2021 Special Bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

CWT time and time again proving that it's the shittiest NY-based biglaw firm. 8 year associate track, 2 year counsel track, and then non-equity track. History of screamers. Salary reductions during the pandemic (first mover (or close to), even). And, now, an awful retention bonus timeline. I'd take flight to another firm ASAP if I were a CWT associate.

CWT pretty consistently drags their feet on every comp increase announcement, and pretty consistently nickels and dimes associates when they do announce. I actually expected to wait another week at least for this announcement, but not at all surprised by the delayed payment timing. They didn't even formally announce the COVID bonus scale for fear of negative press (i.e. because it wasn't market), and only announced they were paying it 3 days before annual bonuses were paid in February. The worst thing though, was that they announced an arbitrary hours threshold for backpay AFTER THE YEAR WAS OVER (which screwed over one of their core practice groups). So adding all that to the fact they were (I think) the first to announce salary cuts last spring and yeah, not great.

All that said, I think the screamers rep is a bit dated. Dennis Block left for GT years ago.

[Anonymous User]

Still can’t comprehend how Jones Day maintains its vault rank while never going near any of this stuff.

As a JD associate, it is infuriating. I’m in a secondary market so don’t have other good options to get paid more. If I was in a market-paying city I would have been gone long ago.

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

[Buglaw]

Still can’t comprehend how Jones Day maintains its vault rank while never going near any of this stuff.

As a JD associate, it is infuriating. I’m in a secondary market so don’t have other good options to get paid more. If I was in a market-paying city I would have been gone long ago.

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

I don't know why anyone works at Jones Day. When I was at a V5, it wasn't super uncommon for law students to tell us they were deciding between us and JD. I even know some candidates that selected JD over us. I just don't understand why people work for that low rent firm.

[veers]

Still can’t comprehend how Jones Day maintains its vault rank while never going near any of this stuff.

As a JD associate, it is infuriating. I’m in a secondary market so don’t have other good options to get paid more. If I was in a market-paying city I would have been gone long ago.

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

I don't know why anyone works at Jones Day. When I was at a V5, it wasn't super uncommon for law students to tell us they were deciding between us and JD. I even know some candidates that selected JD over us. I just don't understand why people work for that low rent firm.

You honestly find this difficult to understand? In an industry full of miserable people, some of whom are billing 3,000 hours and hating their lives, you find it crazy that someone might be willing to take a small pay cut to pick a group and firm that they think may offer them a better experience and lifestyle? What I don't understand are completely miserable and overworked people who are amazed that someone might even consider happily, and I mean Happily!, taking a pay cut in hope of finding a more sustainable and fulfilling job, whether that be at JD or anywhere else.

[Anonymous User]

Still can’t comprehend how Jones Day maintains its vault rank while never going near any of this stuff.

As a JD associate, it is infuriating. I’m in a secondary market so don’t have other good options to get paid more. If I was in a market-paying city I would have been gone long ago.

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

I don't know why anyone works at Jones Day. When I was at a V5, it wasn't super uncommon for law students to tell us they were deciding between us and JD. I even know some candidates that selected JD over us. I just don't understand why people work for that low rent firm.

You honestly find this difficult to understand? In an industry full of miserable people, some of whom are billing 3,000 hours and hating their lives, you find it crazy that someone might be willing to take a small pay cut to pick a group and firm that they think may offer them a better experience and lifestyle? What I don't understand are completely miserable and overworked people who are amazed that someone might even consider happily, and I mean Happily!, taking a pay cut in hope of finding a more sustainable and fulfilling job, whether that be at JD or anywhere else.

JD is not a lifestyle firm. Everyone I know who works there bills as much as me. The fact that people fall for the garbage being spewed by JD is mystifying to me.

[Anonymous User]

MoFo associate here thinking this delay is so typical. No hours threshold for NY; hours threshold for SF. Took away associates’ allotted vacation last year with zero notice after they had to pay out the special bonuses to keep up with market. Honestly not sure why anyone works here instead of Fenwick or Orrick at this point.

Yikes is MoFo losing their status even in SF?

[Pulsar]

People used to joke that it was Jones Day, Night, and Weekend lol

[veers]

Still can’t comprehend how Jones Day maintains its vault rank while never going near any of this stuff.

As a JD associate, it is infuriating. I’m in a secondary market so don’t have other good options to get paid more. If I was in a market-paying city I would have been gone long ago.

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

I don't know why anyone works at Jones Day. When I was at a V5, it wasn't super uncommon for law students to tell us they were deciding between us and JD. I even know some candidates that selected JD over us. I just don't understand why people work for that low rent firm.

