Clerkship Competitiveness for Lit Boutiques Forum

[Anonymous User]

Cum laude from HLS is ridiculously easy to get. HLS has tons of soft woke courses (transgender law, CRT, labor law, etc.). Graduate with honors from SLS, Chicago, or Yale and then we'll talk

HLS isn't the only school with massive grade inflation. Cf. NU. But Latin honors are relative, and all students have the same courses available to them, at least in theory.

To your point, though, it is ridiculous that many judges and employers view top 40% at HLS as equivalent to top 10% at a T14. The latter is much, much more difficult.

Maybe some judges sure. But I feel like most employers see magna level grades from CCN and some of the mid T14s as very good and better than cum laude harvard. Most of the heavy Harvard weighting seems to be for judges and OCI not necessarily post-graduation. But what do I know, I don't do the hiring, this is just based on instinct.

You're right, you don't know. For many elite outcomes, employers only take from the T6 (yes boys and girls, the T6 was, is, and will remain a thing). For many of those elite outcomes, cum laude from Harvard is the prerequisite.

Name these "elite outcomes." I can't think of a single position in law that requires a T6 degree over a T14 degree. That said, of course, most employers (especially on the East Coast) will view top T6 graduates more favorably than top T14 graduates.

And there are positions that typically fill with HLS magna candidates where one would need to have graduated at or very close to first-in-class at a Duke/Northwestern/Cornell to compete. Things like Bristow Fellow, etc. But for those positions, a high magna or summa candidate from one of the lower T14 schools will have a better chance (all other things like clerkships equal) than a HLS cum laude graduate.

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

[Anonymous User]

Cum laude from HLS is ridiculously easy to get. HLS has tons of soft woke courses (transgender law, CRT, labor law, etc.). Graduate with honors from SLS, Chicago, or Yale and then we'll talk

HLS isn't the only school with massive grade inflation. Cf. NU. But Latin honors are relative, and all students have the same courses available to them, at least in theory.

To your point, though, it is ridiculous that many judges and employers view top 40% at HLS as equivalent to top 10% at a T14. The latter is much, much more difficult.

Maybe some judges sure. But I feel like most employers see magna level grades from CCN and some of the mid T14s as very good and better than cum laude harvard. Most of the heavy Harvard weighting seems to be for judges and OCI not necessarily post-graduation. But what do I know, I don't do the hiring, this is just based on instinct.

You're right, you don't know. For many elite outcomes, employers only take from the T6 (yes boys and girls, the T6 was, is, and will remain a thing). For many of those elite outcomes, cum laude from Harvard is the prerequisite.

Name these "elite outcomes." I can't think of a single position in law that requires a T6 degree over a T14 degree. That said, of course, most employers (especially on the East Coast) will view top T6 graduates more favorably than top T14 graduates.

And there are positions that typically fill with HLS magna candidates where one would need to have graduated at or very close to first-in-class at a Duke/Northwestern/Cornell to compete. Things like Bristow Fellow, etc. But for those positions, a high magna or summa candidate from one of the lower T14 schools will have a better chance (all other things like clerkships equal) than a HLS cum laude graduate.

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

Nah dog. Not sure whether you’re a HLS 2L feeling pretty with a transcript of half Hs or what, but you cast the net much too wide. Top 10% at a T14 can get all those positions and more.

[Anonymous User]

Serious question as someone who wants to work in lit boutiques but also wants to avoid the toxic characteristics demonstrated by some on this thread. I assume the insufferability is unique to TLS and not nearly as apparent for people that actually work at these firms right? Last thing I want to do is work for a firm that views a number one student at Penn as the exception to a rule that only allows cum luade HLS students. Are there any other firms that are worse than others on this? I found the circle jerking over prestige among top students in law school really draining and would like a culture check so I don't end up at an insufferable firm.

[Pneumonia]

Serious question as someone who wants to work in lit boutiques but also wants to avoid the toxic characteristics demonstrated by some on this thread. I assume the insufferability is unique to TLS and not nearly as apparent for people that actually work at these firms right? Last thing I want to do is work for a firm that views a number one student at Penn as the exception to a rule that only allows cum luade HLS students. Are there any other firms that are worse than others on this? I found the circle jerking over prestige among top students in law school really draining and would like a culture check so I don't end up at an insufferable firm.

