Attorneys of Kirkland. Talk to incoming 2L SAs about your experience at the firm. Forum

[Anonymous User]

As a current junior at K&E Houston, I see a lot of total nonsense in this thread from people who don’t even work here lol (and admit it openly). I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t base your career decisions on the opinions of people who interviewed but never summered, or someone who interviewed with a totally different Houston firm once and then didn’t even practice in Texas. Or the rumors that someone heard from a friend of a friend.

It’s just silly, and is so discordant with my experience as an actual person who actually works in that office.

If you don’t trust current associates to give you an honest opinion of the place (though we would), then reach out to former associates who lateraled somewhere else or went in-house. Just don’t listen to people who have never even stepped foot in the office.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW I interviewed with Kirkland's trademark lit group a while back and heard some bad stories from a current associate (who could have just been having a bad day i guess). Associates often bill 250-300 hour weeks and are still assigned more work and saying "no" or asking for lighter workload is frowned upon or overruled. Associates not really allowed to work outside the practice group and are miserable, strung out, and actively trying to leave. SPs are indifferent to associate wellbeing and are sweet at first but apparently extremely difficult to work with. Elevation to SP from NSP is even more impossible than it is at K&E generally b/c group is dominated by one partner who has a stranglehold over all the business and wants to keep it that way. This is all hearsay but wanted to pass it on and maybe save a life.

[nealric]

FWIW I interviewed with Kirkland's trademark lit group a while back and heard some bad stories from a current associate (who could have just been having a bad day i guess). Associates often bill 250-300 hour weeks and are still assigned more work and saying "no" or asking for lighter workload is frowned upon or overruled. Associates not really allowed to work outside the practice group and are miserable, strung out, and actively trying to leave. SPs are indifferent to associate wellbeing and are sweet at first but apparently extremely difficult to work with. Elevation to SP from NSP is even more impossible than it is at K&E generally b/c group is dominated by one partner who has a stranglehold over all the business and wants to keep it that way. This is all hearsay but wanted to pass it on and maybe save a life.

Considering there are only 168 hours in a week, that really is brutal

[Anonymous User]

As a current junior at K&E Houston, I see a lot of total nonsense in this thread from people who don’t even work here lol (and admit it openly). I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t base your career decisions on the opinions of people who interviewed but never summered, or someone who interviewed with a totally different Houston firm once and then didn’t even practice in Texas. Or the rumors that someone heard from a friend of a friend.

It’s just silly, and is so discordant with my experience as an actual person who actually works in that office.

If you don’t trust current associates to give you an honest opinion of the place (though we would), then reach out to former associates who lateraled somewhere else or went in-house. Just don’t listen to people who have never even stepped foot in the office.

Give me a break. Look at this ridiculous missive from the managing partner of Kirkland's Houston office.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/05/partner ... ne-at-all/

Real heart warming quotes here like "the math is not going to work out well for you at the end of the year" and "that doesn't mean you have an annuity here." At any normal white shoe firm sending a disgraceful email like that would mean the end of your career. At Kirkland...it means a promotion.

So sure, if you want to take an already awful job and make it 2x worse by going to Kirkland and working with the most toxic partners imaginable (and their virtual slave labor force of NSPs), go ahead, but at least do it with eyes wide open and no Kool Aid.

[Joachim2017]

As a current junior at K&E Houston, I see a lot of total nonsense in this thread from people who don’t even work here lol (and admit it openly). I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t base your career decisions on the opinions of people who interviewed but never summered, or someone who interviewed with a totally different Houston firm once and then didn’t even practice in Texas. Or the rumors that someone heard from a friend of a friend.

It’s just silly, and is so discordant with my experience as an actual person who actually works in that office.

If you don’t trust current associates to give you an honest opinion of the place (though we would), then reach out to former associates who lateraled somewhere else or went in-house. Just don’t listen to people who have never even stepped foot in the office.