You honestly find this difficult to understand? In an industry full of miserable people, some of whom are billing 3,000 hours and hating their lives, you find it crazy that someone might be willing to take a small pay cut to pick a group and firm that they think may offer them a better experience and lifestyle? What I don't understand are completely miserable and overworked people who are amazed that someone might even consider happily, and I mean Happily!, taking a pay cut in hope of finding a more sustainable and fulfilling job, whether that be at JD or anywhere else.

JD is not a lifestyle firm. Everyone I know who works there bills as much as me. The fact that people fall for the garbage being spewed by JD is mystifying to me.

Compared to a V5, JD is absolute a lifestyle firm. There is going to be a huge disparity between average JD hours and average slave labor conditions at Cravath. I'm not sure average V5 associates internalize how much worse they have it than everyone else. Billing 2500 hours at a V30 and threaten to immediately quit unless they lighten your load? They will try and work with you. Billing 2500 and threaten to quite at Cravath? They will help you put your belongings in a box and walk you out the door.

[Anonymous User]

MoFo associate here thinking this delay is so typical. No hours threshold for NY; hours threshold for SF. Took away associates’ allotted vacation last year with zero notice after they had to pay out the special bonuses to keep up with market. Honestly not sure why anyone works here instead of Fenwick or Orrick at this point.

Yikes is MoFo losing their status even in SF?

MoFo started their class of 2020 associates in February 2021 and also hasn't matched so.....

[Anonymous User]

Freshfields matched

[Anonymous User]

As a JD associate, it is infuriating. I’m in a secondary market so don’t have other good options to get paid more. If I was in a market-paying city I would have been gone long ago.

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

I don't know why anyone works at Jones Day. When I was at a V5, it wasn't super uncommon for law students to tell us they were deciding between us and JD. I even know some candidates that selected JD over us. I just don't understand why people work for that low rent firm.

You honestly find this difficult to understand? In an industry full of miserable people, some of whom are billing 3,000 hours and hating their lives, you find it crazy that someone might be willing to take a small pay cut to pick a group and firm that they think may offer them a better experience and lifestyle? What I don't understand are completely miserable and overworked people who are amazed that someone might even consider happily, and I mean Happily!, taking a pay cut in hope of finding a more sustainable and fulfilling job, whether that be at JD or anywhere else.

JD is not a lifestyle firm. Everyone I know who works there bills as much as me. The fact that people fall for the garbage being spewed by JD is mystifying to me.

Compared to a V5, JD is absolute a lifestyle firm. There is going to be a huge disparity between average JD hours and average slave labor conditions at Cravath. I'm not sure average V5 associates internalize how much worse they have it than everyone else. Billing 2500 hours at a V30 and threaten to immediately quit unless they lighten your load? They will try and work with you. Billing 2500 and threaten to quite at Cravath? They will help you put your belongings in a box and walk you out the door.

Idk that there's really any truth or evidence behind this other than what you assume to be true? I'm pacing for well over 2,500 at a lower ranked firm and know others that have had multiple full years over that pace. They may say they'll work with you or whatever if you complain but nothing really comes of it. I also doubt Cravath would just gladly let some mid-level walk if they complained about workload...don't they not really hire laterals? I mean if you're a halfway decent mid-level or senior I doubt the partners you work with want you to quit unless it's a true up or out firm and you're going to be "out" soon (and I think true up or out is much less common than it used to be).

And yeah I really doubt Jones Day is materially better lifestyle-wise than much of the V5, although that's going to vary from practice to practice and even partner to partner at each firm. Also don't they still have business formal dress?

[Anonymous User]

Freshfields matched

*Fre$$$$hfield$$$$

[Anonymous User]

MoFo associate here thinking this delay is so typical. No hours threshold for NY; hours threshold for SF. Took away associates’ allotted vacation last year with zero notice after they had to pay out the special bonuses to keep up with market. Honestly not sure why anyone works here instead of Fenwick or Orrick at this point.

Yikes is MoFo losing their status even in SF?

MoFo started their class of 2020 associates in February 2021 and also hasn't matched so.....

Yeah, it’s a shame. MoFo will eventually match, but it seems as though senior management is tone deaf when it comes to keeping associates happy.

[Buglaw]

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

I don't know why anyone works at Jones Day. When I was at a V5, it wasn't super uncommon for law students to tell us they were deciding between us and JD. I even know some candidates that selected JD over us. I just don't understand why people work for that low rent firm.

