Is being in-house really just doing a bunch of circle jerk meetings all day w/ everyone doing cringey corporate-speak? Forum

[johndooley]

He called Orlando “tasteful”!

D- trolling. Way too obvious

The way he refers to Orlando as a really great place reminds me of the play the Book of Mormon. It's funny because Orlando is fine, just like a lot of places, but I'm not sure many people other than John D. and the guy from the Book of Mormon would go to bat for it as hard as John D. does.

Orlando is clean, safe, has plenty of outdoor activities year-round, boating, and decent schools when you raise a family. Of the 50 largest US metropolitan areas it ranks just fine. I do not have to commute so my home office overlooks the water. My firm does lease a conference room space for depositions and client meetings downtown.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

[johndooley]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

No one doxes themselves here, I am not out to attract clients or build a professional reputation to rely on here (although the resume submission with identifying info scrubbed for an associate position is still on the table, if sufficient we can arrange an interview). If you drove around Orlando there is a good chance you would see me on a billboard, in a local paper, or on the radio like any decent medmal attorney. I do not know why the tasteful line is so funny to you, look at the houses below. They are pleasing and not inexpensive.

https://www.zillow.com/windermere-fl/?s ... 22%3A12%7D

[Anonymous User]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

No one doxes themselves here, I am not out to attract clients or build a professional reputation to rely on here (although the resume submission with identifying info scrubbed for an associate position is still on the table, if sufficient we can arrange an interview). If you drove around Orlando there is a good chance you would see me on a billboard, in a local paper, or on the radio like any decent medmal attorney. I do not know why the tasteful line is so funny to you, look at the houses below. They are pleasing and not inexpensive.

https://www.zillow.com/windermere-fl/?s ... 22%3A12%7D

You know you are a tool when you are advertising a city and one of the benefits you list is that it has relatively high housing costs lol.

[johndooley]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

No one doxes themselves here, I am not out to attract clients or build a professional reputation to rely on here (although the resume submission with identifying info scrubbed for an associate position is still on the table, if sufficient we can arrange an interview). If you drove around Orlando there is a good chance you would see me on a billboard, in a local paper, or on the radio like any decent medmal attorney. I do not know why the tasteful line is so funny to you, look at the houses below. They are pleasing and not inexpensive.

https://www.zillow.com/windermere-fl/?s ... 22%3A12%7D

You know you are a tool when you are advertising a city and one of the benefits you list is that it has relatively high housing costs lol.

The point was not to brag about my income or net worth. I could pretty easily afford a 3br on the Upper East Side or in Georgetown or a Beverly Hills condo. There are some beautiful cities with amenities that are inexpensive so people frown upon them for that reason. Orlando combines these amenities and scenery with high-end career opportunities and houses that have a healthy track record of appreciation. It accomplishes this while having less traffic, less competition for said opportunities, and a wider variety of neighborhood densities than the Upper East Side, Georgetown, or Beverly Hills.

[Wild Card]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

[johndooley]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

That's only good if you have permanent WFH. Then the rest of your time need not be accounted for with the company. Otherwise you are wasting time in an office on someone else's schedule.

[nixy]

You won't find this. You are a cost center and are a liability for your company, "the cost of doing business." You took no risks, that is why you are going in-house. You did not have the drive and courage to stake out a path on your own. You are there to serve your employer and/or clients.

The logic underpinning your posts in this thread reminds me of anti-maskers who taunted mask-wearers as "scared", notwithstanding that (a) taking small yet meaningful steps toward evading a pandemic is a rational thing to do that does not indicate cowardice and (b) the wearer may have immuno-compromised people in their regular orbit.

People go in-house for all kinds of reasons, including the desire to preserve a corporate track career that entails greater stability and potentially high incomes and interesting jobs in the future. Likewise, people supporting families may not be positioned to absorb the risk or short-to-intermediate term income hit of starting their own practice.

You accuse others of being insecure but. ...

Weighing career risks accurately is not the same as blindly claiming masks do not work or should not be worn.

Yes, I understand why people go in-house and the reasons are generally bad. They do not have a corporate career track in that they will not be in management or a business-side role. Getting out of the legal department is very difficult. Regarding families sure, but they should have taken risks earlier on and executed on them.