Give me a break. Look at this ridiculous missive from the managing partner of Kirkland's Houston office.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/05/partner ... ne-at-all/

Real heart warming quotes here like "the math is not going to work out well for you at the end of the year" and "that doesn't mean you have an annuity here." At any normal white shoe firm sending a disgraceful email like that would mean the end of your career. At Kirkland...it means a promotion.

So sure, if you want to take an already awful job and make it 2x worse by going to Kirkland and working with the most toxic partners imaginable (and their virtual slave labor force of NSPs), go ahead, but at least do it with eyes wide open and no Kool Aid.

The funny thing is I commented on how terrible that Andy Calder email is in another thread, and got a bunch of K&E associates responding "what's wrong with that?" or "that was perfectly reasonable" and seeing no problem with it -- in the middle of a global pandemic well before we had it under control. Talk about stockholm syndrome...

[Anonymous User]

As a current junior at K&E Houston, I see a lot of total nonsense in this thread from people who don’t even work here lol (and admit it openly). I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t base your career decisions on the opinions of people who interviewed but never summered, or someone who interviewed with a totally different Houston firm once and then didn’t even practice in Texas. Or the rumors that someone heard from a friend of a friend.

It’s just silly, and is so discordant with my experience as an actual person who actually works in that office.

If you don’t trust current associates to give you an honest opinion of the place (though we would), then reach out to former associates who lateraled somewhere else or went in-house. Just don’t listen to people who have never even stepped foot in the office.

Give me a break. Look at this ridiculous missive from the managing partner of Kirkland's Houston office.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/05/partner ... ne-at-all/

Real heart warming quotes here like "the math is not going to work out well for you at the end of the year" and "that doesn't mean you have an annuity here." At any normal white shoe firm sending a disgraceful email like that would mean the end of your career. At Kirkland...it means a promotion.

So sure, if you want to take an already awful job and make it 2x worse by going to Kirkland and working with the most toxic partners imaginable (and their virtual slave labor force of NSPs), go ahead, but at least do it with eyes wide open and no Kool Aid.

K&E Houston anon here. I agree that Andy’s email was probably tone deaf for the time. But you’re kidding yourself if you think that the partners in peer firms aren’t thinking in the exact same terms (lmao at the thought that such an email would “end their career”). The environment at K&E is pretty much the same as any other V10, good or bad, with only minor differences (like the free market assignments).

As for working with “the most toxic partners imaginable” and other critiques, I’ll just go ahead and make what I think should be an obvious point: if you’re wondering what it’s really like to work in a certain office, it’s probably better to listen to people that actually work in that office (or used to), not people who’ve never stepped foot in it. Crazy concept, I know.

[Joachim2017]

I don't think it was just tone-deaf, as though it was simply a PR or messaging slip. Even if partners at other top firms were thinking it, to send an email communicating it in such stark terms is an entirely different matter. If you like working for him, and for people like him, good for you and more power to you. But people looking in from the outside can reasonably come to very different conclusions regarding what it would be like to work for someone like that -- the fact that it, best-case scenario, "tone deaf" lets us know how he actually thinks and what he values in a time like that, beyond what he has his PR team and minion associates communicate externally.

[Anonymous User]

As a current junior at K&E Houston, I see a lot of total nonsense in this thread from people who don’t even work here lol (and admit it openly). I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t base your career decisions on the opinions of people who interviewed but never summered, or someone who interviewed with a totally different Houston firm once and then didn’t even practice in Texas. Or the rumors that someone heard from a friend of a friend.

It’s just silly, and is so discordant with my experience as an actual person who actually works in that office.

If you don’t trust current associates to give you an honest opinion of the place (though we would), then reach out to former associates who lateraled somewhere else or went in-house. Just don’t listen to people who have never even stepped foot in the office.

Give me a break. Look at this ridiculous missive from the managing partner of Kirkland's Houston office.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/05/partner ... ne-at-all/

Real heart warming quotes here like "the math is not going to work out well for you at the end of the year" and "that doesn't mean you have an annuity here." At any normal white shoe firm sending a disgraceful email like that would mean the end of your career. At Kirkland...it means a promotion.

