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Mockingbird42

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Mockingbird42 » Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:38 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:59 am
Some tips I haven't seen here yet:

Wine glasses are held by the stem.

Wine glasses are only held by the stem if red. It’s mostly lunches so this doesn’t come up but don’t order red with seafood. Don’t put cheese on your seafood.

First gen, immigrant parents are from a non-western culture, and learned a lot of etiquette from my old world spouse.
Wine glasses should always be held by the stem, regardless of whether it’s red or white (or rose or orange). The idea is that the wine will be served to you at the correct temperature (~60-65 for red; ~45-50 for white). If you hold the bowl directly, the body heat from your hand will heat it up.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:40 am

My natural baseline eating pace is way, way too fast, so I typically pick somebody at the business meal who seems like a median-pace eater & drinker, and I peg my pace to them.

That person takes a few bites → I take a few comparable bites. That person pauses → I pause. The trick is to perform this mirroring in an easygoing, unobtrusive manner.

This works for me as a highly neurotic (but high functioning) person; it may not work for others.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:07 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:38 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:59 am
Some tips I haven't seen here yet:

Don't bite your dinner roll. Tear it into pieces and butter each piece.

If you order a burger or sandwich and it doesn't come cut in half, cut it in half first. It will be neater to eat that way.

To get the last bit of soup, tip the bowl away from you, not towards you.

If eating family style or if you need something to be passed (salt, pepper, butter), don't reach over a bunch of people. Ask for it to be passed to you. Also, don't take a massive serving - leave some for everyone else and wait to see if there's enough for everyone before taking seconds. And use the serving utensils, not your personal cutlery, to take portions of family style food.

Leave your napkin on the chair if you're going to the bathroom. Leave it on the table when you're done with the meal.

Use your butter knife for butter, not your dinner knife. Google the difference if you don't know.

Don't season your food before tasting it. It's inconsiderate to assume it's not seasoned enough without giving it a try first.

If you don't know how to use chopsticks, maybe you should learn. Personally I think it's kind of embarrassing when you're at a fancy Asian restaurant and need to ask for a fork (especially for sushi). Omakase is supposed to be eaten by hand but don't do that if no one else in your party is doing it.

Don't order alcohol if others aren't ordering alcohol.

Try not to get really drunk. Usually the norm is one to three drinks for most business dinners, unless you're doing a wine / cocktail / liquor tasting with the entire table.

If you need to take a work call, step out of the dining room. You can probably ignore most calls but sometimes things are urgent. The people you're dining with will understand and probably do it all the time themselves (especially the senior people). Contrary to normal social etiquette, at a Big Law business dinner, it's not weird or rude to put your work phone on the table - everyone will be checking their phone occasionally (not necessarily responding to emails, but just generally monitoring). But as a summer associate, you will probably never get any truly urgent email or phone call (unless you fucked something up).

Prix fixe is pronounced "pree feexe" not price fix. If everyone is getting prix fixe, you should too (and will probably be mandated to by the restaurant).

Wine glasses are held by the stem.

As soon as you're seated, put your napkin on your lap.

At a fine dining restaurant, the waiter will usually push your chair in for you as you sit down. Don't be alarmed. They may also help you take off your coat or put it on. They will also come by your table occasionally with a little tool to clear the crumbs off your table. They may also put a folded white napkin down over any stain you create on the white tablecloth (e.g., spilled red wine). These are all normal services and not to be commented on or reacted to.

Don't eat until everyone has their food. It should all come out at the same time but if it doesn't, wait.

If you don't like something, don't spit it out like a child. Just swallow it and don't eat any more of it. Don't make any comments about how you find it gross or weird (especially with food that may not be familiar to you - it may come off as racist at worst and uncultured at best). If anyone asks, just say it's not for you.

Try not to eat much faster than everyone else.

Don't talk the entire time. If you notice that someone has been silent the entire time or being talked over by everyone else, try to speak to them directly or give them an "in" into the conversation so that everyone at the table has a chance to talk.

No jeans.

Don't take food off your dining companion's plates.

Some restaurants will offer a stool or other place to put your purse, if you're carrying one.

Close your menu when you're done figuring out what you want to eat.

No double dipping. Also, if there's a sauce or condiment (like butter), take one large-ish scoop of it with the serving spoon or a butter knife, and put that portion on your plate, and use that portion to sauce up / butter your dish, as opposed to repeatedly going back for more sauce / condiment / butter multiple times. Don't drown your dish in ketchup or hot sauce - you will look childish.

