Do you have a drinking problem? Forum

[Anonymous User]

For a while my partner and I were drinking two bottles of a wine a night. Typically a glass while cooking/unwinding after work, a glass or two during dinner chatting, and a glass or two while doing chores/watching TV/scrolling, etc. Then off to bed. A bottle of wine might be around $15. That comes to about $11,000 a year, almost a grand a month. Before tax. In reality, it wasn't actually every night, but the grand total seemed so excessive that it actually made a difference in our mentality. Obviously mental and physical health should matter more and be more motivating than money, but we're in the law, so that's never a given. Anyway, one more point to consider.

[Saami]

I've never had an alcoholic beverage in my life and never intend to.

[Anonymous User]

Probably about a total of 5-10 drinks (counting as a beer, glass of wine, 1.5 oz whiskey)

Believe the official recommendation is about 15 a week, so I think I'm fine.

[Anonymous User]

I have the perverse benefit of a family history of alcoholism, so it's on my mind a lot. I probably drink 1-2 times a week with 1-3 drinks per outing, don't keep alcohol in the house, etc. If I kept alcohol in the house, I'd be drinking every night. I also notice that every time I drink I spend a LOT of time thinking about the next drink. So I consider myself to have an overall healthy, but consciously monitored, relationship with alcohol.

Also, y'all, non-alcoholic beers have gotten great. Try stocking the fridge with them. They're much less caloric, and I find that they do a great job of quenching the "more drinks" urge without the consequences. So I may have just near-beer one night, or if I have a cocktail and want another, I'll have a near-beer instead.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, I posted above about having a partner who can’t drink, and he has really really enjoying trying all the non-alcoholic beers out there now. There have been a couple of duds but mostly they’re all really good.

[Anonymous User]

Lawyers, especially corporate lawyers, are always portrayed as two things:

1) people who are acceptable to hate
2) alcoholics

Does the stereotype around alcohol ring true for you? For the people you have observed? How often do you drink?

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A few resources for individuals who think or know they may have a problem:
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/ ... tting-help
https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline
https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/resources/
https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alco ... alcoholic/
https://www.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking/

4 lawyers in my family. Lawyer-Parent 1 smokes cigs. as a stress crutch, sibling 2 and I both use marijuana pretty heavily for the same reasons, sibling 3 has alcohol issues (but does not drink anymore because sibling 3 gets the stimulant effect from alcohol and there's alcoholism in my family). So a 100% substance abuse statistic for us.

[Anonymous User]

depends how busy I am. In a busy period I may drink on 1 or 2 days per week. In a slow period when I'm bored, could easily be 3 to 4 days per week.

like anything else, it's not a problem until it is a problem. Gaining weight, feeling groggy, skipping out on little tasks like filing emails / working out / household chores... are all evidence that you need to tone it down.

[Anonymous User]

Get a Whoop strap, Oura ring, 8 Sleep, etc. and you will cut back on drinking.

Even 1 drink totally destroys the quality of your sleep.

It's also a level 1 carcinogen (like cigarettes and asbestos) so there's that.

[Anonymous User]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

[Anonymous User]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

you're talking about physical dependence on alcohol, like someone who gets the shakes and could die from withdrawal. when OP said problem they meant "something bad" or "causes bad effects"

[nixy]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

Lol no, you can absolutely be an alcoholic without keeping booze at your desk and drinking thoughout the day.

[Anonymous User]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

you're talking about physical dependence on alcohol, like someone who gets the shakes and could die from withdrawal. when OP said problem they meant "something bad" or "causes bad effects"

Lots of things cause bad effects. In a perfect world alcohol wouldn't exist, perhaps. All I'm saying is ever since I went to law school I've met a lot of people who worry they're alcoholics because they have 1-2 glasses of wine 3 or 4 weeknights. This is a completely normal thing to do, for better or worse. These people should probably be more concerned about their neurosis than alcoholism.

[nixy]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

you're talking about physical dependence on alcohol, like someone who gets the shakes and could die from withdrawal. when OP said problem they meant "something bad" or "causes bad effects"

Lots of things cause bad effects. In a perfect world alcohol wouldn't exist, perhaps. All I'm saying is ever since I went to law school I've met a lot of people who worry they're alcoholics because they have 1-2 glasses of wine 3 or 4 weeknights. This is a completely normal thing to do, for better or worse. These people should probably be more concerned about their neurosis than alcoholism.

This sounds kind of defensive, and also like you've not really read the rest of the thread.

[Anonymous User]

Not anymore, I don't think. Pre-pandemic, maybe. I had about 20-25 drinks a week and sometimes 10 or so in a night (and told a doctor as much, who didn't think it was a problem, so it continued). Once the pandemic hit I basically quit cold turkey for months. I drink now, but more in the 10/week range.

[Anonymous User]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

This statement is so untrue and so naive that I can only imagine the poster is trolling or joking. If the latter, it is deeply unfunny because it is thinking like this that keeps many people from seeking help who need it.

