When did you start to hate big law? Forum

[Anonymous User]

What podcasts are you all listening to and on what platforms?

[Anonymous User]

I'll give a bit of a different perspective so people know what's down the road.

I very recently made partner.

I don't hate my job, but I don't love it either. I'm basically just numb to it. I don't need this amount of money for myself, but I'm not at the point that I can just retire, either, mainly because I have a kid and I want to give them a better life than I had growing up (I grew up poor). I don't have any particular exit options (other than, maybe, to something more of a "lifestyle" firm, but my skillset doesn't translate all that well and I'm skeptical of the existence of such firms anyway, or to government, but that's too much of a paycut for me to stomach because it's literally like one year of my current work is years and years of a government salary, and I wouldn't want to stay long enough in government to vest the pension). Compared to the kind of work I grew up being surrounded by, this job is comparatively easy other than the fact that you can never just be home and unplug, which is the biggest downside--there's really no such thing as a true vacation, etc. So, it's all worth it to provide for my kid. But it definitely does not get dramatically different/better when you are more senior, and a lot of elements become worse, so if you hate biglaw life as a younger attorney, don't expect it to improve all that much as you get senior (other than the money of course).

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment "wanting to provide a better life for the kids," I never understand these posts. I grew up poor as well. Literally living paycheck to paycheck with a single parent and having debt collectors at the door every week. I worked part time jobs and gave the money to my parent to help make ends meet.

That being said, if you're a partner, you've been at this for over 10 years. You're probably making at least 750k a year as a partner. You make in one year more than my parents would make in 20 years. And that's disregard what I assume has to be at least a cool million in investments. You can retire. You can definitely afford to get an easy job for 60k a year.

[Anonymous User]

What podcasts are you all listening to and on what platforms?

I'm a big fan of Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. Excellent way to keep up with the world of startups/tech/business etc. Apple Podcasts.

[Anonymous User]

I've always hated it, and hence never did it.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you in this thread who are married, has it caused problems in your marriage at all? My wife has a strong work ethic too and we both agreed if at the least we can have dinner together at night and spend time together on weekend nights it shouldn’t be too bad. Do you find that you don’t even have time for that? How much time do you actually get to spend with your spouse every week?

[Anonymous User]

For those of you in this thread who are married, has it caused problems in your marriage at all? My wife has a strong work ethic too and we both agreed if at the least we can have dinner together at night and spend time together on weekend nights it shouldn’t be too bad. Do you find that you don’t even have time for that? How much time do you actually get to spend with your spouse every week?

WFH is a huge game changer here, we can have lunch together on days I'm at home. The main strain I'm finding is that my schedule makes it really hard for me to help around the house. We both agreed in advance that the money is worth the schedule but it's one thing to agree on paper and another to actually experience it. We can afford cleaning help now, but lately it's been really hard to find good help (I know, I know, first world problems and all, but it remains a fact that it's a problem).

[Anonymous User]

For those of you in this thread who are married, has it caused problems in your marriage at all? My wife has a strong work ethic too and we both agreed if at the least we can have dinner together at night and spend time together on weekend nights it shouldn’t be too bad. Do you find that you don’t even have time for that? How much time do you actually get to spend with your spouse every week?

Married wasn't too bad. Adding a kid into the mix is what has made it really difficult.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you in this thread who are married, has it caused problems in your marriage at all? My wife has a strong work ethic too and we both agreed if at the least we can have dinner together at night and spend time together on weekend nights it shouldn’t be too bad. Do you find that you don’t even have time for that? How much time do you actually get to spend with your spouse every week?

Married wasn't too bad. Adding a kid into the mix is what has made it really difficult.

Yeah, marriage isn't really the problem. You should be able to do dinner most nights and spend more than just weekend nights together. But, if you have a kid, someone needs to be taking care of that kid until like 8:00 A.M., from 5:00 until bedtime, and all day on the weekends. Also consider if you are comfortable just having other people raise your kids all the time.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you in this thread who are married, has it caused problems in your marriage at all? My wife has a strong work ethic too and we both agreed if at the least we can have dinner together at night and spend time together on weekend nights it shouldn’t be too bad. Do you find that you don’t even have time for that? How much time do you actually get to spend with your spouse every week?

