Crazy?? Leaving FAANG Engineering for Law Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP, this forum will regularly tell even normal college kids that being a lawyer sucks and no one should ever do it, much less successful and rich professionals. This post is like a perfect scheme (though I don’t think it’s trolling) to get everyone to pile on and dissuade you. I learned early on that lawyers, more than maybe any other profession, love to shit on what they do. This post is an especially vivid example:

Most of the people at law school, even at a T14, are lowlives who had no other career prospects. They will relish dragging you down to their level. Imagine a bunch of (bitter, emotionally stunted) zombies chanting “one of us, one of us” or perhaps crabs in a bucket. At Y/S the people are smart, but are also insufferable to the max, ready to stab you in the back with an ethically sourced fair-trade knife.

So counterpoint: if this is your dream, go for it! But “grass is always greener” thinking is especially dangerous in a situation like yours, when you have more or less already won the lottery of the 21st century economy. Tread carefully.

I actually love my job, and am one of the most satisfied people at my biglaw firm. But to get here I had to waste 3 years with terrible human beings and rude professors, all with political and personal axes to grind. OP should avoid that unless he truly hates what he does now.

Could you explain by what you mean by most t14 law students being low lives. If average GPA is an indicator of intelligence and moral standards, then surely it can't be that bad. Like what are the characteristics of them that make them lowlives?

GPA is definitely not an indicator of moral standards, and is barely an indicator of intelligence.

As for why they’re lowlives, it’s hard to pin down — but if you’ve been around better quality people and then step into a T14 law school you’ll know it when you see it. There’s a certain bitterness, meanness, lack of individuality, no twinkle in the eyes, and lack of a sense of humor. It’s not everybody — I’d be considered really cool at any MBA program, for example — but there’s a lot of lowlives.

OP don't listen to this idiot. Law students are probably more type-A/neurotic than your average subset, but generally speaking, they're just normal people. Some suck, most are just people getting by.

However, anyone who describes themselves as "really cool at any MBA program" is for sure someone who fucking sucks and is just bitter that everyone at his law school was able to figure out he sucks.

[Anonymous User]

OP, this forum will regularly tell even normal college kids that being a lawyer sucks and no one should ever do it, much less successful and rich professionals. This post is like a perfect scheme (though I don’t think it’s trolling) to get everyone to pile on and dissuade you. I learned early on that lawyers, more than maybe any other profession, love to shit on what they do. This post is an especially vivid example:

Most of the people at law school, even at a T14, are lowlives who had no other career prospects. They will relish dragging you down to their level. Imagine a bunch of (bitter, emotionally stunted) zombies chanting “one of us, one of us” or perhaps crabs in a bucket. At Y/S the people are smart, but are also insufferable to the max, ready to stab you in the back with an ethically sourced fair-trade knife.

So counterpoint: if this is your dream, go for it! But “grass is always greener” thinking is especially dangerous in a situation like yours, when you have more or less already won the lottery of the 21st century economy. Tread carefully.

I actually love my job, and am one of the most satisfied people at my biglaw firm. But to get here I had to waste 3 years with terrible human beings and rude professors, all with political and personal axes to grind. OP should avoid that unless he truly hates what he does now.

Could you explain by what you mean by most t14 law students being low lives. If average GPA is an indicator of intelligence and moral standards, then surely it can't be that bad. Like what are the characteristics of them that make them lowlives?

GPA is definitely not an indicator of moral standards, and is barely an indicator of intelligence.

As for why they’re lowlives, it’s hard to pin down — but if you’ve been around better quality people and then step into a T14 law school you’ll know it when you see it. There’s a certain bitterness, meanness, lack of individuality, no twinkle in the eyes, and lack of a sense of humor. It’s not everybody — I’d be considered really cool at any MBA program, for example — but there’s a lot of lowlives.

OP don't listen to this idiot. Law students are probably more type-A/neurotic than your average subset, but generally speaking, they're just normal people. Some suck, most are just people getting by.

However, anyone who describes themselves as "really cool at any MBA program" is for sure someone who fucking sucks and is just bitter that everyone at his law school was able to figure out he sucks.