[almostperfectt]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

This statement is so untrue and so naive that I can only imagine the poster is trolling or joking. If the latter, it is deeply unfunny because it is thinking like this that keeps many people from seeking help who need it.

I'm not that anon but I think everyone here is missing the mark. I know we're not experts in this area but part of the issue is that no one here has established or defined what an alcohol problem even means. Aren't lawyers supposed to define (and subsequently agree with) the terms to streamline communication.

And don't quote me the 4 drinks on any given day bullshit because that's a slow Tuesday morning at any nyc bar

[Anonymous User]

There are also plenty of people who have a bottle at the desk or a bar in office who are not alcoholics and know how to drink moderately.

[Anonymous User]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

This statement is so untrue and so naive that I can only imagine the poster is trolling or joking. If the latter, it is deeply unfunny because it is thinking like this that keeps many people from seeking help who need it.

I'm being flippant - I recognize that lawyers disproportionately have substance abuse problems. My only gripe is with the recent cultural phenomenon (in some cases present in this thread) where an increasing amount of perfectionists diagnose themselves with an increasing amount of ailments. It's that kind of thinking that has allowed, for example, perfectly healthy young adults to get medicated for ADHD and hooked on stimulants. To stick with the current example, I notice that people with the same sort of personality judge themselves incredibly harshly for behaving in ways (i.e., drinking moderately) that the majority of Americans would consider completely normal.

[Anonymous User]

Alcoholics keep booze at their desk and drink throughout the day. Highly educated people these days equate imperfection and bad habits with mental illness.

This statement is so untrue and so naive that I can only imagine the poster is trolling or joking. If the latter, it is deeply unfunny because it is thinking like this that keeps many people from seeking help who need it.

I'm not that anon but I think everyone here is missing the mark. I know we're not experts in this area but part of the issue is that no one here has established or defined what an alcohol problem even means. Aren't lawyers supposed to define (and subsequently agree with) the terms to streamline communication.

And don't quote me the 4 drinks on any given day bullshit because that's a slow Tuesday morning at any nyc bar

I posted earlier in the thread that "drinking problem" = "alcohol caused something bad"and I don't think I was far off the mark. My view is informed by a conversation I had with my medical doctor (psychiatrist) a few years back. He said that clinically, it's about the impact on the individual and their life, and that "alcohol use disorder" (term he used) can rear its head in subtle ways.

Different experts disagree on this issue. My doctor thought it was about (1) negative effects on work and relationships caused by alcohol and (2) thinking about alcohol and "planning" opportunities to drink, planning time to recover from drinking, looking forward to Thursday night because you want to drink, etc. Or it could be spending 90 minutes on the treadmill everyday to accommodate getting hammered without getting fat.

And then there are hardliners who say alcoholism = physical dependence on alcohol, or alternatively alcoholism = having X number of drinks in a period of Y time. My doctor thought the rigid view had become the minority view.

To the credit of the guy who said not all bad habits = mental illness, that's true, and my doc believed that most people who consume alcohol do not have an alcohol use disorder.

[nixy]

I'm being flippant - I recognize that lawyers disproportionately have substance abuse problems. My only gripe is with the recent cultural phenomenon (in some cases present in this thread) where an increasing amount of perfectionists diagnose themselves with an increasing amount of ailments. It's that kind of thinking that has allowed, for example, perfectly healthy young adults to get medicated for ADHD and hooked on stimulants. To stick with the current example, I notice that people with the same sort of personality judge themselves incredibly harshly for behaving in ways (i.e., drinking moderately) that the majority of Americans would consider completely normal.

Do you think that the majority of Americans considering something normal means that it can’t possibly be a problem?

I get your point and I don’t think it’s entirely wrong (for instance there are a lot of untrained people offering up self-diagnoses on TikTok) but think it’s misplaced here (and with ADHD). The flip side to “perfectionists diagnosing themselves with an increasing amount of ailments” is increased awareness and education about various issues and more people being able to access treatment for things they’d just struggle with in the past.

In any case, the question wasn’t “are you an alcoholic” but “do you have a drinking problem.” If someone thinks that their drinking affects their life negatively, then it’s a problem. Some people are fine spending Saturday or Sunday morning (or both) sleeping off a hangover. Some people find that to have a really negative effect on their life. If someone in the latter category wants to stop drinking amounts that lead them to be hungover on Sat and/or Sun morning, and struggle with doing so, it’s fair if they want to call that a problem even if Joe/Joanne Public is fine with spending that much time hungover.

I guess I also wouldn’t characterize all problems with drinking as “mental illness” so the criticism of claiming mental illness seems a little out of left field.

