What do T6 grads with bad grades end up doing? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Recent YLS grad. Most go to elite NY biglaw, but not the most prestigious (CSM, WLRK)

[Anonymous User]

T14 bottom 50%. Ended up in a V40 corporate then lateraled to a V10. Made a lot of networking efforts.

I know so many from my T14 who did just this. Surprising number lateraled into v5s. Corporate is the great equalizer. I had to do really well as a lit associate to get to my old v5 just to watch them lateral in and lol at me lmao

I'm always surprised by this type of mentality. The difference between a V5 vs. a V20 or even V50 is pretty trivial. Sure the GPA cutoffs might be higher for a V5, but the type of junior and even midlevel work is going to be almost identical. By the time you see quality differences between associates across firms, most of the class will have exited biglaw entirely anyways.

[Anonymous User]

T14 bottom 50%. Ended up in a V40 corporate then lateraled to a V10. Made a lot of networking efforts.

I know so many from my T14 who did just this. Surprising number lateraled into v5s. Corporate is the great equalizer. I had to do really well as a lit associate to get to my old v5 just to watch them lateral in and lol at me lmao

I'm always surprised by this type of mentality. The difference between a V5 vs. a V20 or even V50 is pretty trivial. Sure the GPA cutoffs might be higher for a V5, but the type of junior and even midlevel work is going to be almost identical. By the time you see quality differences between associates across firms, most of the class will have exited biglaw entirely anyways.

Drawing distinctions based between the V5 and V20 is just hilarious. Wachtell is the only corporate firm in the V20 that is meaningfully better than the others. For whatever reason Cravath retains its lore among law students.

[Anonymous User]

T14 bottom 50%. Ended up in a V40 corporate then lateraled to a V10. Made a lot of networking efforts.

I know so many from my T14 who did just this. Surprising number lateraled into v5s. Corporate is the great equalizer. I had to do really well as a lit associate to get to my old v5 just to watch them lateral in and lol at me lmao

I'm always surprised by this type of mentality. The difference between a V5 vs. a V20 or even V50 is pretty trivial. Sure the GPA cutoffs might be higher for a V5, but the type of junior and even midlevel work is going to be almost identical. By the time you see quality differences between associates across firms, most of the class will have exited biglaw entirely anyways.

Drawing distinctions based between the V5 and V20 is just hilarious. Wachtell is the only corporate firm in the V20 that is meaningfully better than the others. For whatever reason Cravath retains its lore among law students.

Ah yes, the TLS guru will tell us why he, out of thousands of law students, biglaw associates, partners, and judges thinks the V1 is overrated

I was not trying to attack Cravath specifically, but it’s objectively less prestigious than Wachtell among people whose opinion actually matters. Vault is based almost entirely on the votes of young corporate associates. I never met a single person who wanted to go to Cravath over Wachtell. And it is way easier to get a job at Cravath. They frequently take median from HLS at least. Plus, you know, Wachtell only pays nearly twice as much money as Cravath. But hey maybe some law student thinks saying “I work for the V1” is worth a few hundred grand a year.

[Anonymous User]

I was not trying to attack Cravath specifically, but it’s objectively less prestigious than Wachtell among people whose opinion actually matters. Vault is based almost entirely on the votes of young corporate associates. I never met a single person who wanted to go to Cravath over Wachtell. And it is way easier to get a job at Cravath. They frequently take median from HLS at least. Plus, you know, Wachtell only pays nearly twice as much money as Cravath. But hey maybe some law student thinks saying “I work for the V1” is worth a few hundred grand a year.

There's some poster here who pops up every time someone dares to suggest Cravath isn't actually the pinnacle of biglaw. You can safely ignore them.

[Anonymous User]

T14 bottom 50%. Ended up in a V40 corporate then lateraled to a V10. Made a lot of networking efforts.

I know so many from my T14 who did just this. Surprising number lateraled into v5s. Corporate is the great equalizer. I had to do really well as a lit associate to get to my old v5 just to watch them lateral in and lol at me lmao

I'm always surprised by this type of mentality. The difference between a V5 vs. a V20 or even V50 is pretty trivial. Sure the GPA cutoffs might be higher for a V5, but the type of junior and even midlevel work is going to be almost identical. By the time you see quality differences between associates across firms, most of the class will have exited biglaw entirely anyways.

Drawing distinctions based between the V5 and V20 is just hilarious. Wachtell is the only corporate firm in the V20 that is meaningfully better than the others. For whatever reason Cravath retains its lore among law students.

