Susman (NY) vs Kellogg vs Wachtell (lit) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

But when you add in the delta for the clerkship bonus ($175k vs. $70k), which pays out over the first two years at Kellogg, suddenly it becomes clear that the difference kicks in immediately. Kellogg associates are compensated better than anyone in BigLaw (or even at other boutiques), and it isn't particularly close.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

But when you add in the delta for the clerkship bonus ($175k vs. $70k), which pays out over the first two years at Kellogg, suddenly it becomes clear that the difference kicks in immediately. Kellogg associates are compensated better than anyone in BigLaw (or even at other boutiques), and it isn't particularly close.

Wouldn't someone coming off two clerkships to wachtell be making ~700k in their first year? 100 clerkship + 305 salary (market) + ~300k bonus (based on comp). Feels like it comfortably outstrips Kellogg.

Also, you can go to Kellogg without clerking twice. I know 3 people in my graduating class doing so

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

But when you add in the delta for the clerkship bonus ($175k vs. $70k), which pays out over the first two years at Kellogg, suddenly it becomes clear that the difference kicks in immediately. Kellogg associates are compensated better than anyone in BigLaw (or even at other boutiques), and it isn't particularly close.

Wouldn't someone coming off two clerkships to wachtell be making ~700k in their first year? 100 clerkship + 305 salary (market) + ~300k bonus (based on comp). Feels like it comfortably outstrips Kellogg.

Also, you can go to Kellogg without clerking twice. I know 3 people in my graduating class doing so

I have no skin in the game on your Wachtell vs Kellogg comparison, but your math is wrong on a Wachtell 3rd year coming off two clerkships.

Market base for a third year is $250K. There's no clerkship bonus at Wachtell, just a prorated (generous) EOY bonus. Assuming we're not talking about stub year, that's $250K base + ~$250K bonus = $500K. Still amazing, but it's not 700K.

[RedNewJersey]

The thing about the Florida litigation market is it’s driven by boutiques that are prominent in Florida but aren’t the kind of firm that will give you national clout. The best litigation jobs in Florida aren’t really GT or HK, they’re specifically the Miami boutiques. Getting a job at one after clerking isn’t too difficult but I would like to have a national brand on my resume and make contacts in NY and DC that I can return to Florida with.

Which Miami boutiques are you referring to?

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

But when you add in the delta for the clerkship bonus ($175k vs. $70k), which pays out over the first two years at Kellogg, suddenly it becomes clear that the difference kicks in immediately. Kellogg associates are compensated better than anyone in BigLaw (or even at other boutiques), and it isn't particularly close.

Does Kellogg pay out secret black box associate retention bonuses like other firms?

[Anonymous User]

The thing about the Florida litigation market is it’s driven by boutiques that are prominent in Florida but aren’t the kind of firm that will give you national clout. The best litigation jobs in Florida aren’t really GT or HK, they’re specifically the Miami boutiques. Getting a job at one after clerking isn’t too difficult but I would like to have a national brand on my resume and make contacts in NY and DC that I can return to Florida with.

Which Miami boutiques are you referring to?

Podhurst, Colson Hicks, Kozyak, Rivero Mestre, Leon Cosgrove, Coffey Burlington. Those are the serious litigation firms in Miami and therefore Florida.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

Based on someone I know who almost went to Kellogg, those who have prior work experience jump to third year compensation after their first year . . . not sure if that impacts bonus comp too but just noting that it may be a larger delta than listed above.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

Based on someone I know who almost went to Kellogg, those who have prior work experience jump to third year compensation after their first year . . . not sure if that impacts bonus comp too but just noting that it may be a larger delta than listed above.

If you have a year of work experience, then isn't it even worse if you left to clerk for 2 years? You'd normally be a 4th year associate in year one.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg even pay that much above market? If you've clerked twice, you would enter most firms as a 3rd year associate. At Kellogg, you enter as a 1st year.

The Year 1 $255,000 salary is only $5K more than the standard 3rd year associate, and it doesn't seem like the standard bonus, aside from the clerkship bonus, is that much greater on average either.

Have you looked at the recent memos? Last year the high-hours bucket of bonuses was $400k, which is over 3x the Cravath scale maximum.

As for the poster who wants to get to Florida, I'd echo the advice above about looking at Boies. It has a huge presence in Florida. If you're conservative, you may also look at Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy, which would allow you to remote work out of the state while doing interesting and important work.

Yes I have. I base my estimates on medians, not maximums. According to the memo, your average bonus as an associate is the following (compared to regular firms):

1st year (regular 3rd-year associate at other firms): $57K / $57K
2nd year (4th): $87K / $75K
3rd (5th): $125K / $90K
4th (6th): $135K / $105K
5th (7th): $275K / $115K
6th (8th): $250K / $115K

You make a bit more for sure, but you have to stick around for a long time before the large increases are apparent. If you can go to Kellogg after only clerking once, the analysis is much more heavily skewed in their favor, but it seems like most of their hires clerk twice.

Based on someone I know who almost went to Kellogg, those who have prior work experience jump to third year compensation after their first year . . . not sure if that impacts bonus comp too but just noting that it may be a larger delta than listed above.

If you have a year of work experience, then isn't it even worse if you left to clerk for 2 years? You'd normally be a 4th year associate in year one.

I may be thinking about this wrong, but at my current firm, if you do a clerkship straight out of law school then you enter as a 2nd year. So the comparison in this scenario for Kellogg / standard BL pay is 1st year v. 2nd year.

If you work for one year, clerk for one year, then go back to big law you enter as a 3rd year. So for the first year at Kellogg, it would be 1st year v. 3rd year. Then, after one year at Kellogg, it would be 3rd year (at Kellogg) v. 4th year (Big Law).

I'm also assuming one clerkship that is one year (which is not uncommon for Kellogg associates from what I can tell from firm bios). You're probably right that if someone does two clerkships and would ordinarily get two years of class credit they might not be making out as well at Kellogg.

Anyways, I have no skin in the game -- just bored and curious about boutique comp.

[Anonymous User]

There are reasons you may not want to work at Kellogg but compensation isn't one of them. Everyone makes at least market, and many make much more. On years where the firm scores large contingency wins, the bonuses can get even larger. The firm also has other perks with cash value including 401k contributions.

[Anonymous User]

OP, consistent with what another poster here said, you may not want to consider just boutiques (excluding Wachtell, but it's the black sheep here anyway) for a variety of reasons. Happy to discuss more if you want