Law students (and lawyers) are more intellectually curious, policy-oriented, community involved, workaholic, driven, neurotic, reserved, thoughtful, and conscientious than your average person. Great to have a conversation with them if you can pull them away from work.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

OP, this forum will regularly tell even normal college kids that being a lawyer sucks and no one should ever do it, much less successful and rich professionals. This post is like a perfect scheme (though I don’t think it’s trolling) to get everyone to pile on and dissuade you. I learned early on that lawyers, more than maybe any other profession, love to shit on what they do. This post is an especially vivid example:

Most of the people at law school, even at a T14, are lowlives who had no other career prospects. They will relish dragging you down to their level. Imagine a bunch of (bitter, emotionally stunted) zombies chanting “one of us, one of us” or perhaps crabs in a bucket. At Y/S the people are smart, but are also insufferable to the max, ready to stab you in the back with an ethically sourced fair-trade knife.

So counterpoint: if this is your dream, go for it! But “grass is always greener” thinking is especially dangerous in a situation like yours, when you have more or less already won the lottery of the 21st century economy. Tread carefully.

I actually love my job, and am one of the most satisfied people at my biglaw firm. But to get here I had to waste 3 years with terrible human beings and rude professors, all with political and personal axes to grind. OP should avoid that unless he truly hates what he does now.

Could you explain by what you mean by most t14 law students being low lives. If average GPA is an indicator of intelligence and moral standards, then surely it can't be that bad. Like what are the characteristics of them that make them lowlives?

GPA is definitely not an indicator of moral standards, and is barely an indicator of intelligence.

As for why they’re lowlives, it’s hard to pin down — but if you’ve been around better quality people and then step into a T14 law school you’ll know it when you see it. There’s a certain bitterness, meanness, lack of individuality, no twinkle in the eyes, and lack of a sense of humor. It’s not everybody — I’d be considered really cool at any MBA program, for example — but there’s a lot of lowlives.

OP don't listen to this idiot. Law students are probably more type-A/neurotic than your average subset, but generally speaking, they're just normal people. Some suck, most are just people getting by.

However, anyone who describes themselves as "really cool at any MBA program" is for sure someone who fucking sucks and is just bitter that everyone at his law school was able to figure out he sucks.

Ad hominem attack aside — I think it’s clear that law schools, and particularly top ranked law schools, attract certain kinds of personalities. You may mostly identify with those personalities, and I may not, but to call them “normal” is doing a major disservice to the OP.

Agreed that lawyers in general are normal people trying to get by, but that isn’t how I’d characterize the current student body at HLS or YLS.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

OP, this forum will regularly tell even normal college kids that being a lawyer sucks and no one should ever do it, much less successful and rich professionals. This post is like a perfect scheme (though I don’t think it’s trolling) to get everyone to pile on and dissuade you. I learned early on that lawyers, more than maybe any other profession, love to shit on what they do. This post is an especially vivid example:

Most of the people at law school, even at a T14, are lowlives who had no other career prospects. They will relish dragging you down to their level. Imagine a bunch of (bitter, emotionally stunted) zombies chanting “one of us, one of us” or perhaps crabs in a bucket. At Y/S the people are smart, but are also insufferable to the max, ready to stab you in the back with an ethically sourced fair-trade knife.

So counterpoint: if this is your dream, go for it! But “grass is always greener” thinking is especially dangerous in a situation like yours, when you have more or less already won the lottery of the 21st century economy. Tread carefully.

I actually love my job, and am one of the most satisfied people at my biglaw firm. But to get here I had to waste 3 years with terrible human beings and rude professors, all with political and personal axes to grind. OP should avoid that unless he truly hates what he does now.

Could you explain by what you mean by most t14 law students being low lives. If average GPA is an indicator of intelligence and moral standards, then surely it can't be that bad. Like what are the characteristics of them that make them lowlives?

GPA is definitely not an indicator of moral standards, and is barely an indicator of intelligence.

As for why they’re lowlives, it’s hard to pin down — but if you’ve been around better quality people and then step into a T14 law school you’ll know it when you see it. There’s a certain bitterness, meanness, lack of individuality, no twinkle in the eyes, and lack of a sense of humor. It’s not everybody — I’d be considered really cool at any MBA program, for example — but there’s a lot of lowlives.

OP don't listen to this idiot. Law students are probably more type-A/neurotic than your average subset, but generally speaking, they're just normal people. Some suck, most are just people getting by.