So sure, if you want to take an already awful job and make it 2x worse by going to Kirkland and working with the most toxic partners imaginable (and their virtual slave labor force of NSPs), go ahead, but at least do it with eyes wide open and no Kool Aid.

The funny thing is I commented on how terrible that Andy Calder email is in another thread, and got a bunch of K&E associates responding "what's wrong with that?" or "that was perfectly reasonable" and seeing no problem with it -- in the middle of a global pandemic well before we had it under control. Talk about stockholm syndrome...

agreed; was a midyear to senior associate at the Houston office way back when it was a smaller office (before they started hiring 30+ summers, which is now like 50+). since then, been at two other biglaw shops since and I can safely say that Kirkland is an absolutely dreadful experience, even relatively speaking. i even remember one guy had been told to work on his wedding day and another had been told to work one day after their family member had passed away. it's incredibly cruel and they don't have any sense of respecting personal boundaries. personally, i finally quit after being negged during a review by one notorious houston partner because i refused to work while on vacation (despite letting them know 3 months in advance): i was told i needed to show more 'commitment' if i wanted to make partner, even though i'd already billed over 2300 by that point. anyways, that was that.

the few remaining colleagues who still work there tell me things have somehow gotten worse, and not better, even with the inclusion of a staffing coordinator. first, kirkland no longer pays 'earth-shattering' market bonuses anymore. Closest friend there worked 2500+ hours last year and received 1.1x (lol) market bonus. btw, the terrible houston partners are now scattered in the Dallas & Austin offices, so it doesn't really matter which office you go to either. high chance you'll be dealing with the same crop of bad partners (assuming you are a midyear or senior).

if you're contemplating K&E houston for the $$, i'd suggest looking elsewhere (unless you get a huge signing bonus, in which case just bounce after a year) because their market bonuses are subpar now. some associates are decent, but the partners are the worst crop i've worked with.

[Anonymous User]

Litigator in the DC office. People bill a lot. I generally like my colleagues and partners. Some partners will really try to squeeze and manipulate people onto their cases, but the free market - I mean "open assignment" - system works in your favor if you are willing to stick to your guns. The issues arise with people who are not good at doing this. Those people would frankly be better suited for a different firm with a central assignment coordinator. Their lives can get miserable for a while because most partners will not look twice at how busy a given associate is, expecting them to basically shoulder the load of managing their own docket.

The best thing for sanity is to get on a couple cases with the same partner, do good work, and let them protect you when other partners come sniffing around. (There are enough good partners to do this with, and a big part of your summer experience should be trying to identify them for when you start for real. Associate mentors can really help you with this.) The best thing for partnership prospects is to do that with a couple rainmakers and simply ignore all non-rainmaking partners when they sniff around. I have some colleagues who are doing this, and they work a lot, but they want to give it a chance.

DC is a really nice office building (opened in 2019 as a new build) although few people have been inside of it for the last couple years. Perks are pretty good - free dinners and Ubers when you work late, firm is not stingy about summer lunches etc. Benefits are pretty bad - health care is expensive. I think first years do not all get their own offices anymore, but by year 2 you will have a nice, private, wall-to-ceiling window (some offices for juniors are internal; I think everyone is out of them by year 3), automated standing desk, office to yourself.

In terms of work substance, it varies WILDLY. Some partners are good (relative to the biglaw baseline) about giving associates some real experience. Some are horrible at it. It also varies from client to client, but certain partners are known to really advocate for associates to get chances and others don't do that.

Based on my anecdotal experience here as compared to law school friends at other firms, I think KE DC litigators stick around a bit longer than average before lateraling or exiting biglaw. The firm gives a very long runway to associates that get pushed out, and in the last couple of years it's been rarer to see people pushed out because we have been busy (and hiring).

