2023 Vault/Firsthand Rankings Forum

[Anonymous User]

So did we all forget about Goodwin's stealth layoffs at the beginning of 2020?

[BrowsingTLS]

So did we all forget about Goodwin's stealth layoffs at the beginning of 2020?

I was disappointed to see that too, but glad Nixon Peabody which cancelled its summer class without offers in 2020 and JonesDay which screws its associates saw a drop.

And the other posters are right. Associates should be championing Milbank, DPW, and any firm that raises our compensation.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone choosing Milbank because of its now higher vault rank is ridiculous. It is simply not a comparable firm to those others directly surrounding it PW/GDC/Sid/Weil... Look at any OCI gpa tables, chambers ranks, profit metrics - this is getting to the point of being a "the cream do not go to White and Case" joke

That said, if Milbank is willing to keep raising salaries give it abritrary v0 status ahead of even Wachtell... just please no one confuse it with a truly elite firm

[Anonymous User]

Anyone choosing Milbank because of its now higher vault rank is ridiculous.

Applicants will pick a firm they perceive as a market mover on salaries, because that suggests firm financial health. A higher correlating vault rank may drive some additional applicants. Is that ridiculous?

No. Because Milbank is about to bring in a bunch of more competitive applicants than in years past. And that trend will lead to better work product down the road. Which will lead to winning more client pitches.

Is Milbank suddenly going to drink PW/GDC/Sid/Weil' milkshake? No. But this vault jump is a result of a growth strategy at Milbank that appears intended to solicit better associate talent. Better associates means better work product which can be used to drum up more business—so as to, eventually, pull business away from v10 firms.

Seems like a good time to join a firm that has jumped from v40 to v11 in less than a decade.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone choosing Milbank because of its now higher vault rank is ridiculous.

Applicants will pick a firm they perceive as a market mover on salaries, because that suggests firm financial health. A higher correlating vault rank may drive some additional applicants. Is that ridiculous?

No. Because Milbank is about to bring in a bunch of more competitive applicants than in years past. And that trend will lead to better work product down the road. Which will lead to winning more client pitches.

Is Milbank suddenly going to drink PW/GDC/Sid/Weil' milkshake? No. But this vault jump is a result of a growth strategy at Milbank that appears intended to solicit better associate talent. Better associates means better work product which can be used to drum up more business—so as to, eventually, pull business away from v10 firms.

Seems like a good time to join a firm that has jumped from v40 to v11 in less than a decade.

Yes, it is ridiculous... ppl might choose milbank over paul hastings/omelveny/some other random sub v20ish firm, but the idea that they can actually pull associate talent on par with ~v15 above is crazy. You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

[Anonymous User]

Anyone choosing Milbank because of its now higher vault rank is ridiculous. It is simply not a comparable firm to those others directly surrounding it PW/GDC/Sid/Weil... Look at any OCI gpa tables, chambers ranks, profit metrics - this is getting to the point of being a "the cream do not go to White and Case" joke

That said, if Milbank is willing to keep raising salaries give it abritrary v0 status ahead of even Wachtell... just please no one confuse it with a truly elite firm

Perhaps, but at my T-14, milbank has similar GPA ranges to at least sidley and weil.

In regards to profit tables, milbank has rpl and ppp on par w some of those named firms

[Anonymous User]

Latham still at #5 is peculiar. If anything KE should go to #5 and Latham should go to #7.

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

[Anonymous User]

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

It's kind of impressive how many things are wrong in this short of a post.

[Anonymous User]

You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

Sidley and Milbank are pretty interchangeable to me at least from a corporate perspective... Also, Gibson I guess.

While Milbank can't buy their way past a certain point in terms of strength of practice. I'd say that as someone who doesn't even pay attention to Vault much anymore except for the 1 week after publication, Milbank feels pretty well-ensconsed in the V15 these days--worse than Weil, Deb., and Cleary, but between the rest of the interchangeable litter, one may as well pick the one that raises.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone choosing Milbank because of its now higher vault rank is ridiculous. It is simply not a comparable firm to those others directly surrounding it PW/GDC/Sid/Weil... Look at any OCI gpa tables, chambers ranks, profit metrics - this is getting to the point of being a "the cream do not go to White and Case" joke

That said, if Milbank is willing to keep raising salaries give it abritrary v0 status ahead of even Wachtell... just please no one confuse it with a truly elite firm

Look Milbank is the next elite firm and you can complain about it or accept it and live with it. In 5 years people will be disparaging people who go to shitty law firms like Skadden, Latham, or Kirkland by telling them that Skadden will never be a DPW/CSM/S&C/M firm no matter what Skadden associates tell themselves. Then in 10 years Milbank will leave the shitty firms of DPW/CSM/S&C behind and we will be making fun of Davis Polk associates who clearly couldn't get a Milbank/Wachtell offer.

[Anonymous User]

I know the regional Vault rankings matter even less than the pointless nationwide rankings but for shits & giggles…

Big losers in NYC:
• S&C: -2 (#3 to #5)
• Cleary: -3 (#8 to #11)
• Debevoise: -3 (#9 to #12)

EDIT: apparently, these are not the new 2022 regional rankings — my bad

[Anonymous User]

You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

Sidley and Milbank are pretty interchangeable to me at least from a corporate perspective... Also, Gibson I guess.