You honestly find this difficult to understand? In an industry full of miserable people, some of whom are billing 3,000 hours and hating their lives, you find it crazy that someone might be willing to take a small pay cut to pick a group and firm that they think may offer them a better experience and lifestyle? What I don't understand are completely miserable and overworked people who are amazed that someone might even consider happily, and I mean Happily!, taking a pay cut in hope of finding a more sustainable and fulfilling job, whether that be at JD or anywhere else.

JD is not a lifestyle firm. Everyone I know who works there bills as much as me. The fact that people fall for the garbage being spewed by JD is mystifying to me.

Compared to a V5, JD is absolute a lifestyle firm. There is going to be a huge disparity between average JD hours and average slave labor conditions at Cravath. I'm not sure average V5 associates internalize how much worse they have it than everyone else. Billing 2500 hours at a V30 and threaten to immediately quit unless they lighten your load? They will try and work with you. Billing 2500 and threaten to quite at Cravath? They will help you put your belongings in a box and walk you out the door.

Idk that there's really any truth or evidence behind this other than what you assume to be true? I'm pacing for well over 2,500 at a lower ranked firm and know others that have had multiple full years over that pace. They may say they'll work with you or whatever if you complain but nothing really comes of it. I also doubt Cravath would just gladly let some mid-level walk if they complained about workload...don't they not really hire laterals? I mean if you're a halfway decent mid-level or senior I doubt the partners you work with want you to quit unless it's a true up or out firm and you're going to be "out" soon (and I think true up or out is much less common than it used to be).

And yeah I really doubt Jones Day is materially better lifestyle-wise than much of the V5, although that's going to vary from practice to practice and even partner to partner at each firm. Also don't they still have business formal dress?

Yeah, this is definitely not true. At my V5 they would show us median numbers every year and they were always between 2000-2100 a year. somewhere between 2200-2300 would put you in the top 25% for billers. I have no idea where this myth came from that everyone is billing 2500 hours a year or some garbage. Certainly some people might bill 2500, and every year there were usually like 5-15 people above 2900 hours. Admittedly, this was two years ago an I know people have been getting crushed in the pandemic, so this year might be different. But, I HIGHLY doubt these sorts of numbers are any more than what JD associates in major markets are putting up.

[veers]

Does anybody there address this at all or does it just get ignored?

But yeah not understanding why the associates taking the vault survey never both to punish them for this nonsense

Market changes in comp are never, ever acknowledged by management. Sometimes changes in market comp result in letters sent to associates increasing their annual pay. But definitely no bonuses and never in the amounts paid by all the other firms. It might be different in the major markets but in my secondary market that’s how it’s always been.

The JD comp thread shows that most folks are underpaid.

I don't know why anyone works at Jones Day. When I was at a V5, it wasn't super uncommon for law students to tell us they were deciding between us and JD. I even know some candidates that selected JD over us. I just don't understand why people work for that low rent firm.

You honestly find this difficult to understand? In an industry full of miserable people, some of whom are billing 3,000 hours and hating their lives, you find it crazy that someone might be willing to take a small pay cut to pick a group and firm that they think may offer them a better experience and lifestyle? What I don't understand are completely miserable and overworked people who are amazed that someone might even consider happily, and I mean Happily!, taking a pay cut in hope of finding a more sustainable and fulfilling job, whether that be at JD or anywhere else.

JD is not a lifestyle firm. Everyone I know who works there bills as much as me. The fact that people fall for the garbage being spewed by JD is mystifying to me.

Compared to a V5, JD is absolute a lifestyle firm. There is going to be a huge disparity between average JD hours and average slave labor conditions at Cravath. I'm not sure average V5 associates internalize how much worse they have it than everyone else. Billing 2500 hours at a V30 and threaten to immediately quit unless they lighten your load? They will try and work with you. Billing 2500 and threaten to quite at Cravath? They will help you put your belongings in a box and walk you out the door.

Idk that there's really any truth or evidence behind this other than what you assume to be true? I'm pacing for well over 2,500 at a lower ranked firm and know others that have had multiple full years over that pace. They may say they'll work with you or whatever if you complain but nothing really comes of it. I also doubt Cravath would just gladly let some mid-level walk if they complained about workload...don't they not really hire laterals? I mean if you're a halfway decent mid-level or senior I doubt the partners you work with want you to quit unless it's a true up or out firm and you're going to be "out" soon (and I think true up or out is much less common than it used to be).

And yeah I really doubt Jones Day is materially better lifestyle-wise than much of the V5, although that's going to vary from practice to practice and even partner to partner at each firm. Also don't they still have business formal dress?