(I’ll end on a really obnoxious note though and point out that the CDC defines moderate drinking as “limiting intake to 2 drinks or less in a day for men or 1 drink or less in a day for women, on days when alcohol is consumed” and also does not recommend that individuals who do not drink alcohol start drinking for any reason. Stats re: drinking patterns are hard to pin down but a lot of recent reports seem to suggest that 40% of Americans don’t drink at all. So I think any given individual’s perspective on what is “moderate” or what “normal” Americans do is going to depend a LOT on context. If you’re spending a lot of time in bars, “normal” drinking probably looks a lot different than if you don’t, that kind of thing.)

[Anonymous User]

"(I’ll end on a really obnoxious note though and point out that the CDC defines moderate drinking as “limiting intake to 2 drinks or less in a day for men or 1 drink or less in a day for women, on days when alcohol is consumed” and also does not recommend that individuals who do not drink alcohol start drinking for any reason. Stats re: drinking patterns are hard to pin down but a lot of recent reports seem to suggest that 40% of Americans don’t drink at all. So I think any given individual’s perspective on what is “moderate” or what “normal” Americans do is going to depend a LOT on context. If you’re spending a lot of time in bars, “normal” drinking probably looks a lot different than if you don’t, that kind of thing.)"

Maybe don't end on such an (admittedly) obnoxious note in this kind of thread.

[nixy]

"(I’ll end on a really obnoxious note though and point out that the CDC defines moderate drinking as “limiting intake to 2 drinks or less in a day for men or 1 drink or less in a day for women, on days when alcohol is consumed” and also does not recommend that individuals who do not drink alcohol start drinking for any reason. Stats re: drinking patterns are hard to pin down but a lot of recent reports seem to suggest that 40% of Americans don’t drink at all. So I think any given individual’s perspective on what is “moderate” or what “normal” Americans do is going to depend a LOT on context. If you’re spending a lot of time in bars, “normal” drinking probably looks a lot different than if you don’t, that kind of thing.)"

Maybe don't end on such an (admittedly) obnoxious note in this kind of thread.

So, to be fairer, I agree with the anon above who posted about their doctor’s take and how alcohol misuse could be much more subtle/flexible than a certain number of drinks in a certain period, or physical dependence. And I do think that problem is up to the person in question to define. If your alcohol use isn’t affecting your work/relationships/health/personal happiness, you do you.

But I was also listening to a podcast earlier this week that referenced the fact that the CDC doesn’t identify a safe level of alcohol use and I was a a little surprised by that and hadn’t heard it put in that way before. And I do think that the US has a LOT of dysfunction around alcohol that gets justified/normalized too easily.

So yeah, I’m going to throw that out there as something for people to think about because I do think it’s hard sometimes to look outside one’s own immediate context/setting. But I don’t mean it as personal judgment and I don’t mean that anyone who drinks more than 2 drinks in a day needs to rush over to AA instantly. It’s just information.

And I’ll also admit that I have a bias against drinking due to issues in people very very close to me, and I’m just some yahoo on the internet, so no one has to listen to anything I say. In any case, it wasn’t meant as a personal dig at anyone in this thread, so I apologize for it coming across that way.

[jc9812]

[ And I do think that the US has a LOT of dysfunction around alcohol that gets justified/normalized too easily.

Can't be overstated imo (and the U.S. isn't alone here, lots of countries have a similar culture around drinking). I think about this a lot in relation to my own relationship to alcohol. In that Adrian Chiles BBC doc someone posted, a doctor says "If alcohol were discovered today, it would be illegal," and that strikes me as correct. Absolutely absurd that weed was demonized for so long in this country (and still is, to a large extent) while alcohol abuse, dependency, binge drinking etc. are effectively socially acceptable.

[Anonymous User]

(2) thinking about alcohol and "planning" opportunities to drink, planning time to recover from drinking, looking forward to Thursday night because you want to drink, etc.

I mean, I definitely have a "problem" if this is the definition. I plan to attend happy hours, etc. and intentionally drink on evenings when I don't have to wake up early the next day (or during the day on days when I'm off). Those both seem like ways to avoid alcohol becoming a problem (the alternative being drinking on impulse, not planned, and consequently at less opportune times).

[Anonymous User]

(2) thinking about alcohol and "planning" opportunities to drink, planning time to recover from drinking, looking forward to Thursday night because you want to drink, etc.

I mean, I definitely have a "problem" if this is the definition. I plan to attend happy hours, etc. and intentionally drink on evenings when I don't have to wake up early the next day (or during the day on days when I'm off). Those both seem like ways to avoid alcohol becoming a problem (the alternative being drinking on impulse, not planned, and consequently at less opportune times).

I’m not the person who posted that definition, but I would think that maybe in your case with the happy hours etc you’re planning for the social aspect. If you’re taking all those steps around drinking for the sake of drinking, that’s very different than doing so around an opportunity to socialize when your social group does so over alcohol. Like, do you drink alone, and if so, do you go through the same process?

When I was younger and drank all the time, my schedule definitely revolved around drinking. But that was solely as a proxy for my social life. I think there’s a key difference there.