How am I insecure? I am recommending a lucrative and fulfilling career path that I have enjoyed immensely. I wish everyone could have such contentment.

Plenty of people don't want a management or business-side role, or to run their own practice. Those are perfectly great career options for the right person, just not everyone wants them.

[johndooley]

You won't find this. You are a cost center and are a liability for your company, "the cost of doing business." You took no risks, that is why you are going in-house. You did not have the drive and courage to stake out a path on your own. You are there to serve your employer and/or clients.

The logic underpinning your posts in this thread reminds me of anti-maskers who taunted mask-wearers as "scared", notwithstanding that (a) taking small yet meaningful steps toward evading a pandemic is a rational thing to do that does not indicate cowardice and (b) the wearer may have immuno-compromised people in their regular orbit.

People go in-house for all kinds of reasons, including the desire to preserve a corporate track career that entails greater stability and potentially high incomes and interesting jobs in the future. Likewise, people supporting families may not be positioned to absorb the risk or short-to-intermediate term income hit of starting their own practice.

You accuse others of being insecure but. ...

Weighing career risks accurately is not the same as blindly claiming masks do not work or should not be worn.

Yes, I understand why people go in-house and the reasons are generally bad. They do not have a corporate career track in that they will not be in management or a business-side role. Getting out of the legal department is very difficult. Regarding families sure, but they should have taken risks earlier on and executed on them.

How am I insecure? I am recommending a lucrative and fulfilling career path that I have enjoyed immensely. I wish everyone could have such contentment.

Plenty of people don't want a management or business-side role, or to run their own practice. Those are perfectly great career options for the right person, just not everyone wants them.

That is a good point Nixy and you are right. I underestimate how many would be satisfied with the in-house life.

[glitched]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

From a seemingly logical perspective, yes. But I think it actually goes against human nature. We need real productivity. Or better framed, we need a real belief in our productivity (even if we actually aren't).

[lavarman84]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

Nah.

[lavarman84]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

They're certainly providing more of a service than the attorneys representing the corporations tbh.

[johndooley]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

They're certainly providing more of a service than the attorneys representing the corporations tbh.

Thanks for the kind words! And hey, if a client loses, that’s on me. No charge.

[Anonymous User]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

Nah.

It’s interesting to see the change in perspective on TLS from 2012 to 2022. It used to be that the conventional wisdom was that any first year in Big law was an idiot not to do corporate because the “smart” plan was to do a couple years at a big firm and go in house.

[lavarman84]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

Nah.

It’s interesting to see the change in perspective on TLS from 2012 to 2022. It used to be that the conventional wisdom was that any first year in Big law was an idiot not to do corporate because the “smart” plan was to do a couple years at a big firm and go in house.

I don't know that it's a change in perspective on TLS. I imagine many people would agree with Wild Card. I passed on biglaw and went into public interest. I like what I do and don't want a job where I spend the day doing nothing but watching the clock. It wouldn't be fulfilling. But I'm also not a person driven by money, as long as I make enough to live somewhat comfortably.

[nixy]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

Nah.

It’s interesting to see the change in perspective on TLS from 2012 to 2022. It used to be that the conventional wisdom was that any first year in Big law was an idiot not to do corporate because the “smart” plan was to do a couple years at a big firm and go in house.

I don't know that it's a change in perspective on TLS. I imagine many people would agree with Wild Card. I passed on biglaw and went into public interest. I like what I do and don't want a job where I spend the day doing nothing but watching the clock. It wouldn't be fulfilling. But I'm also not a person driven by money, as long as I make enough to live somewhat comfortably.

I used to think like this. I got over it.

(I mean not really because I didn’t do corporate and will probably never go in-house, but it sounds really nice to me.)

[Anonymous User]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

No one doxes themselves here, I am not out to attract clients or build a professional reputation to rely on here (although the resume submission with identifying info scrubbed for an associate position is still on the table, if sufficient we can arrange an interview). If you drove around Orlando there is a good chance you would see me on a billboard, in a local paper, or on the radio like any decent medmal attorney. I do not know why the tasteful line is so funny to you, look at the houses below. They are pleasing and not inexpensive.

https://www.zillow.com/windermere-fl/?s ... 22%3A12%7D

You know you are a tool when you are advertising a city and one of the benefits you list is that it has relatively high housing costs lol.