If you are billing 2500 at a lower ranked firm that is going to be your own fault. Turn away work. Make clear that 2500 isn't sustainable for you. Force them to choose between having you bill 2100 and losing you entirely. If you try to do that to Cravath remember that they have scores of Harvard law grads lining up to replace you. The long and short is that Willkie needs you and Cravath doesn't, which gives you leverage at Willkie (or JD) and no leverage at Cravath. But, to get a good deal, you need to credibly demonstrate that you are willing to walk.

[Anonymous User]

Winston match, June and September, have to be on track for hours as of end of May and August but can make it up if you hit year end hours.

High hours bonuses are also being significantly increased for year end bonuses, no details on that though.

[Anonymous User]

Winston & Strawn match, 50/50 payout June and September, annualized 1900 hours requirement, can catch up with September payment

[Sackboy]

I think the main appeal of JD are (1) its filled with a ton of conservatives, and (2) it has a one-tier partnership with massive partnership classes (named 50 new equity partners in 2020).

[Anonymous User]

If you are billing 2500 at a lower ranked firm that is going to be your own fault. Turn away work. Make clear that 2500 isn't sustainable for you. Force them to choose between having you bill 2100 and losing you entirely. If you try to do that to Cravath remember that they have scores of Harvard law grads lining up to replace you. The long and short is that Willkie needs you and Cravath doesn't, which gives you leverage at Willkie (or JD) and no leverage at Cravath. But, to get a good deal, you need to credibly demonstrate that you are willing to walk.

That's just how busy our group is right now. Everyone in my group is swamped; there's nowhere else for the work to go. I push back where I can and have successfully fought off deals in past years, but we are just getting destroyed as a group at the moment.

Also a fresh Havard law grad is pretty worthless for staffing an ongoing deal. And like I said, Cravath is known for promoting within and not really hitting the lateral market, and even to the extent they do it still costs them money to hire people and there will almost universally be a transition period. It's pretty much always costly to a firm to lose a productive associate.

[RokosBasilisk2049]

MoFo associate here thinking this delay is so typical. No hours threshold for NY; hours threshold for SF. Took away associates’ allotted vacation last year with zero notice after they had to pay out the special bonuses to keep up with market. Honestly not sure why anyone works here instead of Fenwick or Orrick at this point.

Yikes is MoFo losing their status even in SF?

There needs to be a comprehensive tracking sheet that logs all of the ways that firms have screwed over associates during the past year. Mostly I just want more CovingTTTTon-esque memes, but maybe if we name and shame enough the greedy partner gremlins might actually get off atop their piles of gold to throw a few handfuls to us bottom-dwellers going forward.

I, for one, would vow to use information in such tracking sheet to shit all over any offending firm anytime its name came up in discussion so all such misdeeds would populate the google searches of every starry-eyed law student's OCI-induced search for validation.

[Anonymous User]

MoFo associate here thinking this delay is so typical. No hours threshold for NY; hours threshold for SF. Took away associates’ allotted vacation last year with zero notice after they had to pay out the special bonuses to keep up with market. Honestly not sure why anyone works here instead of Fenwick or Orrick at this point.

Yikes is MoFo losing their status even in SF?

Also curious

[Anonymous User]

What is S&C doing? What are they waiting for? I'm totally pissed off.

[RokosBasilisk2049]

What is S&C doing? What are they waiting for? I'm totally pissed off.

Isn't it just a forgone conclusion that S&C is going to match? It's the second richest BL firm behind Wachtell and all of its peers have matched. It's clearly reputational suicide not to match.

[Anonymous User]

What is S&C doing? What are they waiting for? I'm totally pissed off.

Isn't it just a forgone conclusion that S&C is going to match? It's the second richest BL firm behind Wachtell and all of its peers have matched. It's clearly reputational suicide not to match.

It's literally not the second richest https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2020 ... y-partner/

both Paul Weiss and Kirkland are more profitable

[Anonymous User]

MoFo associate here thinking this delay is so typical. No hours threshold for NY; hours threshold for SF. Took away associates’ allotted vacation last year with zero notice after they had to pay out the special bonuses to keep up with market. Honestly not sure why anyone works here instead of Fenwick or Orrick at this point.

Yikes is MoFo losing their status even in SF?

Also curious

MoFo here. What status?? Really though. "Peer" firms are leading the way on special bonuses (shout-out to Cooley in 2020 and even Gunderson in summer 2019 though no one followed suit), giving 40hrs of vacation as billable (Orrick, WSGR) or giving rest/recreation bonuses (Fenwick) on top of special bonuses that MoFo has yet to announce. MoFo will announce, but it'll drag its feet about it and tie it to hours just like it has every other time (summer bonuses in 2018, annual bonuses outside NYC, etc.). Nothing new to see here, enjoy another mental health webinar while the firm takes away your vacation time.