Debt finance/LevFi/Banking Outlook Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to debt finance specifically?

Also interested, but more curious how much more unpredictable leveraged finance is compared to M&A. Is it a consensus that the group is a nightmare?

It's more predictable in the sense that you'll be able to better predict when you're weekend/night will be ruined. It's worse in the sense that it'll happen more frequently than it does in M&A. Honestly though, it happens pretty frequently in M&A as well.

If I could do it again, I probably would just become a tax lawyer. My advice for every first year lawyer who still has a choice in this is, just become a tax lawyer. It's not sexy and no one wants to be the tax attorney at a cocktail party. But, outside of cocktail party, you'll always be needed, you're literally the only attorney clients will give a shit about, you'll be the only person who knows what you're talking about so you'll have a ton of leverage and you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you want without having to play politics or kiss ass.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Don’t know why it’s hilarious that some ppl want and expect to prioritize their career. The way I see it, if you’re angling for an exit sooner than a failure to attain partnership then big law was the wrong choice. But, I guess macro point taken, that practice is a diff beast

Just in here to dunk on this extremely bad post, which is extremely confused about why someone would want this job for a time period between 0 and 40 years.

[Anonymous User]

What's the upside to debt/lev fi then? This thread makes it seem like an absolute nightmare other than the fact that if you can hang you might have better odds at partner. Is there a rosier picture? I was seriously considering jumping to one of these groups but idk now. Figured it would be on par with corporate practice generally in terms of demands.

[Anonymous User]

I am currently a mid-level in a finance group at a a V25*. My group focuses on direct lending and restructurings, so weekends are not regularly destroyed by papers. I do not think I would still be around in a lev-fin focused practice.

Most recent exits include a pivot to ECVC and a couple folks moving in-house at funds. The in-house moves happened at year 6+, so later than what I see in general corporate and capital markets.

*Send me a message if you’re interested; we’re hiring and the group is not a toxic place.

Would you be able to elaborate more on why lev fin is so bad?

Commitment papers. The best ones are awful to be on. The worst ones are worse than anything I've done in M&A. Sometimes you need to turn a 100 page plus set of commitment papers in 24-48 hours (issues list, call with client, checking precedent marking up the document, etc.). The commitment papers are just as dense as a credit agreement. So it's basically reviewing, marking up and turning an entire credit agreement in 1-2 days. It's crazy.

I was a strong junior associate in a top finance group and honestly I couldn't get through credit agreements or commitment papers when I got to the point of being tapped to do smaller deals directly with partners. People would use a ruler to read line by line and I realized I had way too much debt left to leave biglaw, but that there was no way I could thrive as a mid-level without wanting to spoon my eyes out or have my partners hate working with me. Switched to M&A and it was a lot easier and the concepts are just easier to draft and negotiate. The main documents are just not as legally dense and filled with mind-numbing minutia.

[Anonymous User]

What's the upside to debt/lev fi then? This thread makes it seem like an absolute nightmare other than the fact that if you can hang you might have better odds at partner. Is there a rosier picture? I was seriously considering jumping to one of these groups but idk now. Figured it would be on par with corporate practice generally in terms of demands.

I'm still a junior so maybe it will still hit me when I'm more senior, but I honestly don't mind credit agreements and commitment papers. I've actually been mostly enjoying my work. Attention to detail seems to suit my skill set. I'm in no way trying to convince anyone but so long as I have my niche and I'm valued, I'm good. I'm not actually sure I'd be good at M&A anyway.

[Anonymous User]

What's the upside to debt/lev fi then? This thread makes it seem like an absolute nightmare other than the fact that if you can hang you might have better odds at partner. Is there a rosier picture? I was seriously considering jumping to one of these groups but idk now. Figured it would be on par with corporate practice generally in terms of demands.

I'm still a junior so maybe it will still hit me when I'm more senior, but I honestly don't mind credit agreements and commitment papers. I've actually been mostly enjoying my work. Attention to detail seems to suit my skill set. I'm in no way trying to convince anyone but so long as I have my niche and I'm valued, I'm good. I'm not actually sure I'd be good at M&A anyway.

In your experience, are the hours/fire drills as bad as they are made out to be here?

[Anonymous User]

If you manage to stick around long enough (which most people don't), you're basically guaranteed partnership at my firm although they'll make you hang out as a counsel for a few years first.

Follow up on this - people who don't manage to stick around, is it bc they get sick of the hours or they get eases out? What's good advice for how to stick around?