It's all about who you work for; there are some partners that are miserable to work for and others that are probably about as good as biglaw gets. People are mostly pleasant and personable, which does not fit the KE stereotype but makes the long nights or the weeks at trial a bit more bearable.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. We both have it. Believe it or not there are firms out there--so I've been told--where partners actually care about their associates and are invested in training and mentoring and don't view us simply as fungible cogs for their next Porsche payment. Meaning they're neither passive aggressive psychopaths nor explicit psychopaths. Let's do better.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. We both have it. Believe it or not there are firms out there--so I've been told--where partners actually care about their associates and are invested in training and mentoring and don't view us simply as fungible cogs for their next Porsche payment. Meaning they're neither passive aggressive psychopaths nor explicit psychopaths. Let's do better.

Oh, I agree with your sentiment. I just tend to see people avoid K&E only to go to a marginally less bad peer because it’s a V10/15/20. There’s no agreement on what firms are good for treating associates with dignity, so I think you have to be very intentional and seek out associates who’ve left to get the real scoop.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. We both have it. Believe it or not there are firms out there--so I've been told--where partners actually care about their associates and are invested in training and mentoring and don't view us simply as fungible cogs for their next Porsche payment. Meaning they're neither passive aggressive psychopaths nor explicit psychopaths. Let's do better.

Oh, I agree with your sentiment. I just tend to see people avoid K&E only to go to a marginally less bad peer because it’s a V10/15/20. There’s no agreement on what firms are good for treating associates with dignity, so I think you have to be very intentional and seek out associates who’ve left to get the real scoop.

K&E Houston anon. I agree, and this is part of the point I was trying to make above. I don’t really care about some fake PR/HR wrapping paper, I care about how the firm actually behaves. The fact that K&E is more open about being “business-like” and calculating in its decisions does not mean that its actions are different than its peers or that its culture is any worse. If anything, I’d argue that the honesty is refreshing.

Would I rather be at a firm where the partners were truly sweet and kind and selfless and frequently sacrificed their own interests to benefit the associates (beyond what is required to increase productivity and decrease turnover)? Where they made decisions altruistically rather than as a business calculation? Sure. But that sort of firm doesn’t seem to actually exist, at least not anywhere among K&E’s peers.

If that’s going to be my actual, real life situation at every firm, I’d prefer not to have the partners lie and bullshit about it, then throw me under the bus when it’s to their advantage. Look at all the firms that talk a big game and then do layoffs or cut salaries the moment their profits are threatened in a downturn.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. We both have it. Believe it or not there are firms out there--so I've been told--where partners actually care about their associates and are invested in training and mentoring and don't view us simply as fungible cogs for their next Porsche payment. Meaning they're neither passive aggressive psychopaths nor explicit psychopaths. Let's do better.

Oh, I agree with your sentiment. I just tend to see people avoid K&E only to go to a marginally less bad peer because it’s a V10/15/20. There’s no agreement on what firms are good for treating associates with dignity, so I think you have to be very intentional and seek out associates who’ve left to get the real scoop.

K&E Houston anon. I agree, and this is part of the point I was trying to make above. I don’t really care about some fake PR/HR wrapping paper, I care about how the firm actually behaves. The fact that K&E is more open about being “business-like” and calculating in its decisions does not mean that its actions are different than its peers or that its culture is any worse. If anything, I’d argue that the honesty is refreshing.

Would I rather be at a firm where the partners were truly sweet and kind and selfless and frequently sacrificed their own interests to benefit the associates (beyond what is required to increase productivity and decrease turnover)? Where they made decisions altruistically rather than as a business calculation? Sure. But that sort of firm doesn’t seem to actually exist, at least not anywhere among K&E’s peers.

If that’s going to be my actual, real life situation at every firm, I’d prefer not to have the partners lie and bullshit about it, then throw me under the bus when it’s to their advantage. Look at all the firms that talk a big game and then do layoffs or cut salaries the moment their profits are threatened in a downturn.