Your assumption is generally correct. The prestige stuff is only a signal. It has no inherent worth. Once you land at a firm, the questions quickly become "can you do the work? how fast? how well?" Doubly so at boutiques. The percentage of people who care about school / law review / class rank at a firm is roughly proportional to the percentage of law students who care about LSAT score. And those two minority groups tend to meet approximately the same reception from their peers. Two caveats. Prestige things matter for recruiting (obviously). And sometimes they matter for clients. But clients are not making fine-grained distinctions between different COA clerkships or within the T14.

[Anonymous User]

Cum laude from HLS is ridiculously easy to get. HLS has tons of soft woke courses (transgender law, CRT, labor law, etc.). Graduate with honors from SLS, Chicago, or Yale and then we'll talk

HLS isn't the only school with massive grade inflation. Cf. NU. But Latin honors are relative, and all students have the same courses available to them, at least in theory.

To your point, though, it is ridiculous that many judges and employers view top 40% at HLS as equivalent to top 10% at a T14. The latter is much, much more difficult.

Maybe some judges sure. But I feel like most employers see magna level grades from CCN and some of the mid T14s as very good and better than cum laude harvard. Most of the heavy Harvard weighting seems to be for judges and OCI not necessarily post-graduation. But what do I know, I don't do the hiring, this is just based on instinct.

You're right, you don't know. For many elite outcomes, employers only take from the T6 (yes boys and girls, the T6 was, is, and will remain a thing). For many of those elite outcomes, cum laude from Harvard is the prerequisite.

Name these "elite outcomes." I can't think of a single position in law that requires a T6 degree over a T14 degree. That said, of course, most employers (especially on the East Coast) will view top T6 graduates more favorably than top T14 graduates.

And there are positions that typically fill with HLS magna candidates where one would need to have graduated at or very close to first-in-class at a Duke/Northwestern/Cornell to compete. Things like Bristow Fellow, etc. But for those positions, a high magna or summa candidate from one of the lower T14 schools will have a better chance (all other things like clerkships equal) than a HLS cum laude graduate.

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

Nah dog. Not sure whether you’re a HLS 2L feeling pretty with a transcript of half Hs or what, but you cast the net much too wide. Top 10% at a T14 can get all those positions and more.

YLS grad with 5+ years of experience in hiring. They cannot

[Anonymous User]

HLS isn't the only school with massive grade inflation. Cf. NU. But Latin honors are relative, and all students have the same courses available to them, at least in theory.

To your point, though, it is ridiculous that many judges and employers view top 40% at HLS as equivalent to top 10% at a T14. The latter is much, much more difficult.

Maybe some judges sure. But I feel like most employers see magna level grades from CCN and some of the mid T14s as very good and better than cum laude harvard. Most of the heavy Harvard weighting seems to be for judges and OCI not necessarily post-graduation. But what do I know, I don't do the hiring, this is just based on instinct.

You're right, you don't know. For many elite outcomes, employers only take from the T6 (yes boys and girls, the T6 was, is, and will remain a thing). For many of those elite outcomes, cum laude from Harvard is the prerequisite.

Name these "elite outcomes." I can't think of a single position in law that requires a T6 degree over a T14 degree. That said, of course, most employers (especially on the East Coast) will view top T6 graduates more favorably than top T14 graduates.

And there are positions that typically fill with HLS magna candidates where one would need to have graduated at or very close to first-in-class at a Duke/Northwestern/Cornell to compete. Things like Bristow Fellow, etc. But for those positions, a high magna or summa candidate from one of the lower T14 schools will have a better chance (all other things like clerkships equal) than a HLS cum laude graduate.

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

Nah dog. Not sure whether you’re a HLS 2L feeling pretty with a transcript of half Hs or what, but you cast the net much too wide. Top 10% at a T14 can get all those positions and more.

YLS grad with 5+ years of experience in hiring. They cannot

This is ridiculous. Every year, top 10% T14 grads clerk for appellate judges across the country, join Wachtell, get DOJ Honors offers, and join boutiques like W&C, KH, etc.