The point was not to brag about my income or net worth. I could pretty easily afford a 3br on the Upper East Side or in Georgetown or a Beverly Hills condo. There are some beautiful cities with amenities that are inexpensive so people frown upon them for that reason. Orlando combines these amenities and scenery with high-end career opportunities and houses that have a healthy track record of appreciation. It accomplishes this while having less traffic, less competition for said opportunities, and a wider variety of neighborhood densities than the Upper East Side, Georgetown, or Beverly Hills.

LOL it's Orlando bro. $700k for a 3,300 square foot house on a quarter acre lot. "Not inexpensive"? ROFLMAO. That shit would cost at least $2M in a nice suburb of a real city. But nobody wants to live in bumfuck middle Florida.

[thisismytlsuername]

Isn't that the dream? Making $250,000 doing 5 hours of work per week at a brand-name company?

Nah.

It’s interesting to see the change in perspective on TLS from 2012 to 2022. It used to be that the conventional wisdom was that any first year in Big law was an idiot not to do corporate because the “smart” plan was to do a couple years at a big firm and go in house.

This is still very very much the conventional wisdom.

[johndooley]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

No one doxes themselves here, I am not out to attract clients or build a professional reputation to rely on here (although the resume submission with identifying info scrubbed for an associate position is still on the table, if sufficient we can arrange an interview). If you drove around Orlando there is a good chance you would see me on a billboard, in a local paper, or on the radio like any decent medmal attorney. I do not know why the tasteful line is so funny to you, look at the houses below. They are pleasing and not inexpensive.

https://www.zillow.com/windermere-fl/?s ... 22%3A12%7D

You know you are a tool when you are advertising a city and one of the benefits you list is that it has relatively high housing costs lol.

The point was not to brag about my income or net worth. I could pretty easily afford a 3br on the Upper East Side or in Georgetown or a Beverly Hills condo. There are some beautiful cities with amenities that are inexpensive so people frown upon them for that reason. Orlando combines these amenities and scenery with high-end career opportunities and houses that have a healthy track record of appreciation. It accomplishes this while having less traffic, less competition for said opportunities, and a wider variety of neighborhood densities than the Upper East Side, Georgetown, or Beverly Hills.

LOL it's Orlando bro. $700k for a 3,300 square foot house on a quarter acre lot. "Not inexpensive"? ROFLMAO. That shit would cost at least $2M in a nice suburb of a real city. But nobody wants to live in bumfuck middle Florida.

The city is more expensive than most 50 largest metros. You can find the same house for about 1-1.3 in nice suburbs of Boston, Philadelphia, Dallas, and Chicago if you go 45 mins out.

As said, I can readily afford a house in a NY/DC suburb or expensive LA neighborhood upwards of 5. Why would I? I live on the water and WFH. I play tennis and golf outdoors in February. Aside from trial my hours are flexible. Why be demeaning to this arrangement?

[Anonymous User]

I don't think this thread should devolve into a "do ambulance chasers provide a necessary service or not?" debate. Everyone has heard both sides ad nauseam. There is a child under 5, severally physically handicapped for life due to a very preventable mistake by the OB, that now has the money to have needed assistance for the next 80 or so years. I feel good about that.

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

No one doxes themselves here, I am not out to attract clients or build a professional reputation to rely on here (although the resume submission with identifying info scrubbed for an associate position is still on the table, if sufficient we can arrange an interview). If you drove around Orlando there is a good chance you would see me on a billboard, in a local paper, or on the radio like any decent medmal attorney. I do not know why the tasteful line is so funny to you, look at the houses below. They are pleasing and not inexpensive.

https://www.zillow.com/windermere-fl/?s ... 22%3A12%7D

You know you are a tool when you are advertising a city and one of the benefits you list is that it has relatively high housing costs lol.

The point was not to brag about my income or net worth. I could pretty easily afford a 3br on the Upper East Side or in Georgetown or a Beverly Hills condo. There are some beautiful cities with amenities that are inexpensive so people frown upon them for that reason. Orlando combines these amenities and scenery with high-end career opportunities and houses that have a healthy track record of appreciation. It accomplishes this while having less traffic, less competition for said opportunities, and a wider variety of neighborhood densities than the Upper East Side, Georgetown, or Beverly Hills.