WFH is a huge game changer here, we can have lunch together on days I'm at home. The main strain I'm finding is that my schedule makes it really hard for me to help around the house. We both agreed in advance that the money is worth the schedule but it's one thing to agree on paper and another to actually experience it. We can afford cleaning help now, but lately it's been really hard to find good help (I know, I know, first world problems and all, but it remains a fact that it's a problem).

I absolutely hear you. I have a business going on, on the side, during school and my wife still works a lot and we both just don’t have the motivation to spend an hour making a decent dinner. Cleaning takes up a lot of time too. We have agreed on getting help as soon as possible because I think it will make an affect on the quality of our life. First world problems, yes, but I would rather spend an hour cuddling than cleaning if I can afford it, you know?

[Anonymous User]

For those of you in this thread who are married, has it caused problems in your marriage at all? My wife has a strong work ethic too and we both agreed if at the least we can have dinner together at night and spend time together on weekend nights it shouldn’t be too bad. Do you find that you don’t even have time for that? How much time do you actually get to spend with your spouse every week?

Married wasn't too bad. Adding a kid into the mix is what has made it really difficult.

Yeah, marriage isn't really the problem. You should be able to do dinner most nights and spend more than just weekend nights together. But, if you have a kid, someone needs to be taking care of that kid until like 8:00 A.M., from 5:00 until bedtime, and all day on the weekends. Also consider if you are comfortable just having other people raise your kids all the time.

That makes me so happy to hear. Luckily we are lesbians, don’t want children, and don’t have to worry about any happy accidents lol

[Anonymous User]

For those of you in this thread who are married, has it caused problems in your marriage at all? My wife has a strong work ethic too and we both agreed if at the least we can have dinner together at night and spend time together on weekend nights it shouldn’t be too bad. Do you find that you don’t even have time for that? How much time do you actually get to spend with your spouse every week?

As a married person for most of big law, I think there are two sides to this coin. On the one hand, from what I've heard and what I can imagine it is often hard to date with a big law job--if I have to miss dinner or a weekend plan my wife isn't going to divorce me, but that could be a real impediment to a new relationship where you don't yet have that level of trust and commitment. On the other hand, being married comes with its own additional obligations (e.g. spending time with the in laws), so that plus big law demands and at least I really feel like I have little to no time left over for myself and my hobbies. If I do have time away from work, then I need to spend 100% it with my spouse to ensure that we have a semblance of a relationship.

[notinbiglaw]

About two weeks into my first summer when I was redlining a discovery request at 2am.

[fmrez]

About two weeks into my first summer when I was redlining a discovery request at 2am.

Was that by choice? I've seen summers get worked pretty hard, but even at the toughest shops it is a big no no to have summers working late nights or weekends.

[notinbiglaw]

Depends on what you mean by choice. Was there physically enough time during the day to get it done? Yes. Otherwise, no, I couldn't get it done during the day. The very thought of the task lowers my brain wave frequency.

[Anonymous User]

Outside of the pay, is the job otherwise really that intolerable?

I'm very green. Have a vision in my head that I'll graduate from law school and as I start big law, yes sure the hours will suck. However I envision myself in an office in the best city in the world. Working on high profile matters. Listening to podcasts, doing work, eating food. Not having to worry about money for the first time in my life. I think to myself it can't be that bad but TLS seems to disagree at every turn.

So I'm genuinely interested: when did big law start to suck for you?

I realized I did and would hate big law during my 2L Summer when a third-year and a first-year litigation associate dragged me and 2 others into an office to tell us that we didn't deserve jobs and would tell the partner as much because we left a parenthesis open, in a rough draft. When we then started crying and the associate(s) (1st and 3d) realized how badly they messed up, they tried to individually have us for a lunch & then tried to recover by telling me they were so happy to have three women and two "women of color" on their team and "just wanted us to be the best associates we could be" which is why they reduced two of us to tears in their office. At that moment, I said, "Oh, I thought ABC associate was white." Then they realized that they had incorrectly labeled me as a woman of color and said "aren't you Latina, you speak Spanish?" I told them: "I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe. Spanish is a language spoken by literally millions of white people as well as Latinos." The shock on the face before me was so strong that I knew I wouldn't last very long at this firm. Left during my first year.