At the most selective boutiques (Susman NY and KH come to mind) and for the top feeder judges, top 10% grades from a lower T14 probably won’t clear the bar. First-in-class or pretty close to it is probably necessary.

But for pretty much everything else, top 10% grades from a lower T14 put candidates in play. And obviously, there’s more to an application than just school and grades.

FWIW I have heard anecdotally from a Duke/NU/Cornell grad who spent a few years at Wachtell that partners treated them worse than HYS or even CCN grads because of their law school.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe some judges sure. But I feel like most employers see magna level grades from CCN and some of the mid T14s as very good and better than cum laude harvard. Most of the heavy Harvard weighting seems to be for judges and OCI not necessarily post-graduation. But what do I know, I don't do the hiring, this is just based on instinct.

You're right, you don't know. For many elite outcomes, employers only take from the T6 (yes boys and girls, the T6 was, is, and will remain a thing). For many of those elite outcomes, cum laude from Harvard is the prerequisite.

Name these "elite outcomes." I can't think of a single position in law that requires a T6 degree over a T14 degree. That said, of course, most employers (especially on the East Coast) will view top T6 graduates more favorably than top T14 graduates.

And there are positions that typically fill with HLS magna candidates where one would need to have graduated at or very close to first-in-class at a Duke/Northwestern/Cornell to compete. Things like Bristow Fellow, etc. But for those positions, a high magna or summa candidate from one of the lower T14 schools will have a better chance (all other things like clerkships equal) than a HLS cum laude graduate.

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

Nah dog. Not sure whether you’re a HLS 2L feeling pretty with a transcript of half Hs or what, but you cast the net much too wide. Top 10% at a T14 can get all those positions and more.

YLS grad with 5+ years of experience in hiring. They cannot

This is ridiculous. Every year, top 10% T14 grads clerk for appellate judges across the country, join Wachtell, get DOJ Honors offers, and join boutiques like W&C, KH, etc.

At the most selective boutiques (Susman NY and KH come to mind) and for the top feeder judges, top 10% grades from a lower T14 probably won’t clear the bar. First-in-class or pretty close to it is probably necessary.

But for pretty much everything else, top 10% grades from a lower T14 put candidates in play. And obviously, there’s more to an application than just school and grades.

FWIW I have heard anecdotally from a Duke/NU/Cornell grad who spent a few years at Wachtell that partners treated them worse than HYS or even CCN grads because of their law school.

I haven't heard that but I'm not surprised. The top two firms in NYC hire 80%+ from the T6 (less so from NYU).

[Anonymous User]

You're right, you don't know. For many elite outcomes, employers only take from the T6 (yes boys and girls, the T6 was, is, and will remain a thing). For many of those elite outcomes, cum laude from Harvard is the prerequisite.

Name these "elite outcomes." I can't think of a single position in law that requires a T6 degree over a T14 degree. That said, of course, most employers (especially on the East Coast) will view top T6 graduates more favorably than top T14 graduates.

And there are positions that typically fill with HLS magna candidates where one would need to have graduated at or very close to first-in-class at a Duke/Northwestern/Cornell to compete. Things like Bristow Fellow, etc. But for those positions, a high magna or summa candidate from one of the lower T14 schools will have a better chance (all other things like clerkships equal) than a HLS cum laude graduate.

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

Nah dog. Not sure whether you’re a HLS 2L feeling pretty with a transcript of half Hs or what, but you cast the net much too wide. Top 10% at a T14 can get all those positions and more.

YLS grad with 5+ years of experience in hiring. They cannot

This is ridiculous. Every year, top 10% T14 grads clerk for appellate judges across the country, join Wachtell, get DOJ Honors offers, and join boutiques like W&C, KH, etc.

At the most selective boutiques (Susman NY and KH come to mind) and for the top feeder judges, top 10% grades from a lower T14 probably won’t clear the bar. First-in-class or pretty close to it is probably necessary.

But for pretty much everything else, top 10% grades from a lower T14 put candidates in play. And obviously, there’s more to an application than just school and grades.

FWIW I have heard anecdotally from a Duke/NU/Cornell grad who spent a few years at Wachtell that partners treated them worse than HYS or even CCN grads because of their law school.