LOL it's Orlando bro. $700k for a 3,300 square foot house on a quarter acre lot. "Not inexpensive"? ROFLMAO. That shit would cost at least $2M in a nice suburb of a real city. But nobody wants to live in bumfuck middle Florida.

The city is more expensive than most 50 largest metros. You can find the same house for about 1-1.3 in nice suburbs of Boston, Philadelphia, Dallas, and Chicago if you go 45 mins out.

As said, I can readily afford a house in a NY/DC suburb or expensive LA neighborhood upwards of 5. Why would I? I live on the water and WFH. I play tennis and golf outdoors in February. Aside from trial my hours are flexible. Why be demeaning to this arrangement?

Hey man if you're loving your life, that's cool, but it's still middle Florida. There's a reason those houses are so cheap. But it's pretty cringe to try to sell your quaint town as "not inexpensive". "Hey BigLaw lawyers, I'm not poor either even though I went to a TTT!" LOL

[GFox345]

If bar passage was not a requirement then salaries would be at least halved and polisci majors from less reputable universities would take your place at age 22 without any discernible difference in deal outcomes or transaction volume.

I'm don't think that's really the case case. If Biglaw was willing to take people from "less reputable universities" they could have filled their classes five times over with T3/4 law school graduates. If you removed the need for any formal legal training, the system would probably look more like ibanking/consulting/big4 accounting. Just more tiers beyond Associate/counsel/Partner and a more pyramid-like structure.

Depends if it is litigation v corporate/tax/trust and estates etc. Clients will pay for highly trained litigators even if the ABA’s guild-like policies aren’t in place. A lot of transactional work is comprised of glorified paralegal tasks. Removing that high barrier to entry would change a lot of clients’ outlook on what they really need in the way of legal services.

I don't think so. I agree that this job doesn't require bar passage or intelligence.

But it does require you to be Type-A/on top of your shit/organized whatever you want to call it. Although that sounds like a really low bar, like 90% of my fucking juniors are below it.

So, yes there are smart high schoolers that could do this job. There just aren't that many, which is why the ones that can, get paid what they get paid.

As for is this a bullshit job? Sorta. We could (and used to) do this job in a much more straightforward, simple manner than the way we currently are doing it. Look at any merger/debt doc from the 80s - they're like 1/5th the size and complexity of docs now. I think if we went back to those simpler days, legal collections would go down, and we'd make less money, but our job would be significantly less bullshit.

Yeah, there haven't been any changes in the last forty years that could possibly account for merger docs being longer and more complex now.

You forgot your signature below:

- Someone Insecure Who Knows Their Job is Bullshit

Man, you really are in every thread, now, huh? Glad you feel confident weighing in on the dynamics of biglaw transactional roles and in-house counsel roles as a med-mal lawyer in... Orlando, is it? Also loved your thoughts on what it takes to break into academia and then acquire and maintain a tenure-track position. Care to weigh in on what the day-to-day looks like for SCOTUS clerk? Also would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to get DOJ honors, i'm sure you've got a take on that.

These corporate guys are straight up shook. lol

[johndooley]

Johnny D, post a link to your firm website broseph. We want to see the work you do from your palatial office in tasteful Orlando.

No one doxes themselves here, I am not out to attract clients or build a professional reputation to rely on here (although the resume submission with identifying info scrubbed for an associate position is still on the table, if sufficient we can arrange an interview). If you drove around Orlando there is a good chance you would see me on a billboard, in a local paper, or on the radio like any decent medmal attorney. I do not know why the tasteful line is so funny to you, look at the houses below. They are pleasing and not inexpensive.

https://www.zillow.com/windermere-fl/?s ... 22%3A12%7D

You know you are a tool when you are advertising a city and one of the benefits you list is that it has relatively high housing costs lol.

The point was not to brag about my income or net worth. I could pretty easily afford a 3br on the Upper East Side or in Georgetown or a Beverly Hills condo. There are some beautiful cities with amenities that are inexpensive so people frown upon them for that reason. Orlando combines these amenities and scenery with high-end career opportunities and houses that have a healthy track record of appreciation. It accomplishes this while having less traffic, less competition for said opportunities, and a wider variety of neighborhood densities than the Upper East Side, Georgetown, or Beverly Hills.

