the firms will know how many 3Ls they need to fill the gaps.

Of course, in my case, we have removed ourselves completely from this process. We are accepting applications from 3Ls right now for our Fall Apprentice program. PM me if you would like details.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

. . . more challenging school could cause grades to suffer. . . .

I think it would be interesting to hear from students who transferred up the ranks (ala tier-1 to t-10) if the higher ranked school really is, or is not, more challenging (or perhaps about the same). As a recruiter, what have you heard from transfer students?

On the first point, the overwhelming majority of transfer students say the new school isn't any more challenging, and that is born out by the grades received at the new school by many transfers. You're going to get a lot of people saying that is due to a number of factors like uncurved classes, the top performers from the new school being tied up in law review or just generally not trying very hard anymore, etc., and there's just no way to actually prove this one way or the other.

From the recruiting angle, I can say that as a practical matter, I certainly do not have the same job options open to me with my class rank as a transfer that I would have had open to me if I was originally at the school. Other transfers I've talked to generally feel the same. Doesn't mean the job options aren't good, but there are people I know who would be as close as you can be to WLRK locks - based on post-transfer grades - who struggle to get any V5-10/super-boutique interviews through the 3L or clerkship hiring process. Obviously, some of that problem is due to the fact that transfers haven't had a chance to prove themselves for the biggest boat (2L OCI), but I imagine firms do have a "1L grades matter more than 2L/3L grades, even when we're talking about hiring outside of 2L OCI" perspective.

Would love to get recruiter's perspective on this.

It is harder for transfer students for a variety of reasons. Especially with OCI moving further into summer now. Some firms do have a 1L grades only matter (not us) and that can cause a problem for students for exactly the reason you mention. That said, we have hired many transfers and it has never really been a negative.

[missinglink]

Do you have any general tips for transfer students? What are some of the better answers for the inevitable "why did you transfer?" question?

I imagine part of the battle is being selective in one's bidding, and not to overbid at places that probably wouldn't have given you a second whiff at your old school.

[Anonymous User]

I have a question: how does Firm A view working at Firm B (when A and B are competitors in the same, smaller level market)? For instance, the main market where I'm looking has 5 main firms, 4 that really recruit at my school. If I work at one of the main 4, will that hurt/help my chances at an SA position with one of the others?

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Do you have any general tips for transfer students? What are some of the better answers for the inevitable "why did you transfer?" question?

I imagine part of the battle is being selective in one's bidding, and not to overbid at places that probably wouldn't have given you a second whiff at your old school.

Hmmm. Good answers - to be in the market, to focus on a specific area, to improve opportunities, etc.

Most of all, just be honest. You probably have excellent reasons for switching. Just tell those and don't second guess your decisions or stress about wording it right.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

I have a question: how does Firm A view working at Firm B (when A and B are competitors in the same, smaller level market)? For instance, the main market where I'm looking has 5 main firms, 4 that really recruit at my school. If I work at one of the main 4, will that hurt/help my chances at an SA position with one of the others?

It shouldn't. Our market has splits all the time and we have all shared recruits. We understand that we are all as different as the students we hire and the student needs to decide which is the right place for them. It is part of my job to convince you that my firm is the right firm.

[stratocophic]

I have a question: how does Firm A view working at Firm B (when A and B are competitors in the same, smaller level market)? For instance, the main market where I'm looking has 5 main firms, 4 that really recruit at my school. If I work at one of the main 4, will that hurt/help my chances at an SA position with one of the others?

It shouldn't. Our market has splits all the time and we have all shared recruits. We understand that we are all as different as the students we hire and the student needs to decide which is the right place for them. It is part of my job to convince you that my firm is the right firm.

Can you say a little bit about the mechanics of splitting? I'm likely to end up doing it (I hope) since just about every firm in your market only has a 6 week program - how does it change the calculus in deciding who to take? Offer rates look low there too, is that because of splitting or are people just falling through the cracks/getting owned by firms that are having fights to the death for spots? How do firms view splitting between 2 cities, does that make y'all wary about a person's desire to be in that market? As always, thanks so much.