I haven't heard that but I'm not surprised. The top two firms in NYC hire 80%+ from the T6 (less so from NYU).

Not to single this out, but Cravath is only ~55% T6, which right in line with DPW (44%) and S&C (48%). Wachtell gets closest, but its still only around 72% T6.

This is getting outta control lol.

[Anonymous User]

Not to single this out, but Cravath is only ~55% T6, which right in line with DPW (44%) and S&C (48%). Wachtell gets closest, but its still only around 72% T6.

This is getting outta control lol.

Ah, but those are the *best* 55/44/48/72%. /s

[Anonymous User]

Name these "elite outcomes." I can't think of a single position in law that requires a T6 degree over a T14 degree. That said, of course, most employers (especially on the East Coast) will view top T6 graduates more favorably than top T14 graduates.

And there are positions that typically fill with HLS magna candidates where one would need to have graduated at or very close to first-in-class at a Duke/Northwestern/Cornell to compete. Things like Bristow Fellow, etc. But for those positions, a high magna or summa candidate from one of the lower T14 schools will have a better chance (all other things like clerkships equal) than a HLS cum laude graduate.

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

Nah dog. Not sure whether you’re a HLS 2L feeling pretty with a transcript of half Hs or what, but you cast the net much too wide. Top 10% at a T14 can get all those positions and more.

YLS grad with 5+ years of experience in hiring. They cannot

This is ridiculous. Every year, top 10% T14 grads clerk for appellate judges across the country, join Wachtell, get DOJ Honors offers, and join boutiques like W&C, KH, etc.

At the most selective boutiques (Susman NY and KH come to mind) and for the top feeder judges, top 10% grades from a lower T14 probably won’t clear the bar. First-in-class or pretty close to it is probably necessary.

But for pretty much everything else, top 10% grades from a lower T14 put candidates in play. And obviously, there’s more to an application than just school and grades.

FWIW I have heard anecdotally from a Duke/NU/Cornell grad who spent a few years at Wachtell that partners treated them worse than HYS or even CCN grads because of their law school.

I haven't heard that but I'm not surprised. The top two firms in NYC hire 80%+ from the T6 (less so from NYU).

Not to single this out, but Cravath is only ~55% T6, which right in line with DPW (44%) and S&C (48%). Wachtell gets closest, but its still only around 72% T6.

This is getting outta control lol.

I have zero idea where you got that number from, but the correct number for Cravath is 73%. So I stand corrected (barely). But you are quite off. In any case, the top two firms in NYC take over 70% from the T6. The rest are the very tippy-top from the T14 (and mostly Penn). I have nothing against lower T14 applicants, but to say they aren't at a huge disadvantage is not true and serves only to get their hopes up.

[Anonymous User]

Top biglaw, lit boutiques, and appellate clerkships. Obviously the number one student from Penn will be competitive, but that's what we call the exception that makes the rule

Nah dog. Not sure whether you’re a HLS 2L feeling pretty with a transcript of half Hs or what, but you cast the net much too wide. Top 10% at a T14 can get all those positions and more.

YLS grad with 5+ years of experience in hiring. They cannot

This is ridiculous. Every year, top 10% T14 grads clerk for appellate judges across the country, join Wachtell, get DOJ Honors offers, and join boutiques like W&C, KH, etc.

At the most selective boutiques (Susman NY and KH come to mind) and for the top feeder judges, top 10% grades from a lower T14 probably won’t clear the bar. First-in-class or pretty close to it is probably necessary.

But for pretty much everything else, top 10% grades from a lower T14 put candidates in play. And obviously, there’s more to an application than just school and grades.

FWIW I have heard anecdotally from a Duke/NU/Cornell grad who spent a few years at Wachtell that partners treated them worse than HYS or even CCN grads because of their law school.

I haven't heard that but I'm not surprised. The top two firms in NYC hire 80%+ from the T6 (less so from NYU).

Not to single this out, but Cravath is only ~55% T6, which right in line with DPW (44%) and S&C (48%). Wachtell gets closest, but its still only around 72% T6.

This is getting outta control lol.