However, anyone who describes themselves as "really cool at any MBA program" is for sure someone who fucking sucks and is just bitter that everyone at his law school was able to figure out he sucks.

Law students (and lawyers) are more intellectually curious, policy-oriented, community involved, workaholic, driven, neurotic, reserved, thoughtful, and conscientious than your average person. Great to have a conversation with them if you can pull them away from work.

Is this what you put on your OK Cupid profile? “If you manage to pull me away from my important LAWYER work, you’ll enjoy the witty repartee to follow ”

[Anonymous User]

I am ex-FAANG (worked for several of them) and am now attending law school at HYSCCN. To keep it simple, please do not do this.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

I am ex-FAANG (worked for several of them) and am now attending law school at HYSCCN. To keep it simple, please do not do this.

You’re not enjoying the top-class people described above?

[wjz3by]

I am ex-FAANG (worked for several of them) and am now attending law school at HYSCCN. To keep it simple, please do not do this.

Could you explain further? Were you in an engineering role?

[lavarman84]

Agreed that lawyers in general are normal people trying to get by, but that isn’t how I’d characterize the current student body at HLS or YLS.

Places that put out people like Ted Cruz, Ron DeSantis, Josh Hawley, and J.D. Vance do deserve serious side-eye.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed that lawyers in general are normal people trying to get by, but that isn’t how I’d characterize the current student body at HLS or YLS.

Places that put out people like Ted Cruz, Ron DeSantis, Josh Hawley, and J.D. Vance do deserve serious side-eye.

The silent majority at HLS just wants to graduate with their Harvard degree, go to big law, and make $200K+.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed that lawyers in general are normal people trying to get by, but that isn’t how I’d characterize the current student body at HLS or YLS.

Places that put out people like Ted Cruz, Ron DeSantis, Josh Hawley, and J.D. Vance do deserve serious side-eye.

The silent majority at HLS just wants to graduate with their Harvard degree, go to big law, and make $200K+.

Agreed: HLS is a big place, and there are certainly some relatively insufferable people around, but I found most of my classmates to be genuinely interesting, nice, people that also happened to be smart, hard-working, and interested in pursuing legal careers. I think most people there enjoyed law school and the people they did it with.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Agreed that lawyers in general are normal people trying to get by, but that isn’t how I’d characterize the current student body at HLS or YLS.

Places that put out people like Ted Cruz, Ron DeSantis, Josh Hawley, and J.D. Vance do deserve serious side-eye.

The silent majority at HLS just wants to graduate with their Harvard degree, go to big law, and make $200K+.

Agreed: HLS is a big place, and there are certainly some relatively insufferable people around, but I found most of my classmates to be genuinely interesting, nice, people that also happened to be smart, hard-working, and interested in pursuing legal careers. I think most people there enjoyed law school and the people they did it with.

most heroin junkies enjoy the company of other junkies, and most Neo Nazis enjoy the company of fellow white supremacists. So the fact that HLS kids all find one another super enjoyable and impressive doesn’t dispose of the issue

[Anonymous User]

OP, here are the key documents in the Musk/Twitter thing. This is the cream of what transactional lawyers (the trans docs are in there) and litigators do. Which one of these do you want to prepare?

https://twittervmusk.squarespace.com

The answer to your question is no, stay the hell out of law. It's inane, moronic, tedious (and necessary, to be fair) work done by people who don't have the talent to do anything else. It's intensely competitive because anyone can do legal work (it's just tedious) and there's a very low barrier to entry. You're around shitty bitter people counting the days until they die.

If you have no talent as an engineer, you'll coast through life in SV because even mediocre engineers can do something there. If you have talent, the sky is the limit. In law, there is no such thing as talent and there is no hope for making it big. It's all grueling and tedious work done the same way it was done 100 years ago and the way it will be done 100 years from now.

I have never, in my life, met a person who left a good field for law because they were successful or good at the former.

I disagree with both of these. There are some INCREDIBLY talented litigators out there. And some of them (or others, like plaintiff side attorneys) do make it pretty big (I'd call 8 figures big, wouldn't you?).

But neither of these points are necessary to your broader point. Nobody should ever become a lawyer because they think they will be one of the talented few or hit it big.