Ah yes, the TLS guru will tell us why he, out of thousands of law students, biglaw associates, partners, and judges thinks the V1 is overrated

I was not trying to attack Cravath specifically, but it’s objectively less prestigious than Wachtell among people whose opinion actually matters. Vault is based almost entirely on the votes of young corporate associates. I never met a single person who wanted to go to Cravath over Wachtell. And it is way easier to get a job at Cravath. They frequently take median from HLS at least. Plus, you know, Wachtell only pays nearly twice as much money as Cravath. But hey maybe some law student thinks saying “I work for the V1” is worth a few hundred grand a year.

I'm not knocking WLRK. Fine firm. But the best firm in all of NYC? That's like saying Gupta Wessler is the best firm in DC. A fine boutique, but the best firm is the one with the biggest combo of prestige, size, deal size, and strength across numerous practice groups. I'm sorry, but that's not WLRK. Maybe there's a reason even in NY, the ranking is what it is: https://legacy.vault.com/best-companies ... n/new-york

[Anonymous User]

I was not trying to attack Cravath specifically, but it’s objectively less prestigious than Wachtell among people whose opinion actually matters. Vault is based almost entirely on the votes of young corporate associates. I never met a single person who wanted to go to Cravath over Wachtell. And it is way easier to get a job at Cravath. They frequently take median from HLS at least. Plus, you know, Wachtell only pays nearly twice as much money as Cravath. But hey maybe some law student thinks saying “I work for the V1” is worth a few hundred grand a year.

There's some poster here who pops up every time someone dares to suggest Cravath isn't actually the pinnacle of biglaw. You can safely ignore them.

First, I am probably not the poster you're referring to because I only recently joined TLS. Second, I'm sorry my arguments are strong, but it's irresponsible of me to let posters mislead impressionable law students. So I feel it's my duty to speak up

[Anonymous User]

I was not trying to attack Cravath specifically, but it’s objectively less prestigious than Wachtell among people whose opinion actually matters. Vault is based almost entirely on the votes of young corporate associates. I never met a single person who wanted to go to Cravath over Wachtell. And it is way easier to get a job at Cravath. They frequently take median from HLS at least. Plus, you know, Wachtell only pays nearly twice as much money as Cravath. But hey maybe some law student thinks saying “I work for the V1” is worth a few hundred grand a year.

There's some poster here who pops up every time someone dares to suggest Cravath isn't actually the pinnacle of biglaw. You can safely ignore them.

First, I am probably not the poster you're referring to because I only recently joined TLS. Second, I'm sorry my arguments are strong, but it's irresponsible of me to let posters mislead impressionable law students. So I feel it's my duty to speak up

I mean, this is exactly what the other yahoo keeps insisting, so either you're the same person or Cravath's koolaid is REALLY strong.

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

OP don't listen to this absolutely braindead answer. Top third at HYS will make the "absolutely elite" firms that your aunt will brag about to her church friends go simply wild with excitement

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

Maybe at Y/S but top 1/3 at Harvard is 190 people idk if that's enough to get generic unless you're fed soc.

Anyways as far as how impressive it is idk. I guess the cum laude distinction looks nice.

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

Maybe at Y/S but top 1/3 at Harvard is 190 people idk if that's enough to get generic unless you're fed soc.

Anyways as far as how impressive it is idk. I guess the cum laude distinction looks nice.

Fair, I always forget how big H is. And S doesn't have latin honors anyway (does Y?), so I'm not sure it's as obvious as it is with H. All I know is that top-third is roughly equal Hs and Ps at S.

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

Maybe at Y/S but top 1/3 at Harvard is 190 people idk if that's enough to get generic unless you're fed soc.

Anyways as far as how impressive it is idk. I guess the cum laude distinction looks nice.

Idk there are probably almost 300 COA judges in the US with an average of 3-4 clerks each. And probably half of the top 1/3 at Harvard don't want to do litigation or, if they do, don't want a clerkship. I would guess it's probably not too difficult to get a generic COA from Harvard if you're top 1/3 and persistent.

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

Maybe at Y/S but top 1/3 at Harvard is 190 people idk if that's enough to get generic unless you're fed soc.

Anyways as far as how impressive it is idk. I guess the cum laude distinction looks nice.

Idk there are probably almost 300 COA judges in the US with an average of 3-4 clerks each. And probably half of the top 1/3 at Harvard don't want to do litigation or, if they do, don't want a clerkship. I would guess it's probably not too difficult to get a generic COA from Harvard if you're top 1/3 and persistent.