LOL it's Orlando bro. $700k for a 3,300 square foot house on a quarter acre lot. "Not inexpensive"? ROFLMAO. That shit would cost at least $2M in a nice suburb of a real city. But nobody wants to live in bumfuck middle Florida.

The city is more expensive than most 50 largest metros. You can find the same house for about 1-1.3 in nice suburbs of Boston, Philadelphia, Dallas, and Chicago if you go 45 mins out.

As said, I can readily afford a house in a NY/DC suburb or expensive LA neighborhood upwards of 5. Why would I? I live on the water and WFH. I play tennis and golf outdoors in February. Aside from trial my hours are flexible. Why be demeaning to this arrangement?

Hey man if you're loving your life, that's cool, but it's still middle Florida. There's a reason those houses are so cheap. But it's pretty cringe and lacking self-awareness to try to sell your quaint town as "not inexpensive".

Here is a ranking of the fifty largest American cities and their affordability: https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/be ... omebuyers/

Can you please give a definition of what is "cheap" for a house? Orlando is one of the more expensive American markets. And in regards to your knock on middle Florida, it is one of the most visited places in the country, most Americans have traveled far to see it, how bad can it be then?

Orlando is not "quaint." It is a vibrant city with F500 companies, a rich international community, and high-end activities. Some of the country's best golf and tennis facilities are in the area along with well-stocked fishing and hunting opportunities. There are also universities and good schools.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/9291 ... 8293_zpid/

[Anonymous User]

The med mal lawyer whos built his own practice and goes to trial sounds way cooler than some transactional associate that argues over reps and warranties all day.

Also bragging about living in Manhattan when you don't own property there and/or are not part of the NYC moneyed elite is just pathetic

[johndooley]

I'm don't think that's really the case case. If Biglaw was willing to take people from "less reputable universities" they could have filled their classes five times over with T3/4 law school graduates. If you removed the need for any formal legal training, the system would probably look more like ibanking/consulting/big4 accounting. Just more tiers beyond Associate/counsel/Partner and a more pyramid-like structure.

Depends if it is litigation v corporate/tax/trust and estates etc. Clients will pay for highly trained litigators even if the ABA’s guild-like policies aren’t in place. A lot of transactional work is comprised of glorified paralegal tasks. Removing that high barrier to entry would change a lot of clients’ outlook on what they really need in the way of legal services.

I don't think so. I agree that this job doesn't require bar passage or intelligence.

But it does require you to be Type-A/on top of your shit/organized whatever you want to call it. Although that sounds like a really low bar, like 90% of my fucking juniors are below it.

So, yes there are smart high schoolers that could do this job. There just aren't that many, which is why the ones that can, get paid what they get paid.

As for is this a bullshit job? Sorta. We could (and used to) do this job in a much more straightforward, simple manner than the way we currently are doing it. Look at any merger/debt doc from the 80s - they're like 1/5th the size and complexity of docs now. I think if we went back to those simpler days, legal collections would go down, and we'd make less money, but our job would be significantly less bullshit.

Yeah, there haven't been any changes in the last forty years that could possibly account for merger docs being longer and more complex now.

You forgot your signature below:

- Someone Insecure Who Knows Their Job is Bullshit

Man, you really are in every thread, now, huh? Glad you feel confident weighing in on the dynamics of biglaw transactional roles and in-house counsel roles as a med-mal lawyer in... Orlando, is it? Also loved your thoughts on what it takes to break into academia and then acquire and maintain a tenure-track position. Care to weigh in on what the day-to-day looks like for SCOTUS clerk? Also would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to get DOJ honors, i'm sure you've got a take on that.

These corporate guys are straight up shook. lol

Lol I did not realize saying a major American city with plenty of second homes on lakes outside the downtown would upset so many. I work with many different sorts of people and attorneys in medmal and do not live under a rock.

[johndooley]

The med mal lawyer whos built his own practice and goes to trial sounds way cooler than some transactional associate that argues over reps and warranties all day.

Also bragging about living in Manhattan when you don't own property there and/or are not part of the NYC moneyed elite is just pathetic

Thank you. To the others: I am not trying to brag, just shedding some light here on another path that some 3Ls may be overlooking as they are about to begin their careers.

And yes, boasting about living in a huge place anyone can move to is cringe if you both rent and are not a player there. Give me a break.