Also, I've met people in the law who left big, successful careers (i.e., already had a lot of money). Most of them went into niche areas they found interesting after setting up their nest egg. Others wanted to get into government/politics as a passion project. But again, it doesn't sound like OP is in this position.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with both of these. There are some INCREDIBLY talented litigators out there. And some of them (or others, like plaintiff side attorneys) do make it pretty big (I'd call 8 figures big, wouldn't you?).

But neither of these points are necessary to your broader point. Nobody should ever become a lawyer because they think they will be one of the talented few or hit it big.

Also, I've met people in the law who left big, successful careers (i.e., already had a lot of money). Most of them went into niche areas they found interesting after setting up their nest egg. Others wanted to get into government/politics as a passion project. But again, it doesn't sound like OP is in this position.

Some of the ones making 8 figures are outstanding marketers, which I guess is a talent, but it's not a legal talent. Some are just ass lucky, like they became General Counsel of Google or Twitter, a job any lawyer on this thread could probably do if they were lucky enough to get it. Luck isn't a talent, legal or non-legal. Many of those 8 figure guys don't even really do legal work anymore. They farm all their work out and take a cut.

I'd like an example of an already successful and rich person who became a lawyer. I can't think of one but I don't know maybe they exist.

Edit: I'm going to elaborate on the luck thing above. It's another hugely bs aspect of this profession. In engineering, the best product wins. Like the two google guys are billionaires because their search engine was just better than alta vista etc. I remember reading about how they invented this amazing new way of doing that.

In law, this woman gets $18 million a year even though she seems to be a moron. I'm not exaggerating when I say the lawyers in this thread could do her job, better. But they didn't get the job did they. If you research how she got it, it was pure dumb "right place at the right time" luck. This happens all the time in law.

Twitter CLO Vijaya Gadde Earned $17 Million in 2021
Gadde's salary held steady at $600,000, but a $15.5 million stock award caused her total compensation to rise 132%. from https://www.law.com/corpcounsel/2022/04 ... 0718185724

So what you’re saying is, I could be a moron and still get paid $18 million? Sick. Where do I sign up?

[Anonymous User]

Agreed that lawyers in general are normal people trying to get by, but that isn’t how I’d characterize the current student body at HLS or YLS.

Places that put out people like Ted Cruz, Ron DeSantis, Josh Hawley, and J.D. Vance do deserve serious side-eye.

The silent majority at HLS just wants to graduate with their Harvard degree, go to big law, and make $200K+.

Agreed: HLS is a big place, and there are certainly some relatively insufferable people around, but I found most of my classmates to be genuinely interesting, nice, people that also happened to be smart, hard-working, and interested in pursuing legal careers. I think most people there enjoyed law school and the people they did it with.

most heroin junkies enjoy the company of other junkies, and most Neo Nazis enjoy the company of fellow white supremacists. So the fact that HLS kids all find one another super enjoyable and impressive doesn’t dispose of the issue

RIL: hates lawyers, yet spends all of his free time communicating with lawyers on the internet

[Anonymous User]

.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Agreed that lawyers in general are normal people trying to get by, but that isn’t how I’d characterize the current student body at HLS or YLS.

Places that put out people like Ted Cruz, Ron DeSantis, Josh Hawley, and J.D. Vance do deserve serious side-eye.

The silent majority at HLS just wants to graduate with their Harvard degree, go to big law, and make $200K+.

Agreed: HLS is a big place, and there are certainly some relatively insufferable people around, but I found most of my classmates to be genuinely interesting, nice, people that also happened to be smart, hard-working, and interested in pursuing legal careers. I think most people there enjoyed law school and the people they did it with.

most heroin junkies enjoy the company of other junkies, and most Neo Nazis enjoy the company of fellow white supremacists. So the fact that HLS kids all find one another super enjoyable and impressive doesn’t dispose of the issue

RIL: hates lawyers, yet spends all of his free time communicating with lawyers on the internet

Wrong. I primarily dislike law students. Most later mature into decent people after a few years of work experience as a lawyer.

[nixy]

Yes, people who become legal counsel for Twitter have no talent at all and just get plucked randomly from obscurity into an $18 mill/yr job. That’s exactly how law works. (Hint: Elon Musk not liking someone doesn’t mean they’re a moron.)