Anonymous poster from above - I have only heard of one person in my group who was pushed out because they were too protective of their evenings / weekends in terms of not being responsive and/or turning down new deals. If the group is slammed and you're insisting on a 40-60 hour work week, you won't make it long. Everyone else leaves voluntarily. Hours are certainly part of it but for me it's more the unpredictability and feeling of always being on call - if I knew I had to work every weekday from 10 - 10 plus every second weekend or whatever, that would be a lot easier. Being absolutely unable to plan anything, having to cancel plans at the last second, un-inviting friends from dinner at my place because papers came in unexpectedly and need to be turned right away etc. really ruins your life.

In terms of how to stick around, I think the most helpful things are to (i) actually like this shit which makes the sacrifices more worth it and the lifestyle more bearable and (ii) learn as much as you can as fast as you can to become more efficient (and reduce anxiety / stress). (I will say some of the more senior people (esp men) in my group seem to have managed to find a spouse who runs their family / personal life and has no expectations of them being around with any reliability which presumably helps if that's the kind of relationship you want to be in ... )

[Anonymous User]

If you manage to stick around long enough (which most people don't), you're basically guaranteed partnership at my firm although they'll make you hang out as a counsel for a few years first.

Follow up on this - people who don't manage to stick around, is it bc they get sick of the hours or they get eases out? What's good advice for how to stick around?

Anonymous poster from above - I have only heard of one person in my group who was pushed out because they were too protective of their evenings / weekends in terms of not being responsive and/or turning down new deals. If the group is slammed and you're insisting on a 40-60 hour work week, you won't make it long. Everyone else leaves voluntarily. Hours are certainly part of it but for me it's more the unpredictability and feeling of always being on call - if I knew I had to work every weekday from 10 - 10 plus every second weekend or whatever, that would be a lot easier. Being absolutely unable to plan anything, having to cancel plans at the last second, un-inviting friends from dinner at my place because papers came in unexpectedly and need to be turned right away etc. really ruins your life.

In terms of how to stick around, I think the most helpful things are to (i) actually like this shit which makes the sacrifices more worth it and the lifestyle more bearable and (ii) learn as much as you can as fast as you can to become more efficient (and reduce anxiety / stress). (I will say some of the more senior people (esp men) in my group seem to have managed to find a spouse who runs their family / personal life and has no expectations of them being around with any reliability which presumably helps if that's the kind of relationship you want to be in ... )

Is this really unique to debt finance tho?

[Anonymous User]

Midlevel lev fin associate at a NY V5 here. I have seen several peers go in-house at banks. I have seen a lot more people go to other firms, sometimes to more general lev fin / cap markets roles than solely lev fin. I don't think I've ever seen anyone in my group go in-house at a company, a private equity shop or to a general corporate position.

Lifestyle might depend on which side you're on (borrower side folks, please weigh in) but I'm mostly lender side and the "life" part is basically non-existent. My hours were 2000-2300 pre-COVID as a junior and 2600-2800 during COVID as a midlevel (hoping to get back to pre-COVID hours at some point in the next year or two when the market slows down).

If you manage to stick around long enough (which most people don't), you're basically guaranteed partnership at my firm although they'll make you hang out as a counsel for a few years first.

Appreciate the input. Would you pick lev fin again if you were to do it all over? I think it’s the group I’m most interested in but don’t want to pigeon hole myself early on due to the limits it presents outside the law firm world.

Anonymous poster from above - Probably yes but in large part because of group-specific factors at my firm and just general fit.

Generally, I do think lev fin juniors get very good experience and a fair amount of responsibility early on and I prefer that to the (limited) experience I had with due diligence in M&A work and doc review in litigation. At my firm, lev fin deals are leanly staffed (unlike M&A and lit) so there's usually only one junior on each deal and they're responsible for running several work streams, will work directly with clients on those work streams and will get some drafting experience. This continues on to midlevels who basically run their own deals with partners reviewing only the core documents (more or less closely depending on the partner). It's kind of general knowledge at my firm that the corporate groups micro-manage their juniors (to the point of dictating entire emails) whereas the banking group throws their juniors into the deep end and hopes they can swim - somewhat true and terrifying in the beginning but a great way to learn (and once you've been there for a bit, you build relationships with more senior people who can help you out if you really don't know what you're doing and they're always willing to do so even if they're not staffed on your deal).

This is very subjective but my general sense is that our M&A / cap markets teams are more "bro-y" and our lev fin group is more "brainiacs" but don't know if that's just my firm / my impression. I generally like the people in my group and it's one of the most diverse groups at the firm (ironically because of the hours / unpredictability, my firm is having a hard time retaining people who are not tied to the firm because of visa issues, lol). Substantively, I don't find finance any more / less interesting than corporate so it's a lot about the people and every day experience for me. Exit options are of course a factor in favor of corporate though.