[Dahl]

I realized I did and would hate big law during my 2L Summer when a third-year and a first-year litigation associate dragged me and 2 others into an office to tell us that we didn't deserve jobs and would tell the partner as much because we left a parenthesis open, in a rough draft. When we then started crying and the associate(s) (1st and 3d) realized how badly they messed up, they tried to individually have us for a lunch & then tried to recover by telling me they were so happy to have three women and two "women of color" on their team and "just wanted us to be the best associates we could be" which is why they reduced two of us to tears in their office. At that moment, I said, "Oh, I thought ABC associate was white." Then they realized that they had incorrectly labeled me as a woman of color and said "aren't you Latina, you speak Spanish?" I told them: "I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe. Spanish is a language spoken by literally millions of white people as well as Latinos." The shock on the face before me was so strong that I knew I wouldn't last very long at this firm. Left during my first year.

I’m intrigued but confused by this story. If they thought you all sucked so much and actually said “You don’t deserve a job” why would they care if you were upset about that and want to placate you? And why would you saying you thought an associate at the firm was white have anything to do with them mislabeling you as a Latina?

[Anonymous User]

"I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe.["]

many firms would gladly put you in the Latino/a/@/x section of the pitch deck

[Anonymous User]

I’m intrigued but confused by this story. If they thought you all sucked so much and actually said “You don’t deserve a job” why would they care if you were upset about that and want to placate you? And why would you saying you thought an associate at the firm was white have anything to do with them mislabeling you as a Latina?

There were three summers, one BIPOC and two white (including OP and ABC).

Associates say about the summers, “we’re so glad to have 2 women of color on the team”

OP says, “oh, I thought ABC was white,” making clear she doesn’t herself identify as the 2nd woman of color.

[Anonymous User]

Outside of the pay, is the job otherwise really that intolerable?

I'm very green. Have a vision in my head that I'll graduate from law school and as I start big law, yes sure the hours will suck. However I envision myself in an office in the best city in the world. Working on high profile matters. Listening to podcasts, doing work, eating food. Not having to worry about money for the first time in my life. I think to myself it can't be that bad but TLS seems to disagree at every turn.

So I'm genuinely interested: when did big law start to suck for you?

I realized I did and would hate big law during my 2L Summer when a third-year and a first-year litigation associate dragged me and 2 others into an office to tell us that we didn't deserve jobs and would tell the partner as much because we left a parenthesis open, in a rough draft. When we then started crying and the associate(s) (1st and 3d) realized how badly they messed up, they tried to individually have us for a lunch & then tried to recover by telling me they were so happy to have three women and two "women of color" on their team and "just wanted us to be the best associates we could be" which is why they reduced two of us to tears in their office. At that moment, I said, "Oh, I thought ABC associate was white." Then they realized that they had incorrectly labeled me as a woman of color and said "aren't you Latina, you speak Spanish?" I told them: "I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe. Spanish is a language spoken by literally millions of white people as well as Latinos." The shock on the face before me was so strong that I knew I wouldn't last very long at this firm. Left during my first year.

Firm that treats summers that poorly deserves to be outed.

[Dahl]

I’m intrigued but confused by this story. If they thought you all sucked so much and actually said “You don’t deserve a job” why would they care if you were upset about that and want to placate you? And why would you saying you thought an associate at the firm was white have anything to do with them mislabeling you as a Latina?

There were three summers, one BIPOC and two white (including OP and ABC).

Associates say about the summers, “we’re so glad to have 2 women of color on the team”

OP says, “oh, I thought ABC was white,” making clear she doesn’t herself identify as the 2nd woman of color.

Ah thank you for explaining.

Nothing at law firms would surprise me, but if they’re willing to show their true faces to summers that’s a very bad sign.

[Anonymous User]

I realized I did and would hate big law during my 2L Summer when a third-year and a first-year litigation associate dragged me and 2 others into an office to tell us that we didn't deserve jobs and would tell the partner as much because we left a parenthesis open, in a rough draft. When we then started crying and the associate(s) (1st and 3d) realized how badly they messed up, they tried to individually have us for a lunch & then tried to recover by telling me they were so happy to have three women and two "women of color" on their team and "just wanted us to be the best associates we could be" which is why they reduced two of us to tears in their office. At that moment, I said, "Oh, I thought ABC associate was white." Then they realized that they had incorrectly labeled me as a woman of color and said "aren't you Latina, you speak Spanish?" I told them: "I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe. Spanish is a language spoken by literally millions of white people as well as Latinos." The shock on the face before me was so strong that I knew I wouldn't last very long at this firm. Left during my first year.