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Yes, people who become legal counsel for Twitter have no talent at all and just get plucked randomly from obscurity into an $18 mill/yr job. That’s exactly how law works. (Hint: Elon Musk not liking someone doesn’t mean they’re a moron.)

They didn’t pluck her from obscurity, but there is still a huge luck factor involved. There are experienced, extremely intelligent biglaw partners who could have done her job and earn in the 1mm to 5mm range. The reason she made 18 million is because she lucked into meaningful equity in Twitter.

[nixy]

Yes, people who become legal counsel for Twitter have no talent at all and just get plucked randomly from obscurity into an $18 mill/yr job. That’s exactly how law works. (Hint: Elon Musk not liking someone doesn’t mean they’re a moron.)

They didn’t pluck her from obscurity, but there is still a huge luck factor involved. There are experienced, extremely intelligent biglaw partners who could have done her job and earn in the 1mm to 5mm range. The reason she made 18 million is because she lucked into meaningful equity in Twitter.

I guess I’m confused by the way that people are talking about luck here. It doesn’t seem at all specific to law that being in the right place at the right time matters. Most of the time, either someone worked pretty hard to get to be at the right place at the right time, or had connections. But that’s not some strange characteristic of law compared to other fields, that’s just how the world works. Pretty sure there are lots of talented engineers whose products don’t see the light of day because they weren’t in the right place at the right time, regardless of their thing being completely new and better.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Yes, people who become legal counsel for Twitter have no talent at all and just get plucked randomly from obscurity into an $18 mill/yr job. That’s exactly how law works. (Hint: Elon Musk not liking someone doesn’t mean they’re a moron.)

They didn’t pluck her from obscurity, but there is still a huge luck factor involved. There are experienced, extremely intelligent biglaw partners who could have done her job and earn in the 1mm to 5mm range. The reason she made 18 million is because she lucked into meaningful equity in Twitter.

I guess I’m confused by the way that people are talking about luck here. It doesn’t seem at all specific to law that being in the right place at the right time matters. Most of the time, either someone worked pretty hard to get to be at the right place at the right time, or had connections. But that’s not some strange characteristic of law compared to other fields, that’s just how the world works. Pretty sure there are lots of talented engineers whose products don’t see the light of day because they weren’t in the right place at the right time, regardless of their thing being completely new and better.

I agree that law isn’t any different from other fields in that respect. OP likely won’t ever “hit it big” in tech but I do think he should stick with his current field. It’s not worth the 3 years of law school, which could set him back badly in terms of long term financial security

[Anonymous User]

I'm anon from above who left FAANG for law. I was not eng, but I do have a classmate who was eng (SWE) who also worked in FAANG. They just wrapped their summer at a BigLaw firm; I think they definitely sensed that the hours and benefits in BigLaw are materially worse. Law firm pay is sometimes better if you last more than three years (but perhaps longer if you have a solid RSU package at a FAANG company). If you want to satisfy your intellectual curiosity, join a Reddit group or something. Unless you're in FedSoc, you're not really having the intellectually stimulating convos during/outside of class. When you're working full-time, there's little time to have those convos. The debt is stupid and most leave these firms after a few years to work at FAANG/other companies.

If you end up doing it, you'd better be able to live with that shit (and load up on your RSUs like I did). I'll be returning to tech after it's all said and done, and I almost certainly would've made more had I stayed.

[Pomeranian]

Aren't most FAANG engineering jobs chill 9-5 gigs, plus you get really nice perks and stock options? I wouldn't give that up unless you REALLY want to do law.

[wjz3by]

OP Here. Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I will stay at my current job.

[Anonymous User]

At the end of the day it's the same gig: both coders and lawyers copy and paste shit from google or previous products

[Anonymous User]

Most people here don't know what they are talking about re patent work. Biglaw patent litigator here with multiple grad level EECS degrees from top eng schools and the capability of quite easily getting fang jobs. You wouldn't be crazy for preferring law, I definitely do. Don't listen to the t14 or you won't even get Biglaw drivel either. If you want patent biglaw you can get it with a BS in CS for either patent pros or lit even with median grades at a school like Santa Clara with the current market, especially with FAANG worthy tech skills.