The only thing you should slurp is an oyster, which you should eat whole.

A Western soup spoon is fatter than a normal spoon. But you probably won't have to worry about telling the difference because if you order soup, the waiter will likely bring the soup soon just for you - the soup spoon probably won't already be on the table. Same goes for red, white and dessert wine glasses - the waiter will likely bring the correct one just for you and you won't have to figure out which glass is for what. Dessert fork is smaller than a regular fork and will be on top of your plate as opposed to the left or right side.

If you don't know how to pronounce something, try pointing to it on the menu when the waiter comes to you instead of attempting to pronounce it. Or if there is a portion of it that you know how to pronounce, try saying that. E.g., "the first appetizer on the menu" instead of "squab with foie gras" or like "the chicken dish" instead of "coq au vin".

Source: Also first gen. Grew up knowing none of this but now regularly do fine dining business dinners.

Wine glasses are only held by the stem if red. It’s mostly lunches so this doesn’t come up but don’t order red with seafood. Don’t put cheese on your seafood.

First gen, immigrant parents are from a non-western culture, and learned a lot of etiquette from my old world spouse.
Wait why no red wine with seafood?
Red meat is paired with red wine. White meat (fish, chicken, etc.) is paired with white wine.

Absolutely no one will care about any of this at all. Seriously, just focus on not getting too drunk and not being racist/sexist/sexually inappropriate, and you'll be fine.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by nixy » Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:07 am
Wait why no red wine with seafood?
It’s not really an etiquette thing as much as a culinary thing (though as a culinary thing it’s sort of a class marker, like asking for ketchup for your potatoes at a fine French restaurant). The idea is that the flavors of seafood just don’t go well with red wine - they get overwhelmed by the more robust flavors or something like that. If you look at a lot of classic cooking, you cook seafood with white wine (think mussels) and meats with red wine (like steak).

I think that as with everything, though, if you drill down far enough it breaks down - for instance I’ve heard red wine works well with swordfish because it’s a heavier, meatier fish, and also, there are lots of different varieties so maybe a light red would work with a wider range of stuff, and then there’s rose, etc.

Honestly though just drink what you like. A food snob might care about this but they’ll probably find something to judge you on regardless so you might as well enjoy yourself.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:09 pm

If you're worried about what to drink, ask the sommelier if there is one, or just order a beer. Also, please don't stare at other people's plates. Hopefully they won't stare at yours. There's a lot of good advice in this thread but the bottom line acting weird is a lot worse than not knowing exactly the fancy rules. Cheese ≠ seafood is an Italian thing, you really don't have to follow it.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:44 pm

Several people on this thread said that it is totally normal to place one's phone on the table.

I very much disagree with this. Others may do it but I, and some more old school people like me, will find it rude, especially for a summer associate. Certainly there is not a message or call that person could receive that is more important than what others at the table could receive. Having the phone there signals that your attention is split and that something could come up that is more important than those around you. It also will encourage you to look at it more because it is right there.

Keep the phone in your jacket pocket or bag. If you truly need to check it, do so when you head to the restroom or, discretely pick it up to look once every 45 minutes or so. Nothing can be so pressing that it won't accommodate that timing.

Sure this might be overkill but given that many lawyers have trouble socializing to begin with, why entertain yet another distraction that is keeping you from connecting with those taking time out of their evening or day to be with you?

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:05 pm

Don't actually clink glasses when you toast. Especially if there are four or more people at the table. Just raise your glass and say "cheers" while making eye-contact.

Unless everyone else starts clinking glasses, then go with the flow.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by BrowsingTLS » Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:05 pm
Don't actually clink glasses when you toast. Especially if there are four or more people at the table. Just raise your glass and say "cheers" while making eye-contact.

Unless everyone else starts clinking glasses, then go with the flow.
And if you clink glasses you should obviously clink in order of seniority, starting with the most junior person and working your way up to the most senior. This is because you get better each clink and the most senior person should get your best clink.

Better doesn't mean stronger, by the way. My firm shitcanned a summer for breaking his glass against the senior associates, because a shard ripped the senior associate's white cloth. On that note, cloths should be tucked into your collar and not placed on your lap if you're sitting facing the windows. This is because window-shoppers should know you have manners. Think about it as having the logo facing out so people know you're better than them.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Ultramar vistas » Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:15 am
I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.
It might be overkill (I don’t think it is), but it’s also all correct. If someone does all those things, they won’t stand out in any setting, which is the whole goal of this thread - how to fit in.