[Anonymous User]

If you manage to stick around long enough (which most people don't), you're basically guaranteed partnership at my firm although they'll make you hang out as a counsel for a few years first.

Follow up on this - people who don't manage to stick around, is it bc they get sick of the hours or they get eases out? What's good advice for how to stick around?

Anonymous poster from above - I have only heard of one person in my group who was pushed out because they were too protective of their evenings / weekends in terms of not being responsive and/or turning down new deals. If the group is slammed and you're insisting on a 40-60 hour work week, you won't make it long. Everyone else leaves voluntarily. Hours are certainly part of it but for me it's more the unpredictability and feeling of always being on call - if I knew I had to work every weekday from 10 - 10 plus every second weekend or whatever, that would be a lot easier. Being absolutely unable to plan anything, having to cancel plans at the last second, un-inviting friends from dinner at my place because papers came in unexpectedly and need to be turned right away etc. really ruins your life.

In terms of how to stick around, I think the most helpful things are to (i) actually like this shit which makes the sacrifices more worth it and the lifestyle more bearable and (ii) learn as much as you can as fast as you can to become more efficient (and reduce anxiety / stress). (I will say some of the more senior people (esp men) in my group seem to have managed to find a spouse who runs their family / personal life and has no expectations of them being around with any reliability which presumably helps if that's the kind of relationship you want to be in ... )

Is this really unique to debt finance tho?

Didn't say it was. Agreed that this probably helps everywhere.

[Anonymous User]

If you manage to stick around long enough (which most people don't), you're basically guaranteed partnership at my firm although they'll make you hang out as a counsel for a few years first.

Follow up on this - people who don't manage to stick around, is it bc they get sick of the hours or they get eases out? What's good advice for how to stick around?

Anonymous poster from above - I have only heard of one person in my group who was pushed out because they were too protective of their evenings / weekends in terms of not being responsive and/or turning down new deals. If the group is slammed and you're insisting on a 40-60 hour work week, you won't make it long. Everyone else leaves voluntarily. Hours are certainly part of it but for me it's more the unpredictability and feeling of always being on call - if I knew I had to work every weekday from 10 - 10 plus every second weekend or whatever, that would be a lot easier. Being absolutely unable to plan anything, having to cancel plans at the last second, un-inviting friends from dinner at my place because papers came in unexpectedly and need to be turned right away etc. really ruins your life.

In terms of how to stick around, I think the most helpful things are to (i) actually like this shit which makes the sacrifices more worth it and the lifestyle more bearable and (ii) learn as much as you can as fast as you can to become more efficient (and reduce anxiety / stress). (I will say some of the more senior people (esp men) in my group seem to have managed to find a spouse who runs their family / personal life and has no expectations of them being around with any reliability which presumably helps if that's the kind of relationship you want to be in ... )

Is this really unique to debt finance tho?

Didn't say it was. Agreed that this probably helps everywhere.

Yeah, appreciate the input, just trying to determine just how amped up the unpredictability is in levfin.

[Anonymous User]

If you manage to stick around long enough (which most people don't), you're basically guaranteed partnership at my firm although they'll make you hang out as a counsel for a few years first.

Follow up on this - people who don't manage to stick around, is it bc they get sick of the hours or they get eases out? What's good advice for how to stick around?

Anonymous poster from above - I have only heard of one person in my group who was pushed out because they were too protective of their evenings / weekends in terms of not being responsive and/or turning down new deals. If the group is slammed and you're insisting on a 40-60 hour work week, you won't make it long. Everyone else leaves voluntarily. Hours are certainly part of it but for me it's more the unpredictability and feeling of always being on call - if I knew I had to work every weekday from 10 - 10 plus every second weekend or whatever, that would be a lot easier. Being absolutely unable to plan anything, having to cancel plans at the last second, un-inviting friends from dinner at my place because papers came in unexpectedly and need to be turned right away etc. really ruins your life.

In terms of how to stick around, I think the most helpful things are to (i) actually like this shit which makes the sacrifices more worth it and the lifestyle more bearable and (ii) learn as much as you can as fast as you can to become more efficient (and reduce anxiety / stress). (I will say some of the more senior people (esp men) in my group seem to have managed to find a spouse who runs their family / personal life and has no expectations of them being around with any reliability which presumably helps if that's the kind of relationship you want to be in ... )

Thanks. This is useful candid advice.

[Anonymous User]

What's the upside to debt/lev fi then? This thread makes it seem like an absolute nightmare other than the fact that if you can hang you might have better odds at partner. Is there a rosier picture? I was seriously considering jumping to one of these groups but idk now. Figured it would be on par with corporate practice generally in terms of demands.