The issue is it takes a lot more insanity to write and mass blast the e-mail that's being discussed. This isn't just a "well, at least he's more open about it." Plenty of people have cutting, blunt internal thoughts when they're trying to manage the business of the firm. But you should *want* to be at a place where the partners at least feel compelled to maintain a degree of normalcy and recognize it's not okay to publicly lambast an entire office for getting off the "gravy train." And where the firm doesn't hire people who behave that way. Every single goal in that e-mail could have been met, better met in fact, with a few strategic phone calls in a way that didn't make an entire office feel like they were going to lose their jobs.

It's not a small degree of difference, it's a sign that the culture of Kirkland is basically no holds barred at this point in a way that other firms are not in terms of who they're willing to hire and let run the ship. And let's be honest, we all know this, don't we? What sort of culture do we have where we buy out entire groups when we want to, pay outrageous sums to pull partners from other firms, push out crazy lateral hiring bonuses when barely taking care of home-grown associates?

[Anonymous User]

Not at KE but when I was in LS, I remember that every other firm said thigs like "we're not like other firms we're the good guys" and you saw right through it but at least they were pretending. KE ppl didn't, they said things like "we do the best work" and "I live walking distance to the office it's great". This thread tracks with that impression.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have experience with the NY office in particular?

[Anonymous User]

Either the K&E Houston fanboy in this thread isn't talking in good faith, or s/he just does not get it. NO ONE is saying you have to be either an asshole in the way Calder apparently is, or else "truly sweet and kind and selfless and frequently sacrificed their own interests". That's a false binary. We're not saying other elite firms are the latter, or that that should be expected. There's a spectrum here. Calder's email shows he's on an extreme in this spectrum, and you are ok with it because you think it's an either/or dystopia when if you don't bill 250+ in a pandemic, you think your firm is a "gravy train." Please.

[Anonymous User]

It’s so pointless to talk about K&E.

Those who work there are discredited as having Stockholm Syndrome when they explain their experience or discuss some of the merits of the place (which admittedly for most people are outweighed by the cons).

Those who don’t work there seem to love inflating it’s reputation for being the most soulless, cog-in-the-machine firm and cite anecdotes as if they’re more valid than the anecdotes of current K&E attorneys. If you’d never be caught dead in a K&E Patagonia, that’s great but you don’t have to shout it in every thread. There are people who want to cut through the BS and understand whether the trade offs could be worth it for them. For corporate folks, I’d definitely put up a caution sign but for certain regulatory and litigation folks, K&E can be an excellent place to cut your teeth.

[Anonymous User]

It’s so pointless to talk about K&E.

Those who work there are discredited as having Stockholm Syndrome when they explain their experience or discuss some of the merits of the place (which admittedly for most people are outweighed by the cons).

Those who don’t work there seem to love inflating it’s reputation for being the most soulless, cog-in-the-machine firm and cite anecdotes as if they’re more valid than the anecdotes of current K&E attorneys. If you’d never be caught dead in a K&E Patagonia, that’s great but you don’t have to shout it in every thread. There are people who want to cut through the BS and understand whether the trade offs could be worth it for them. For corporate folks, I’d definitely put up a caution sign but for certain regulatory and litigation folks, K&E can be an excellent place to cut your teeth.

Good example of this is a pretty thorough post above from earlier today about the DC office with zero engagement as people just go back and forth about the Calder email.

[Anonymous User]

Not at KE but when I was in LS, I remember that every other firm said thigs like "we're not like other firms we're the good guys" and you saw right through it but at least they were pretending. KE ppl didn't, they said things like "we do the best work" and "I live walking distance to the office it's great". This thread tracks with that impression.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. We both have it. Believe it or not there are firms out there--so I've been told--where partners actually care about their associates and are invested in training and mentoring and don't view us simply as fungible cogs for their next Porsche payment. Meaning they're neither passive aggressive psychopaths nor explicit psychopaths. Let's do better.