While Milbank can't buy their way past a certain point in terms of strength of practice. I'd say that as someone who doesn't even pay attention to Vault much anymore except for the 1 week after publication, Milbank feels pretty well-ensconsed in the V15 these days--worse than Weil, Deb., and Cleary, but between the rest of the interchangeable litter, one may as well pick the one that raises.

More or less agree, except that GDC is more prestigious bc of its lit prowess, but ya GDC corp vs milbank corp meh

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Genuinely curious what makes a "true elite" corporate firm, if not profitability.

[Anonymous User]

Genuinely curious what makes a "true elite" corporate firm, if not profitability.

Think about why the Lakers are prestigious despite sucking recently (bubble chip doesn't count)

[nealric]

Anyone choosing Milbank because of its now higher vault rank is ridiculous.

Applicants will pick a firm they perceive as a market mover on salaries, because that suggests firm financial health. A higher correlating vault rank may drive some additional applicants. Is that ridiculous?

No. Because Milbank is about to bring in a bunch of more competitive applicants than in years past. And that trend will lead to better work product down the road. Which will lead to winning more client pitches.

Is Milbank suddenly going to drink PW/GDC/Sid/Weil' milkshake? No. But this vault jump is a result of a growth strategy at Milbank that appears intended to solicit better associate talent. Better associates means better work product which can be used to drum up more business—so as to, eventually, pull business away from v10 firms.

Seems like a good time to join a firm that has jumped from v40 to v11 in less than a decade.

Yes, it is ridiculous... ppl might choose milbank over paul hastings/omelveny/some other random sub v20ish firm, but the idea that they can actually pull associate talent on par with ~v15 above is crazy. You'd be insane to take a Milbank offer over sidley or weil, let alone PW/GDC. In fact, the thought of choosing milbank over PW/GDC is actually comical

This level of granularity is pretty silly. For the vast majority of incoming first years, all these firms are pretty fungible and outcomes will be far more determined by your practice group and your specific resume than any of these names.

[Anonymous User]

I know the regional Vault rankings matter even less than the pointless nationwide rankings but for shits & giggles…

Big losers in NYC:
• S&C: -2 (#3 to #5)
• Cleary: -3 (#8 to #11)
• Debevoise: -3 (#9 to #12)

Those haven't been updated yet. The only update is to the 100 ranking.

[Anonymous User]

Paying more money than other firms or raising the market is prestigious. And Vault is about prestige. So jumping for moving money is reasonable. You forget Milbank jumped 15 spots after it first raised market.

You think we respect Wachtell so highly because they work their associates more than other firms? No, it's the money. They also have a reputation justified or not for being exceedingly intelligent/doing more complex work than even their "peers."

Milbank has no real prestige. Dead stop.

Sorry they rejected you at OCI. And thanks for the anon non-argument.

Milbank to V10.

Lolz currently at a real v10. You cant just purchase true prestige… guess I presumed too much

No extra hate on Milbank, and even appreciate them pushing the salary envelope, but cmon

Nobody will remember you in 100 years. But stay SIMPing for prestige that nobody in this world cares about.

[Anonymous User]

"real v10"

[Anonymous User]

Latham still at #5 is peculiar. If anything KE should go to #5 and Latham should go to #7.

No way, LW is way harder to get than KE, and has the chambers band ranks to boot. Plus KE has a sweatshop rep.

this is embarrassing

[Anonymous User]

Is there any incentive for other firms in the V20 to be the market leaders moving forward? I work at a V10 that would probably never make such a move because doing so wouldn't help their ratings in these surveys anyway.

But I'm guessing a few other firms might bump up a spot or two following the milbank model (assuming they could match a re-raise).

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland to #7 -- KE associates on suicide watch.

Can confirm

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Paying more money than other firms or raising the market is prestigious. And Vault is about prestige. So jumping for moving money is reasonable. You forget Milbank jumped 15 spots after it first raised market.

You think we respect Wachtell so highly because they work their associates more than other firms? No, it's the money. They also have a reputation justified or not for being exceedingly intelligent/doing more complex work than even their "peers."

Milbank has no real prestige. Dead stop.

Sorry they rejected you at OCI. And thanks for the anon non-argument.

Milbank to V10.

Lolz currently at a real v10. You cant just purchase true prestige… guess I presumed too much

No extra hate on Milbank, and even appreciate them pushing the salary envelope, but cmon

Nobody will remember you in 100 years. But stay SIMPing for prestige that nobody in this world cares about.

I get this unfortunate attitude because I've been on both ends. At my V10, all I had was prestige because I sure as hell wasn't going to advance within the firm past maybe year 5. I had good relationships with my colleagues but, substantively, amounted to no more than a well-liked paper-churning cog. Now having lateraled to a V50 I'm getting put in front of rainmakers and being told, in detail, the firm's long term plans for me (including client interaction, etc). By the standards of many on TLS I've taken a huge L but it's become very clear to me how divergent that is from the reality of my day-to-day where I feel much more valued and secure long term.