DPW pushing people out Forum

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

What's the longest you've seen an associate stick around who (1) hasn't been pushed out and (2) didn't make partner, NEP, or some other long term non-associate position?

20, 25, 30 years.

Many firms have staff attorney/non-partner tracks that people stay on forever (and are generally called something else) but some firms actually do have a couple associates who were nominally partner track and paid like it who just inertia’d forever.

It’s functionally equivalent to the perma-counsel who exist everywhere and 99% of the associates who last get the title bump. So you might think not giving that last 1% the better title is pure spite, but really there are internal politics/requirements for counsel at some firms that may not be technically met by the associate or other restrictions (sometimes small groups who promote someone in title, even to counsel, have a quota of not doing so again for multiple years).

One of my coworkers is a 50-year-old associate who can’t get promoted because of some blood feud with a longtime member of the management committee who refuses to allow it, but the partners in the group like him and insist he stays. So *that* one is spite, lol.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

I once saw a firm push out some 12-20 year associates. But is was an unbelievably nice push. The rumor was that the senior associates were told that they had no chance of ever making partner and that the firm was interested in ultimately getting more junior people on their work, but they had as long as they wanted or needed to find something new and would get full support from the firm.

[Anonymous User]

I once saw a firm push out some 12-20 year associates. But is was an unbelievably nice push. The rumor was that the senior associates were told that they had no chance of ever making partner and that the firm was interested in ultimately getting more junior people on their work, but they had as long as they wanted or needed to find something new and would get full support from the firm.

This is what my firm does. Soft push, but I wouldn't want to find out what happens if you ignore it.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

I once saw a firm push out some 12-20 year associates. But is was an unbelievably nice push. The rumor was that the senior associates were told that they had no chance of ever making partner and that the firm was interested in ultimately getting more junior people on their work, but they had as long as they wanted or needed to find something new and would get full support from the firm.

This is what my firm does. Soft push, but I wouldn't want to find out what happens if you ignore it.

Agree. Definitely uncomfortable. At my firm at least one stayed on more than a year after the push. I think the associate was looking for a pretty niche in house job so it took some time.

[Anonymous User]

I've been at 2 different NYC V10s, and I've never seen a good associate pushed out.

I've seen some associates who believed they were on track for partnership get blindsided and kept out of the ranks, and then they've left on their own accord, but I haven't seen either firm specifically ask someone to leave who is (i) well-liked; (ii) has a good reputation and (iii) is billing enough hours.

Of course, maybe the associates that left on their own accord actually got asked to leave and didn't want to reveal that info to me - I'd have no way of knowing, but I would be surprised. Almost universally all firms don't have enough talent at the middle and top of the hierarchy. There's no reason to push out someone who's good at their job and willing to take on a non-equity role.

What's the longest you've seen an associate stick around who (1) hasn't been pushed out and (2) didn't make partner, NEP, or some other long term non-associate position?

I've seen a 10th, 14th and 16th year associates.

Typically, if you're at 10+ years, you're going to get the counsel title. Each had individual personal circumstances that kept them from the counsel title (two were working on reduced pace with time off and one was an asshole no one liked (but pretty good at his job and had billable clients)).

Most people leave on their own accord because of burn-out / this job sucks. If you're managing to bill 2000 hours per year, you're making the firm money and its silly to fire you because you're "old". (As a side note - always funny to me we consider them old - usually you reach senior associate stage in your mid 30s lol).

[Anonymous User]

I've been at 2 different NYC V10s, and I've never seen a good associate pushed out.

I've seen some associates who believed they were on track for partnership get blindsided and kept out of the ranks, and then they've left on their own accord, but I haven't seen either firm specifically ask someone to leave who is (i) well-liked; (ii) has a good reputation and (iii) is billing enough hours.

Of course, maybe the associates that left on their own accord actually got asked to leave and didn't want to reveal that info to me - I'd have no way of knowing, but I would be surprised. Almost universally all firms don't have enough talent at the middle and top of the hierarchy. There's no reason to push out someone who's good at their job and willing to take on a non-equity role.

What's the longest you've seen an associate stick around who (1) hasn't been pushed out and (2) didn't make partner, NEP, or some other long term non-associate position?

Mere summer here, but I know of a 15th year lit associate at my V10. Most senior guy in our corp shop is a 12th year.

This is at a firm that has—and uses—"of counsel" positions for senior non-partner folks. So not sure what the deal is with these two...

[Anonymous User]

I've been at 2 different NYC V10s, and I've never seen a good associate pushed out.

I've seen some associates who believed they were on track for partnership get blindsided and kept out of the ranks, and then they've left on their own accord, but I haven't seen either firm specifically ask someone to leave who is (i) well-liked; (ii) has a good reputation and (iii) is billing enough hours.