The soup tilting direction is a great example - 90% of people won’t notice it, but the ones who do will be people who went to Philips Exeter or Eton, and they’ll approve, subconsciously or otherwise. Might as well add it to your bag.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Sackboy » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:17 pm

Really feel like this thread could have been stopped after my post, which was the first post in this thread besides OP. Don't be a freak, and you're fine. /thread

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by toile » Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:32 am

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:15 am
I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.
It might be overkill (I don’t think it is), but it’s also all correct. If someone does all those things, they won’t stand out in any setting, which is the whole goal of this thread - how to fit in.

The soup tilting direction is a great example - 90% of people won’t notice it, but the ones who do will be people who went to Philips Exeter or Eton, and they’ll approve, subconsciously or otherwise. Might as well add it to your bag.
I went to Philips Exeter or Eton; I have never in my life noticed the direction someone has tilted their soup.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Prudent_Jurist » Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:24 am

(1) If you have not gone through Toastmasters, what the fuck are you doing with your life?

(2) Real talk— just don’t be gross. DO NOT chew with your mouth open. DO NOT slurp liquids. DO NOT blow your nose in your napkin at the table.

Most of this is common sense. But during my summer, I was out to dinner with some partners, seniors, and other summers, and one summer just could not keep his mouth closed when he chewed: smacked his lips, made all kinds of noises. Everyone else there, myself included, probably broke some other minutiae of proper etiquette. But everyone noticed him, and everyone, as far as I know, gossiped about him behind his back.

He still got an offer; he did fine work, etc. Not sure if he’s still chewing like that. But if he is, he’s going to be near the bottom of the list for people to go eat with. Which is unfortunate given he’s a nice guy.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Ultramar vistas » Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:30 pm

toile wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:32 am
Ultramar vistas wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:15 am
I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.
It might be overkill (I don’t think it is), but it’s also all correct. If someone does all those things, they won’t stand out in any setting, which is the whole goal of this thread - how to fit in.

The soup tilting direction is a great example - 90% of people won’t notice it, but the ones who do will be people who went to Philips Exeter or Eton, and they’ll approve, subconsciously or otherwise. Might as well add it to your bag.
I went to Philips Exeter or Eton; I have never in my life noticed the direction someone has tilted their soup.
Guessing it was PE not Eton, or you would have learned that all cats are animals, but not all animals are cats!

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by dyemond » Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:02 pm

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:15 am
I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.
It might be overkill (I don’t think it is), but it’s also all correct. If someone does all those things, they won’t stand out in any setting, which is the whole goal of this thread - how to fit in.

The soup tilting direction is a great example - 90% of people won’t notice it, but the ones who do will be people who went to Philips Exeter or Eton, and they’ll approve, subconsciously or otherwise. Might as well add it to your bag.
I went to Choate Rosemary and would not give a shit.

Don't eat something messy, don't order a weird drink (if we all order wine, if you order a scorpion bowl or a long island, you will look like an idiot), chew with your mouth closed.

Anon's list from Monday is really what you should be following, although I hold wine glasses by the bowl all the time.

I've been at dinners with MDs from top PE shops and as long as you've got down 90% of it, the borderline stuff (soup spoons, holding by the stem, etc.) won't matter. Just follow the herd for the most part. SA dining etiquette is very much an exercise in not losing your offer - you have nothing to gain by being That Fun Guy/Gal.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Ultramar vistas » Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:16 pm

dyemond wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:02 pm
Ultramar vistas wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:15 am
I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.
It might be overkill (I don’t think it is), but it’s also all correct. If someone does all those things, they won’t stand out in any setting, which is the whole goal of this thread - how to fit in.

The soup tilting direction is a great example - 90% of people won’t notice it, but the ones who do will be people who went to Philips Exeter or Eton, and they’ll approve, subconsciously or otherwise. Might as well add it to your bag.
I went to Choate Rosemary and would not give a shit.

Don't eat something messy, don't order a weird drink (if we all order wine, if you order a scorpion bowl or a long island, you will look like an idiot), chew with your mouth closed.

Anon's list from Monday is really what you should be following, although I hold wine glasses by the bowl all the time.

I've been at dinners with MDs from top PE shops and as long as you've got down 90% of it, the borderline stuff (soup spoons, holding by the stem, etc.) won't matter. Just follow the herd for the most part. SA dining etiquette is very much an exercise in not losing your offer - you have nothing to gain by being That Fun Guy/Gal.
Astonishing that so many allegedly well educated people can miss the point of the post, which is that while you clearly do not need to learn the original poster’s laundry list of etiquette items, you will not be doing any harm in doing so, and in a few limited situations, you may find that they do actually win you some credibility, unconsciously or otherwise.