I'm still a junior so maybe it will still hit me when I'm more senior, but I honestly don't mind credit agreements and commitment papers. I've actually been mostly enjoying my work. Attention to detail seems to suit my skill set. I'm in no way trying to convince anyone but so long as I have my niche and I'm valued, I'm good. I'm not actually sure I'd be good at M&A anyway.

In your experience, are the hours/fire drills as bad as they are made out to be here?

I don't really have enough experience or points of comparison to fully answer this. It's very busy now, they tell me more than usual. Documents do usually need to be turned around fast. I haven't felt like the lifestyle is too much for me, and I think it helps that I'm actually enjoying the work. I honestly didn't expect to.

[Anonymous User]

What's the upside to debt/lev fi then? This thread makes it seem like an absolute nightmare other than the fact that if you can hang you might have better odds at partner. Is there a rosier picture? I was seriously considering jumping to one of these groups but idk now. Figured it would be on par with corporate practice generally in terms of demands.

Lifestyle and substance will vary depending on the kind of finance you're doing but i agree with others here that acquisition lev-fin is by far the worst in terms of lifestyle. I think it gets better as you drift towards special situations, private/direct lending, or distressed lending because the deals don't lend themselves to high volume churn. There's a trade-off that comes with that though. Acquisition lev-fin provides the best partner prospects precisely because it's a high volume business that generates stable fees. The more bespoke types of finance may offer better exit options but your partner prospects aren't as good - with the exception of maybe Proskauer and Ropes, i can't think of a firm where the special situations/private credit group wields real influence.

I hated my rotation in lev fin/credit at what-used-to-be-a-V5 but I've grown to appreciate the experience more and more - I chose a different BigLaw practice and am now on the buy-side. It's true that the learning curve in any finance practice is incredibly steep. Documents are dense and technical and the concepts are usually unfamiliar to your garden variety law school graduate. But debt finance concepts are so deeply engrained in everything "corporate" - bankruptcy/restructuring, securities, M&A, any kind of fundraising, even litigation disputes. Unless your plan is to go in-house as a 3rd year M&A associate, you will eventually be forced to confront finance at some point in your career. Better to learn that stuff early as a junior.

That said, I don't think i could recommend a prolonged stint in lev-fin BigLaw. My peers are now 6-7th years and their palatable exit options are mostly other law firms. Most don't want to take the comp hit of going to a bank. I've seen a few go buy-side but that path is much easier if you're coming from a restructuring or private credit platform.

[Anonymous User]

What's the upside to debt/lev fi then? This thread makes it seem like an absolute nightmare other than the fact that if you can hang you might have better odds at partner. Is there a rosier picture? I was seriously considering jumping to one of these groups but idk now. Figured it would be on par with corporate practice generally in terms of demands.

Lifestyle and substance will vary depending on the kind of finance you're doing but i agree with others here that acquisition lev-fin is by far the worst in terms of lifestyle. I think it gets better as you drift towards special situations, private/direct lending, or distressed lending because the deals don't lend themselves to high volume churn. There's a trade-off that comes with that though. Acquisition lev-fin provides the best partner prospects precisely because it's a high volume business that generates stable fees. The more bespoke types of finance may offer better exit options but your partner prospects aren't as good - with the exception of maybe Proskauer and Ropes, i can't think of a firm where the special situations/private credit group wields real influence.

I hated my rotation in lev fin/credit at what-used-to-be-a-V5 but I've grown to appreciate the experience more and more - I chose a different BigLaw practice and am now on the buy-side. It's true that the learning curve in any finance practice is incredibly steep. Documents are dense and technical and the concepts are usually unfamiliar to your garden variety law school graduate. But debt finance concepts are so deeply engrained in everything "corporate" - bankruptcy/restructuring, securities, M&A, any kind of fundraising, even litigation disputes. Unless your plan is to go in-house as a 3rd year M&A associate, you will eventually be forced to confront finance at some point in your career. Better to learn that stuff early as a junior.

That said, I don't think i could recommend a prolonged stint in lev-fin BigLaw. My peers are now 6-7th years and their palatable exit options are mostly other law firms. Most don't want to take the comp hit of going to a bank. I've seen a few go buy-side but that path is much easier if you're coming from a restructuring or private credit platform.

Just how good hard is going buyside from an elite sponsor side lev fin shop? I was reading another post on reddit claiming that you are of value to PE on the buyside because you have high level knowledge of good/bad financing packages... Know it’s incredibly hard from any group, but does lev if give you one of the better shots?