Oh, I agree with your sentiment. I just tend to see people avoid K&E only to go to a marginally less bad peer because it’s a V10/15/20. There’s no agreement on what firms are good for treating associates with dignity, so I think you have to be very intentional and seek out associates who’ve left to get the real scoop.

K&E Houston anon. I agree, and this is part of the point I was trying to make above. I don’t really care about some fake PR/HR wrapping paper, I care about how the firm actually behaves. The fact that K&E is more open about being “business-like” and calculating in its decisions does not mean that its actions are different than its peers or that its culture is any worse. If anything, I’d argue that the honesty is refreshing.

Would I rather be at a firm where the partners were truly sweet and kind and selfless and frequently sacrificed their own interests to benefit the associates (beyond what is required to increase productivity and decrease turnover)? Where they made decisions altruistically rather than as a business calculation? Sure. But that sort of firm doesn’t seem to actually exist, at least not anywhere among K&E’s peers.

If that’s going to be my actual, real life situation at every firm, I’d prefer not to have the partners lie and bullshit about it, then throw me under the bus when it’s to their advantage. Look at all the firms that talk a big game and then do layoffs or cut salaries the moment their profits are threatened in a downturn.

This really misses the point that there is a fundamental difference between a firm like DPW and between KW. Does DPW have many utterly miserable, overweight, thrice divorced partners happy to turn associates into ashen versions of themselves sure? But no matter how miserable these partners might be, they would still have the class not to think of their associates as chattel to be lit on fire and disposed of. I don't think a single DPW partner would ever send an email like the one Calder did, and I fully expect that a DPW partner doing so would be shown the door. There is class, and then there is KE, the closest thing to modern day dungeon.

It's not that other law firms are warm, fuzzy and happy places, its that KE has totally done away with the idea that there is any partnership model undergirding the business, or that associates are valued professionals entitled to be treated with a modicum of respect. KE associates are now treated like the equivalent of $5/hour call center workers outsourced to Costa Rica.

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. We both have it. Believe it or not there are firms out there--so I've been told--where partners actually care about their associates and are invested in training and mentoring and don't view us simply as fungible cogs for their next Porsche payment. Meaning they're neither passive aggressive psychopaths nor explicit psychopaths. Let's do better.

Oh, I agree with your sentiment. I just tend to see people avoid K&E only to go to a marginally less bad peer because it’s a V10/15/20. There’s no agreement on what firms are good for treating associates with dignity, so I think you have to be very intentional and seek out associates who’ve left to get the real scoop.

K&E Houston anon. I agree, and this is part of the point I was trying to make above. I don’t really care about some fake PR/HR wrapping paper, I care about how the firm actually behaves. The fact that K&E is more open about being “business-like” and calculating in its decisions does not mean that its actions are different than its peers or that its culture is any worse. If anything, I’d argue that the honesty is refreshing.

Would I rather be at a firm where the partners were truly sweet and kind and selfless and frequently sacrificed their own interests to benefit the associates (beyond what is required to increase productivity and decrease turnover)? Where they made decisions altruistically rather than as a business calculation? Sure. But that sort of firm doesn’t seem to actually exist, at least not anywhere among K&E’s peers.

If that’s going to be my actual, real life situation at every firm, I’d prefer not to have the partners lie and bullshit about it, then throw me under the bus when it’s to their advantage. Look at all the firms that talk a big game and then do layoffs or cut salaries the moment their profits are threatened in a downturn.

This really misses the point that there is a fundamental difference between a firm like DPW and between KW. Does DPW have many utterly miserable, overweight, thrice divorced partners happy to turn associates into ashen versions of themselves sure? But no matter how miserable these partners might be, they would still have the class not to think of their associates as chattel to be lit on fire and disposed of. I don't think a single DPW partner would ever send an email like the one Calder did, and I fully expect that a DPW partner doing so would be shown the door. There is class, and then there is KE, the closest thing to modern day dungeon.