That’s not to make anyone anxious about eating from the right side of the soup bowl, but I assure you, there are people who notice the “overkill” items in the same way that almost everyone would notice someone eating with their mouth open, and many people will notice fringe etiquette items like napkin placement / how to eat dinner rolls.

A whole series of prep school educated people telling us that they don’t see these things doesn’t change that some will; so if, and only if, you have the time and inclination, you might as well read the list and add them to your habits.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:08 pm

Do we have any cotillion school graduates who can weigh in?

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:15 pm

I went to Le Rosey in Switzerland, Deerfield, Riverdale, and Scarsdale High School. I always hold my wine glass by the bowl. It's more stable, and I don't care if the temperature changes 0.5 degrees. Plus, by making this little faux pas, I'm a bit more relatable to my proletarian colleagues.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by toile » Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:05 pm

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:16 pm
dyemond wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:02 pm
Ultramar vistas wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:15 am
I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.
It might be overkill (I don’t think it is), but it’s also all correct. If someone does all those things, they won’t stand out in any setting, which is the whole goal of this thread - how to fit in.

The soup tilting direction is a great example - 90% of people won’t notice it, but the ones who do will be people who went to Philips Exeter or Eton, and they’ll approve, subconsciously or otherwise. Might as well add it to your bag.
I went to Choate Rosemary and would not give a shit.

Don't eat something messy, don't order a weird drink (if we all order wine, if you order a scorpion bowl or a long island, you will look like an idiot), chew with your mouth closed.

Anon's list from Monday is really what you should be following, although I hold wine glasses by the bowl all the time.

I've been at dinners with MDs from top PE shops and as long as you've got down 90% of it, the borderline stuff (soup spoons, holding by the stem, etc.) won't matter. Just follow the herd for the most part. SA dining etiquette is very much an exercise in not losing your offer - you have nothing to gain by being That Fun Guy/Gal.
Astonishing that so many allegedly well educated people can miss the point of the post, which is that while you clearly do not need to learn the original poster’s laundry list of etiquette items, you will not be doing any harm in doing so, and in a few limited situations, you may find that they do actually win you some credibility, unconsciously or otherwise.

That’s not to make anyone anxious about eating from the right side of the soup bowl, but I assure you, there are people who notice the “overkill” items in the same way that almost everyone would notice someone eating with their mouth open, and many people will notice fringe etiquette items like napkin placement / how to eat dinner rolls.

A whole series of prep school educated people telling us that they don’t see these things doesn’t change that some will; so if, and only if, you have the time and inclination, you might as well read the list and add them to your habits.
Or perhaps you're the one missing the point here.

You're trying to speak to the perceptions of a class of people, of whom you are not a part, to give misguided advice to the equally clueless. We prep school kids are just saying that we and our peers largely don't think the way you're describing. It's misleading to suggest that ~only~ 90% of people don't notice the direction of a soup tilt—more likely the 1 out of 1000 person who does notice is borderline deranged anyhow. There's no plausible world in which you are both taking etiquette advice from this thread, and also capable of sufficiently adjust your behavior to win "subconscious points" with that person.

(Personally, I only ding the rubes who place their finished cutlery in the continent style, like savages).

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:34 pm

All of this has me thinking: how much does being of that specific social class help you in biglaw (even post-hiring)? At my T6 there was a definite social divide between some of the Acela-corridor UMC people (who all went to ivies for UG) and much of the rest of the class, and they seemed to outperform in hiring.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:34 pm
All of this has me thinking: how much does being of that specific social class help you in biglaw (even post-hiring)? At my T6 there was a definite social divide between some of the Acela-corridor UMC people (who all went to ivies for UG) and much of the rest of the class, and they seemed to outperform in hiring.
I think being upper middle class (or above) does help in biglaw. Most associates in my group at my NYC v20 would fit that description for sure. Most went to private high schools and colleges. Plus, I could just tell by the type of clothes, watches, bags, etc. that they showed up with on day 1 of stub year.

A handful grew up in less fortunate circumstances, and it's extremely obvious to me who those people are. But that has nothing to do with work, and I genuinely do not care about it. It's only an issue when people make it an issue by, e.g., acting extremely insecure about their status, or affecting weird faux-fancy behaviors like complaining the service and food at free dinners isn't good enough.

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by Ultramar vistas » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:05 pm

toile wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:05 pm

Or perhaps you're the one missing the point here.