[Anonymous User]

interested +1

[Anonymous User]

What's the upside to debt/lev fi then? This thread makes it seem like an absolute nightmare other than the fact that if you can hang you might have better odds at partner. Is there a rosier picture? I was seriously considering jumping to one of these groups but idk now. Figured it would be on par with corporate practice generally in terms of demands.

Lifestyle and substance will vary depending on the kind of finance you're doing but i agree with others here that acquisition lev-fin is by far the worst in terms of lifestyle. I think it gets better as you drift towards special situations, private/direct lending, or distressed lending because the deals don't lend themselves to high volume churn. There's a trade-off that comes with that though. Acquisition lev-fin provides the best partner prospects precisely because it's a high volume business that generates stable fees. The more bespoke types of finance may offer better exit options but your partner prospects aren't as good - with the exception of maybe Proskauer and Ropes, i can't think of a firm where the special situations/private credit group wields real influence.

I hated my rotation in lev fin/credit at what-used-to-be-a-V5 but I've grown to appreciate the experience more and more - I chose a different BigLaw practice and am now on the buy-side. It's true that the learning curve in any finance practice is incredibly steep. Documents are dense and technical and the concepts are usually unfamiliar to your garden variety law school graduate. But debt finance concepts are so deeply engrained in everything "corporate" - bankruptcy/restructuring, securities, M&A, any kind of fundraising, even litigation disputes. Unless your plan is to go in-house as a 3rd year M&A associate, you will eventually be forced to confront finance at some point in your career. Better to learn that stuff early as a junior.

That said, I don't think i could recommend a prolonged stint in lev-fin BigLaw. My peers are now 6-7th years and their palatable exit options are mostly other law firms. Most don't want to take the comp hit of going to a bank. I've seen a few go buy-side but that path is much easier if you're coming from a restructuring or private credit platform.

Just how good hard is going buyside from an elite sponsor side lev fin shop? I was reading another post on reddit claiming that you are of value to PE on the buyside because you have high level knowledge of good/bad financing packages... Know it’s incredibly hard from any group, but does lev if give you one of the better shots?

I'm credit buy-side, not PE. So don't have any direct experience to draw on. I don't know anyone who jumped to the PE side from Biglaw finance/restructuring (although there are those that went to the credit arms of those buyout shops). Not sure if I'm just not in the loop or if there's some reason why that jump isn't as common. Might be partly because the larger buyout shops have special fee arrangements with their preferred law firms so they can afford to outsource a lot of the finance work.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a lender-side junior/mid in this practice and no, I would not say it's a lifestyle group. If you billed under 2200 this year, you were living on easy street. I and others I know are on track for 2400+, up to 2700 or so at my shop.

In my limited experience, exits as a junior are poor unless you are willing to take a 100k salary cut to work for smaller legal team in-house as a generalist (possibly on a road to nowhere), and dropping that far down as a junior is too much for most people to stomach. Most juniors lateral to buy downtime and collect a signing bonus while shedding themselves of accumulative work, which is an underrated reason to lateral.

Mids (think 5th year, not 3rd year) can make it to banks with 175k-225k salaries, as I understand it. Topping out at 250k or so in many cases. And as mentioned above, you are adjacent to bankruptcy and might survive even a fairly deep recession, depending.

Lol. THis is so true. After 2 years the legacy deals coming with "we got an incremental acquisition, can you get an amendment by Monday" (on a thursday) is more miserable than new deal work.

[TheoO]

Is it a consensus view that finance is generally one of the easier/better areas to make partner in?

Uhhh...if you can survive, at my firm at least, you're going to make partner. If you can survive...

This is the same conclusion I've reached: if I really wanted to make partner, I could probably do it in my finance practice because churn is so high, simply surviving says something. Problem is that it is miserable, and I could not see myself doing this for longer than another year (I'm a 5th). Dreaming leaving this all asap.

[Anonymous User]

Lol. THis is so true. After 2 years the legacy deals coming with "we got an incremental acquisition, can you get an amendment by Monday" (on a thursday) is more miserable than new deal work.

After 5 years, this is probably 40% of my work not in small part to having to inherit all of the cumulative work of everyone else that's left over the years -- and the timelines are often closing within a week or two. I would kill to just work on new deals all day.

[tk2585]

Saw on fishbowl that LevFin is probably dead for the foreseeable future due to high rates. Can someone confirm/expand upon this? How worried should I be as someone looking to do levfin?

[Anonymous User]

Saw on fishbowl that LevFin is probably dead for the foreseeable future due to high rates. Can someone confirm/expand upon this? How worried should I be as someone looking to do levfin?

Curious as well. And how's levfin different from private debt/direct lending, and does it matter if the firm focuses on lender side or borrower/sponsor side?