I’m intrigued but confused by this story. If they thought you all sucked so much and actually said “You don’t deserve a job” why would they care if you were upset about that and want to placate you? And why would you saying you thought an associate at the firm was white have anything to do with them mislabeling you as a Latina?

Sorry, it's a bit confusing to tell the story -- Just want to confirm what someone already wrote above. As to your last question (I am OP from above) I referenced associate ABC because I genuinely did not understand that out of the three of us, they thought I was the second woman of color. There was geniunely a woman of color on the team, but the other two of us were white. When they said that they were excited to have "two women of color" on their team and "three women summers," I was shocked enough to say: "Oh, I thought ABC was white" meaning, I thought she was white (in addition to me).

I would like to out the firm but the other two women still work there and I would be directly outing them as well. I'll just say the firm is not well-liked on this forum & a frequent topic of (negative) discussion for bad quality of life, toxic culture, and sweatshop-like conditions...despite being in the $$$$$$$$$$.

[malibustacy]

When I was paid below market salary at a "top" firm.

[Saami]

When we then started crying and the associate(s) (1st and 3d) realized how badly they messed up, they tried to individually have us for a lunch & then tried to recover by telling me they were so happy to have three women and two "women of color" on their team and "just wanted us to be the best associates we could be" which is why they reduced two of us to tears in their office. At that moment, I said, "Oh, I thought ABC associate was white." Then they realized that they had incorrectly labeled me as a woman of color and said "aren't you Latina, you speak Spanish?" I told them: "I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe. Spanish is a language spoken by literally millions of white people as well as Latinos." The shock on the face before me was so strong that I knew I wouldn't last very long at this firm. Left during my first year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGIgnscRz6Q

[Anonymous User]

When we then started crying and the associate(s) (1st and 3d) realized how badly they messed up, they tried to individually have us for a lunch & then tried to recover by telling me they were so happy to have three women and two "women of color" on their team and "just wanted us to be the best associates we could be" which is why they reduced two of us to tears in their office. At that moment, I said, "Oh, I thought ABC associate was white." Then they realized that they had incorrectly labeled me as a woman of color and said "aren't you Latina, you speak Spanish?" I told them: "I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe. Spanish is a language spoken by literally millions of white people as well as Latinos." The shock on the face before me was so strong that I knew I wouldn't last very long at this firm. Left during my first year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGIgnscRz6Q

OP from the miserable experience. LMAO Yes. this is 100% what it was like only there was crying and name-calling. I remember 3d year said "what the fuck do you guys think this is?" while discussing the open parens. FWIW all my friends in litigation at this firm hate their lives and will be clerking imminently or leaving otherwise. (lol) I am still a jr so this occurred between 2018-2020.

[Anonymous User]

When we then started crying and the associate(s) (1st and 3d) realized how badly they messed up, they tried to individually have us for a lunch & then tried to recover by telling me they were so happy to have three women and two "women of color" on their team and "just wanted us to be the best associates we could be" which is why they reduced two of us to tears in their office. At that moment, I said, "Oh, I thought ABC associate was white." Then they realized that they had incorrectly labeled me as a woman of color and said "aren't you Latina, you speak Spanish?" I told them: "I'm Italian, my family is from Boston. I speak Spanish because I studied abroad in Europe. Spanish is a language spoken by literally millions of white people as well as Latinos." The shock on the face before me was so strong that I knew I wouldn't last very long at this firm. Left during my first year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGIgnscRz6Q

OP from the miserable experience. LMAO Yes. this is 100% what it was like only there was crying and name-calling. I remember 3d year said "what the fuck do you guys think this is?" while discussing the open parens. FWIW all my friends in litigation at this firm hate their lives and will be clerking imminently or leaving otherwise. (lol) I am still a jr so this occurred between 2018-2020.

[Edited because everyone is a whiny wimp]

I don't know who was involved, but I remember a story about three women summers crying at once in one office.