Assuming there are really 900 to 1200 clerkship positions to go around every year on the COA (highly disagree with that), that would still not be that much. You have to understand that it is not just one class year that is applying for these clerkships. You have 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls, and junior practicing lawyers.

This is again failing to consider that many senior judges have way less clerks and a lot of judges particularly in non-2/DC districts routinely hire at certain non-HYS schools. Scirica for instance gets most of his from Penn. i know Siler looks for university of Kentucky. Easterbrook only takes from Chicago. These things are fairly competitive. if I'm only top 1/3 at Harvard I think a COA is certainly doable but it is by no means an easy get.

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

Maybe at Y/S but top 1/3 at Harvard is 190 people idk if that's enough to get generic unless you're fed soc.

Anyways as far as how impressive it is idk. I guess the cum laude distinction looks nice.

Idk there are probably almost 300 COA judges in the US with an average of 3-4 clerks each. And probably half of the top 1/3 at Harvard don't want to do litigation or, if they do, don't want a clerkship. I would guess it's probably not too difficult to get a generic COA from Harvard if you're top 1/3 and persistent.

Assuming there are really 900 to 1200 clerkship positions to go around every year on the COA (highly disagree with that), that would still not be that much. You have to understand that it is not just one class year that is applying for these clerkships. You have 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls, and junior practicing lawyers.

This is again failing to consider that many senior judges have way less clerks and a lot of judges particularly in non-2/DC districts routinely hire at certain non-HYS schools. Scirica for instance gets most of his from Penn. i know Siler looks for university of Kentucky. Easterbrook only takes from Chicago. These things are fairly competitive. if I'm only top 1/3 at Harvard I think a COA is certainly doable but it is by no means an easy get.

I once heard a circuit judge describe top-third grades as being "not disqualifying" for applicants to his chambers from HYS, so that might be the better way to look at it--you're no longer competing on grades, but on resume, recommendations, pre-law WE, etc.

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

Maybe at Y/S but top 1/3 at Harvard is 190 people idk if that's enough to get generic unless you're fed soc.

Anyways as far as how impressive it is idk. I guess the cum laude distinction looks nice.

Idk there are probably almost 300 COA judges in the US with an average of 3-4 clerks each. And probably half of the top 1/3 at Harvard don't want to do litigation or, if they do, don't want a clerkship. I would guess it's probably not too difficult to get a generic COA from Harvard if you're top 1/3 and persistent.

Assuming there are really 900 to 1200 clerkship positions to go around every year on the COA (highly disagree with that), that would still not be that much. You have to understand that it is not just one class year that is applying for these clerkships. You have 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls, and junior practicing lawyers.

This is again failing to consider that many senior judges have way less clerks and a lot of judges particularly in non-2/DC districts routinely hire at certain non-HYS schools. Scirica for instance gets most of his from Penn. i know Siler looks for university of Kentucky. Easterbrook only takes from Chicago. These things are fairly competitive. if I'm only top 1/3 at Harvard I think a COA is certainly doable but it is by no means an easy get.

Yeah, I get that, I’ve done hiring at both levels and know other chambers’ practices. But I still think a cum laude Harvard grad can get a COA clerkship somewhere if they diligently apply. Granted the diligence part is where quite a few people fall off, but I don’t find it that hard to just mass send apps on OSCAR, which is why I said “not too difficult.” I’m know it happens, but I think it would be a bit rare to find a cum laude Harvard grad who really wanted to clerk on COA (and was geographically flexible) that didn’t end up finding one. I didn’t go to Harvard though, so I could very well be wrong!

This is not the point of the thread at all so sorry for derailing further!

[Anonymous User]

How impressive is it to graduate top 3rd at HYS?

Inasmuch as this is off topic, that's probably enough to get a generic COA clerkship, but it's not going to make the absolute elite firms go crazy.

Maybe at Y/S but top 1/3 at Harvard is 190 people idk if that's enough to get generic unless you're fed soc.

Anyways as far as how impressive it is idk. I guess the cum laude distinction looks nice.

Maybe I'm an idiot but i'm not really sure how a school being big makes a percentile based honor worth less than it would be at a smaller school

[CondescendingLiberal]

If you can't get a COA clerkship graduating cum laude from Harvard Law School, you are doing it wrong. Or Harvard is a paper tiger. Either one is plausible.