I have zero idea where you got that number from, but the correct number for Cravath is 73%. So I stand corrected (barely). But you are quite off. In any case, the top two firms in NYC take over 70% from the T6. The rest are the very tippy-top from the T14 (and mostly Penn). I have nothing against lower T14 applicants, but to say they aren't at a huge disadvantage is not true and serves only to get their hopes up.

I work at S&C, our last summer class was well over 70% T6.

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Just look at Vault regional rankings. They track prestige well

[Anonymous User]

Hard data point from lower T-14 summer class:

3 people summered at Susman/KH
3 people summered at Cravath
0 Wachtell

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

There are people who got into CSM and chose SullCrom and DPW?? Wild

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

There are people who got into CSM and chose SullCrom and DPW?? Wild

Tons. They're peer firms. Each has a distinct personality and draws a different type of student.

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

I don't think people avoid K&E as much anymore. My year we had ~3 people go? Now, granted, I think all of them were out the door within a year to clerk, and I don't think any of them went back?

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

There are people who got into CSM and chose SullCrom and DPW?? Wild

Tons. They're peer firms. Each has a distinct personality and draws a different type of student.

I don't know anyone who thinks they're peer firms. Then again I know some people who think Chicago and HLS are peers, so go figure

[Anonymous User]

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

There are people who got into CSM and chose SullCrom and DPW?? Wild

Tons. They're peer firms. Each has a distinct personality and draws a different type of student.

I don't know anyone who thinks they're peer firms. Then again I know some people who think Chicago and HLS are peers, so go figure

I made this call, got offers from all 3 and went with one that isn't Cravath, almost entirely because the CSM rotation system was a turnoff. Having to start over in a new prax area every 15 months for your entire associate tenure seems like a bad time, especially since I knew what I wanted to do going in. On top of that, your experience depends a lot on which specific partner/partner rotation you get and I didn't want to gamble on being stuck working closely with a partner I didn't work well with for 15 months and then have to re-roll that gamble every 15 months going forward.

I generally think they do pretty similar, sophisticated work, but don't really have a super strong opinion on them being peers vs CSM being the greatest thing since sliced bread, but CSM at least wasn't so much better that it overcame the structural differences.

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

There are people who got into CSM and chose SullCrom and DPW?? Wild

1) yes duh.
2) every thread on TLS does not have to turn into a CSM is better than everyone thread. if you're at CSM and using this as an opportunity to feel better, it has the opposte effect. However, in the spirit of getting more money, if DPW and S&C do not match Cravath's new clerkship bonus numbers I will absolutely start treating Cravath as the better.

[Anonymous User]

Those have to be skewed by having two massive T6s, CLS and NYU, on the doorstep as the local schools. DC firms are not 70% T6, and on the whole they’re more selective than NYC firms.

Yeah I wonder how much of these numbers are just HLS/CLS/NYU. Yale/Stanford/Chicago are 600ish students total, while HLS/CLS/NYU approachs 1500 combined.

Anecdotally, SLS only sends maybe 10 total to Cravath/S&C NYC/WLRK per year.

I don't care about the outcome here at all but . . . of course the smaller schools send less people than larger schools? If you're trying to figure out how ~~prestigious~~ these places are, wouldn't it be a question of what % of those schools are going to these firms

Well then for SLS it's ~5% (granted, Cravath/S&C NYC aren't really seen as particularly more desirable outcomes than the other V10s in NYC to us--the only major NY firm that's stand-out is WLRK, and DPW/K&E/Sidley/etc all nab a few people).

yeah, just based on friends it seems like a lot of people from my class were choosing between CSM, S&C and DPW, which were all viewed pretty interchangeably, and people went to any of the 3 based on individual factors.

Disagree abt the K&E thing, seemed like if anything people actively avoided KE NYC

There are people who got into CSM and chose SullCrom and DPW?? Wild

1) yes duh.
2) every thread on TLS does not have to turn into a CSM is better than everyone thread. if you're at CSM and using this as an opportunity to feel better, it has the opposte effect. However, in the spirit of getting more money, if DPW and S&C do not match Cravath's new clerkship bonus numbers I will absolutely start treating Cravath as the better.

Not at CSM but that's a bad reason to treat firms as better