Of course, maybe the associates that left on their own accord actually got asked to leave and didn't want to reveal that info to me - I'd have no way of knowing, but I would be surprised. Almost universally all firms don't have enough talent at the middle and top of the hierarchy. There's no reason to push out someone who's good at their job and willing to take on a non-equity role.

What's the longest you've seen an associate stick around who (1) hasn't been pushed out and (2) didn't make partner, NEP, or some other long term non-associate position?

Mere summer here, but I know of a 15th year lit associate at my V10. Most senior guy in our corp shop is a 12th year.

This is at a firm that has—and uses—"of counsel" positions for senior non-partner folks. So not sure what the deal is with these two...

15 years at a V10? Or moved around, traded up, etc. Litigation is more fungible, it's easier to get into biglaw after getting experience elsewhere. Possible that your 15th year is actually a midlevel.

[Anonymous User]

I've been at 2 different NYC V10s, and I've never seen a good associate pushed out.

I've seen some associates who believed they were on track for partnership get blindsided and kept out of the ranks, and then they've left on their own accord, but I haven't seen either firm specifically ask someone to leave who is (i) well-liked; (ii) has a good reputation and (iii) is billing enough hours.

Of course, maybe the associates that left on their own accord actually got asked to leave and didn't want to reveal that info to me - I'd have no way of knowing, but I would be surprised. Almost universally all firms don't have enough talent at the middle and top of the hierarchy. There's no reason to push out someone who's good at their job and willing to take on a non-equity role.

What's the longest you've seen an associate stick around who (1) hasn't been pushed out and (2) didn't make partner, NEP, or some other long term non-associate position?

Mere summer here, but I know of a 15th year lit associate at my V10. Most senior guy in our corp shop is a 12th year.

This is at a firm that has—and uses—"of counsel" positions for senior non-partner folks. So not sure what the deal is with these two...

15 years at a V10? Or moved around, traded up, etc. Litigation is more fungible, it's easier to get into biglaw after getting experience elsewhere. Possible that your 15th year is actually a midlevel.

That's what I thought, but... No. Been at the firm since graduating law school. Hasn't even clerked.

[Anonymous User]

At some point, especially 10+ years in, it's typical to make the transition to either (non-equity) partner or of counsel, even just as a face-saving exercise for both sides (it's a little weird to have a 14th year super associate). There was a story a few back about how someone got stuck in a super associate role because of a "blood feud" (great phrase) with someone on the management committee and I feel like that's descriptive for how many people end up in that spot, i.e., there's some odd ad hoc story which has prevented the of counsel / non-equity transition (which usually would come with an attendant comp bump) but at that same time they're valuable enough that the firm doesn't want to let them go if they're still willing to stay. Also, as an aside, being stuck with an "associate" title as someone in your mid-to-late 30s (or worse) can make it hard to lateral and is going to invite a conversation at every interview.

[Anonymous User]

Isn't counsel just another version of "up" in up or out? For the most part, not just anybody can make counsel. For example, my firm has a "special counsel" role, but it's not automatic and you have to be selected for it (similar process to partnership). People who don't make special counsel or partner leave soon after getting shot down. I'm not sure if the firm explicitly tells them to leave or whether there's some unspoken rule, but regardless that sounds a lot like up or out to me.

[Anonymous User]

Isn't counsel just another version of "up" in up or out? For the most part, not just anybody can make counsel. For example, my firm has a "special counsel" role, but it's not automatic and you have to be selected for it (similar process to partnership). People who don't make special counsel or partner leave soon after getting shot down. I'm not sure if the firm explicitly tells them to leave or whether there's some unspoken rule, but regardless that sounds a lot like up or out to me.

Depends on the firm I suppose, but at both firms I've been at, the counsel title was very achievable. It's more or less the title that partner used to be - it's expected that you'll get it if you put in your time. I wouldn't consider that "up or out". In fact, you're not even making materially more money usually as a counsel vs. senior associate.

I think a lot of junior associates and law students think "it can't be as simple as just working there long enough, otherwise more people would become counsels/partners". It's weirdly both extremely easy and hard at the same time. All you have to do is work hard for ~10 years. Sounds easy, but is extremely hard in practice with the amount of hours and stress this job brings. If you pick your head up around end of your third year, you'll notice only half your class is around. Then look again at end of year 6 and you'll notice there's only a handful of you and a couple of laterals (or you're one of the laterals). By the time you get to like 10 years - you're one of a few and just by virtue of having been there so long, you end up knowing quite a lot.

[Anonymous User]

In fact, you're not even making materially more money usually as a counsel vs. senior associate.

At one firm I worked at counsel is paid at the highest level of the vault associate scale. At another firm I worked at, counsel make a lot less than senior associates, and pay is based entirely on a collections formula. At lower vault firms that follow the Cravath scale, staying on the associate track gives you cover from normal market forces. ATL/TLS are like our union reps.