It's not that other law firms are warm, fuzzy and happy places, its that KE has totally done away with the idea that there is any partnership model undergirding the business, or that associates are valued professionals entitled to be treated with a modicum of respect. KE associates are now treated like the equivalent of $5/hour call center workers outsourced to Costa Rica.

You can deduce all that from one email?

[Anonymous User]

The message to take away from the whole Calder Kirkland Texas thing is that the firm doesn't give a shit about "culture" or "collegiality" or "mentoring" or any of that other nonsense as long as you're bringing them piles of money. Not all partnerships operate this way (at least to this extreme) but Kirkland's certainly does and my understanding is it's a big change from how the firm used to run fifteen+ years ago when the business of the firm was viewed more as a team sport.

I agree with this for the firm writ large (there are some great teams within it), but I found my prior firms even more frustrating because they pretended that they were invested in training and mentoring associates and treating associates like they were valued team members when all interactions and firm actions completely belied that. The prior firms had emails or department calls like the Calder one, but they just never leaked.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. We both have it. Believe it or not there are firms out there--so I've been told--where partners actually care about their associates and are invested in training and mentoring and don't view us simply as fungible cogs for their next Porsche payment. Meaning they're neither passive aggressive psychopaths nor explicit psychopaths. Let's do better.

Oh, I agree with your sentiment. I just tend to see people avoid K&E only to go to a marginally less bad peer because it’s a V10/15/20. There’s no agreement on what firms are good for treating associates with dignity, so I think you have to be very intentional and seek out associates who’ve left to get the real scoop.

K&E Houston anon. I agree, and this is part of the point I was trying to make above. I don’t really care about some fake PR/HR wrapping paper, I care about how the firm actually behaves. The fact that K&E is more open about being “business-like” and calculating in its decisions does not mean that its actions are different than its peers or that its culture is any worse. If anything, I’d argue that the honesty is refreshing.

Would I rather be at a firm where the partners were truly sweet and kind and selfless and frequently sacrificed their own interests to benefit the associates (beyond what is required to increase productivity and decrease turnover)? Where they made decisions altruistically rather than as a business calculation? Sure. But that sort of firm doesn’t seem to actually exist, at least not anywhere among K&E’s peers.

If that’s going to be my actual, real life situation at every firm, I’d prefer not to have the partners lie and bullshit about it, then throw me under the bus when it’s to their advantage. Look at all the firms that talk a big game and then do layoffs or cut salaries the moment their profits are threatened in a downturn.

This really misses the point that there is a fundamental difference between a firm like DPW and between KW. Does DPW have many utterly miserable, overweight, thrice divorced partners happy to turn associates into ashen versions of themselves sure? But no matter how miserable these partners might be, they would still have the class not to think of their associates as chattel to be lit on fire and disposed of. I don't think a single DPW partner would ever send an email like the one Calder did, and I fully expect that a DPW partner doing so would be shown the door. There is class, and then there is KE, the closest thing to modern day dungeon.

It's not that other law firms are warm, fuzzy and happy places, its that KE has totally done away with the idea that there is any partnership model undergirding the business, or that associates are valued professionals entitled to be treated with a modicum of respect. KE associates are now treated like the equivalent of $5/hour call center workers outsourced to Costa Rica.

You can deduce all that from one email?

Did I miss the apology and mea culpa from KE, along with the announcement that Mr. Calder is stepping away from his role on the Executive Committee and as partner-in-charge of the Houston office?

Seems like the opposite is true, and KE is happy to embrace the in-your-face nastiness and the people that attracts. The QE of corporate law.

[Anonymous User]

It's also not really about the email anymore. It's that KE ppl itt don't think there's anything wrong with the email. Call it Stockholm, call it awareness of the tradeoff, call it whatever you want. There's a difference in culture. So I think this thread is pretty useful for 2Ls to decide. They might not have a problem with it either, so it might be a good fit! From the KE standpoint, this filtering process may even be a positive thing.