You're trying to speak to the perceptions of a class of people, of whom you are not a part, to give misguided advice to the equally clueless. We prep school kids are just saying that we and our peers largely don't think the way you're describing. It's misleading to suggest that ~only~ 90% of people don't notice the direction of a soup tilt—more likely the 1 out of 1000 person who does notice is borderline deranged anyhow. There's no plausible world in which you are both taking etiquette advice from this thread, and also capable of sufficiently adjust your behavior to win "subconscious points" with that person.

(Personally, I only ding the rubes who place their finished cutlery in the continent style, like savages).
Thanks for incorrectly guessing at my background? Weird.

The only person who’s claimed to speak for “we prep school kids” is you. And despite repeating and rehashing the same post over again, you haven’t actually spoken to my point, which is that 5 minutes of learning will never do you any harm, but might one day do you some benefit - so you might as well learn the “correct” etiquette.

It’s like Pascal’s wager, except I’m not even suggesting you do anything so difficult as pretend to believe in God. Literally just skim the above list and take a mental note. Seriously, the amount of offense you’re taking to this moderate suggestion is wildly disproportionate to the amount of effort I am suggesting people take.

I’m done engaging, people can listen or not.

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jc9812

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by jc9812 » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:06 pm

Sackboy wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:17 pm
Really feel like this thread could have been stopped after my post, which was the first post in this thread besides OP. Don't be a freak, and you're fine. /thread
Seriously what is happening in this thread. Just use common sense, it’s a work dinner. I am also first gen and I understand that culture shock is real at fancy law schools and in biglaw, but good lord. Do you people who typed out 20 page manuals on table etiquette monitor your dinners to see who’s complying with your made up rules?

jc9812

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by jc9812 » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:12 pm

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:15 am
I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.
It might be overkill (I don’t think it is), but it’s also all correct. If someone does all those things, they won’t stand out in any setting, which is the whole goal of this thread - how to fit in.

The soup tilting direction is a great example - 90% of people won’t notice it, but the ones who do will be people who went to Philips Exeter or Eton, and they’ll approve, subconsciously or otherwise. Might as well add it to your bag.
what a way to go through life.

toile

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by toile » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:45 pm

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:05 pm
toile wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:05 pm

Or perhaps you're the one missing the point here.

You're trying to speak to the perceptions of a class of people, of whom you are not a part, to give misguided advice to the equally clueless. We prep school kids are just saying that we and our peers largely don't think the way you're describing. It's misleading to suggest that ~only~ 90% of people don't notice the direction of a soup tilt—more likely the 1 out of 1000 person who does notice is borderline deranged anyhow. There's no plausible world in which you are both taking etiquette advice from this thread, and also capable of sufficiently adjust your behavior to win "subconscious points" with that person.

(Personally, I only ding the rubes who place their finished cutlery in the continent style, like savages).
Thanks for incorrectly guessing at my background? Weird.

The only person who’s claimed to speak for “we prep school kids” is you. And despite repeating and rehashing the same post over again, you haven’t actually spoken to my point, which is that 5 minutes of learning will never do you any harm, but might one day do you some benefit - so you might as well learn the “correct” etiquette.

It’s like Pascal’s wager, except I’m not even suggesting you do anything so difficult as pretend to believe in God. Literally just skim the above list and take a mental note. Seriously, the amount of offense you’re taking to this moderate suggestion is wildly disproportionate to the amount of effort I am suggesting people take.

I’m done engaging, people can listen or not.
I'm just responding to your own words here; you're the one referring to a "whole series" of people giving a point of view contrary your advice.
A whole series of prep school educated people telling us that they don’t see these things doesn’t change that some will; so if, and only if, you have the time and inclination, you might as well read the list and add them to your habits.
If you are actually a prep school kid, weird for you to include yourself in the "us" rather than the "they." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And I'm not trying to engage in a dick measuring contest about background here, I'm just trying to reassure people who are actually nervous about fitting in to social settings that most people don't give a shit how many affectations you put on.

Don't get too drunk, don't chew with your mouth open, and realize we're not silently judging which knife you use to butter your roll. It's a waste of bandwidth and energy to be thinking about these things when you could be engaging with your colleagues as people. In fact, being hyperconscious about affectations and trying to remember a list of the "right behaviors" is probably counterproductive, because it's just going to make your movements more nervous and awkward.

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blair.waldorf

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Re: comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates

Post by blair.waldorf » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:32 am

Did people really have to learn to not burp at the table or eat off of someone else’s plate?

I knew lawyers were socially inept but JFC.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
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