[Sackboy]

I personally know a 16th year Associate at one V50, a 17th year Counsel at another V50 (this is their equivalent of NEP), and a 33rd year Counsel at another V50 (that I think uses counsel as the NEP equivalent). All of these folks are either in litigation or another practice where margins aren't particularly great and you somewhat need your own book. If you want to make partner, be a transactional lawyer at a V10 like DPW or a litigator at a boutique. V50s seem to be partnership hell. While a V10 just wants you to bill a lot and be phenomenal, a V50 will actually want a book a lot of times.

[Anonymous User]

In fact, you're not even making materially more money usually as a counsel vs. senior associate.

At one firm I worked at counsel is paid at the highest level of the vault associate scale. At another firm I worked at, counsel make a lot less than senior associates, and pay is based entirely on a collections formula. At lower vault firms that follow the Cravath scale, staying on the associate track gives you cover from normal market forces. ATL/TLS are like our union reps.

biglaw associate union when?

[johndooley]

My end game is interacting with you as little as possible going forward given how you're behaving in this thread. I am not trying to argue here and I certainly don't want to do some point by point debate. I will start my endgame ... now.

*knows they are going to lose on point by point debate*
*I don't want to do some point by point debate*

How am I supposed to "behave" when you post demonstrably false statements, somehow accuse me of being wrong without backing it up, and in general refuse to engage with your original post or well-reasoned counterpoints? I'm all ears.

I normally try not to accuse people of being "wrong" without being able to back it up (which I did, you didn't), but perhaps you're more comfortable with that type of behavior than I am. Two words of advice: (1) when you say something that's wrong just own up to it, it will be far less stressful for all and (2) don't treat your practice like this, or you'll be precisely the type of person who moves out, rather than up.

Holy shit I hope both of you die

How is Dooley not in this thread yet

It is difficult to fathom how you all live and think like this. 20-30 year associates, law firm "prestige" pissing contests, and dealing with posters like the one above who is a total twerp. Insufferable. And I still make more than any of you, statistically.

[Anonymous User]

My end game is interacting with you as little as possible going forward given how you're behaving in this thread. I am not trying to argue here and I certainly don't want to do some point by point debate. I will start my endgame ... now.

*knows they are going to lose on point by point debate*
*I don't want to do some point by point debate*

How am I supposed to "behave" when you post demonstrably false statements, somehow accuse me of being wrong without backing it up, and in general refuse to engage with your original post or well-reasoned counterpoints? I'm all ears.

I normally try not to accuse people of being "wrong" without being able to back it up (which I did, you didn't), but perhaps you're more comfortable with that type of behavior than I am. Two words of advice: (1) when you say something that's wrong just own up to it, it will be far less stressful for all and (2) don't treat your practice like this, or you'll be precisely the type of person who moves out, rather than up.

Holy shit I hope both of you die

How is Dooley not in this thread yet

It is difficult to fathom how you all live and think like this. 20-30 year associates, law firm "prestige" pissing contests, and dealing with posters like the one above who is a total twerp. Insufferable. And I still make more than any of you, statistically.

Man calls it like it is.

[Anonymous User]

Dooley goat. Makes $15mm a year on med mal.

[johndooley]

Dooley goat. Makes $15mm a year on med mal.

I wish I made that much! My income has been in seven figures through law and investments via a pipeline that is reasonably solid. There are some headwinds in medmal so I diversify in real estate and ETFs (I would need at least two children with private HS/private college/JD/MBA to deplete it, I deposited a large amount initially after one particularly sizable settlement and have not put a penny more in, no regrets because I would like many children). I do own about 35 rental units outright (a collection of duplexes and triplexes with one 10+ unit building) and about 75 mortgaged in Central Florida. I am looking to diversify in either Houston or Atlanta in low-end retail specifically. I think if I can get to a portfolio of 300+ residential units and half a dozen strip malls I will have a nest egg such that I can forgo my practice should it dry up. Never say never on the $15mm a year, I would need just be more comfortable with leverage.

[johndooley]

What's the longest you've seen an associate stick around who (1) hasn't been pushed out and (2) didn't make partner, NEP, or some other long term non-associate position?

20, 25, 30 years.

Many firms have staff attorney/non-partner tracks that people stay on forever (and are generally called something else) but some firms actually do have a couple associates who were nominally partner track and paid like it who just inertia’d forever.

It’s functionally equivalent to the perma-counsel who exist everywhere and 99% of the associates who last get the title bump. So you might think not giving that last 1% the better title is pure spite, but really there are internal politics/requirements for counsel at some firms that may not be technically met by the associate or other restrictions (sometimes small groups who promote someone in title, even to counsel, have a quota of not doing so again for multiple years).

One of my coworkers is a 50-year-old associate who can’t get promoted because of some blood feud with a longtime member of the management committee who refuses to allow it, but the partners in the group like him and insist he stays. So *that* one is spite, lol.

I cannot imagine being in your 40s and 50s and telling your family you are a permanent associate because of personal spite. That is humiliating to an extent that is hard to swallow and is a wasted life.