Why don’t more biglaw attorneys refuse RTO? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am not exaggerating when I say that my firm having a hybrid model and adopting an unspoken full casual dress code has combined to keep me way longer than if it had gone back to 5x a week and office dress again.

Off topic but as a first year the "unspoken full casual" is hella confusing. At any given day you see everything from jeans to suits. I feel awkward going casual so I'm staying with bus cas for now.

Wear pajamas. Assert dominance.

[Anonymous User]

I am not exaggerating when I say that my firm having a hybrid model and adopting an unspoken full casual dress code has combined to keep me way longer than if it had gone back to 5x a week and office dress again.

Off topic but as a first year the "unspoken full casual" is hella confusing. At any given day you see everything from jeans to suits. I feel awkward going casual so I'm staying with bus cas for now.

Wear pajamas. Assert dominance.

A senior M&A associate I used to sit across from was always very busy, clearly quite good at his job, and could sometimes be kind of a jerk and demanding. In the summer he would sometimes show up to the office in shorts, a band T-Shirt, and sandals. I was treated to one moment where a senior partner from another office was visiting, all suited up and traditional, and just stared at the guy for a super awkward like five seconds before walking away. Not quite pajamas, but if you're billing 2800 hours or whatever I guess you can kind of do whatever you want.

[nls336]

It's also important to note, a solid amount of people likes being in the office. There are scores of people who do not have friends, a partner (or a partner they want to be away from), etc. and for them the office is a nice place to socialize. The office lovers won't admit to this (who likes admitting they don't have any social contact outside of work or they're sick of their partner?), but it's what I've noticed.

Lol, people can have friends/love their partners and still want to RTO.

Not saying no one meets your description, just that not all advocates for RTO are pathetic losers with no other social outlet.

Not trying to strike a nerve w/ anyone, BUT the few times I went into the office pre-omicron and post-delta I was talking with a few single ladies (I am also a woman) and one point that stuck out to me was how many people use work to find significant relationships, like partners/friends, etc. Chicken or the egg in terms of whether work prevents meaningful interaction outside of its working totalitarian bubble (time-wise) or whether those people are driven to find relationships at work because they're just driven totally by work of their own accord. Still, I was struck by what a friend said to me. "Of course, you don't want to go into the office, you're already dating someone. When you need to find a husband but they're all WFH it sucks."

The broader comment I've noticed returning to the office is that there are a lot of people who haven't adjusted (in my opinion), and, at the root, that's what I think RTO is all about. Society has fully changed over the last 2 years. WFH has changed all of us in some ways, whether we like to acknowledge that has no bearing on whether we have or society has changed. Going back to the office just feels like a refusal to acknowledge everything we've gone through in the past few years (to some of us), and to others, it is the thing they are waiting for because it signals a "return" to something they liked/missed/enjoyed in some way--and yes, people can retroactively assign enjoyment to things that they didn't like at the time in light of how it's all been taken away from them.

For me, I consider it a POV issue. Are we "returning" to the past style of work and work worship? If so, I am not open to that on any level. I will not be at my desk in a shared office space, in the middle of a respiratory pandemic, just so I can stay as late as a partner who is paid millions of dollars to do their job does. Likewise, I don't feel the need to appease middle managers by picking out my high heels and expensive outfits and wasting 4 hours a day preparing my outside shell to go to an office to do the same work I could do in my pajamas covered in tomato sauce. Maybe in 2019 I actually looked forward to these aspects? I honestly don't remember. It's not just been 2 years, it's been 2 years in a global pandemic in the most politically tumultuous time in living American memory.

If we don't just "return to normal" what are we going to do instead? Are we acknowledging that the past 2 years, and likely now almost a third year will be WFH partially or totally, even with the vaccine, have totally changed people's relationships to work? Nobody really knows what honoring peoples' changing/changed expectations of work will look like -- in that sense, it is an existential uncertainty. I read once people preferred pain and negative stimuli to no stimuli at all. The perfect metaphor is that some characters preferred to be plugged into the matrix than living in the world as it really was. I've noticed that NYC is totally different for me on a mental level. Manhattan looks sort of pathetic with all of these massive empty skyrises. We devoted so much land, space, building, resources to these offices which amount to nothing more than temples of productivity or shrines to work, in my view. The ultimate irony is that now the urban economy, which was built around that daily grind, is slowing to a halt as people blatantly refuse to ride the subway to their cubicle shrine and pay overpriced fees for lunches that are just okay and drycleaning for suits that they no longer need to launder. I guess firms really need to be intentional. I will not return to the office to take zooms at a desk in a shared office space just so I can boost Manhattan's struggling and virtually uncompetitive economy when I already pay astronomical sums of money to live here. But, if firms can offer us something more than just come sit at the desk to take a zoom call, and can be intentional about asking us to give them in-person time for legitimate reasons, then I suppose that's a different ballgame.

But, the mentality of "the juniors need it" when I'm about to become a mid-level during the WFH environment strikes me as disingenuine and a degree of bullshit that people just aren't eager to put up with anymore, especially after 2 years of having more control over our own lives. Americans are suddenly asking themselves: "what is the point of work?" We work all day long and so few of us ever dig ourselves out of debt or get ahead meaningfully in a way that makes the time of our single, precious life, which we devoted to working, feel like it wasn't wasted. Other people in this thread called us rule followers, but, I don't know about that. Lawyers are always looking for ways to advantage themselves and their positions, and I would wager a firm that has a bad WFH policy will lose many of its lawyers to positions that are willing to work in concert with advantaging the lawyer's quality of life concerns relative to time and work expectations.

[Anonymous User]

I go to the office because I live in a tiny apartment and have a 3 month old son who scream cries fairly frequently (spouse is on parental leave until mid-February). I'm basically the only young person who goes in; the only other people who go in frequently are my bosses. The plus side is they think I'm really dedicated to my job because they always see me in-person, but truly I just can't concentrate at home. I worked from home today because of snow and did maybe 30 minutes of work.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

It's hard to imagine returning to the old normal. Younger lawyers have generally adapted to work from home - either they did much of law school remotely or they developed as juniors remotely. And, once schools and day care centers can reliably keep normal hours, I suspect many of those with children will more readily embrace WFH. Many law firms are putting off the inevitable because of the money invested in office space but there's no doubt in my mind that we will never go back to the way things were. Even hybrid seems like a pipe dream.

[morinko48]

It's also important to note, a solid amount of people likes being in the office. There are scores of people who do not have friends, a partner (or a partner they want to be away from), etc. and for them the office is a nice place to socialize. The office lovers won't admit to this (who likes admitting they don't have any social contact outside of work or they're sick of their partner?), but it's what I've noticed.

Lol, people can have friends/love their partners and still want to RTO.

Not saying no one meets your description, just that not all advocates for RTO are pathetic losers with no other social outlet.

Not trying to strike a nerve w/ anyone, BUT the few times I went into the office pre-omicron and post-delta I was talking with a few single ladies (I am also a woman) and one point that stuck out to me was how many people use work to find significant relationships, like partners/friends, etc. Chicken or the egg in terms of whether work prevents meaningful interaction outside of its working totalitarian bubble (time-wise) or whether those people are driven to find relationships at work because they're just driven totally by work of their own accord. Still, I was struck by what a friend said to me. "Of course, you don't want to go into the office, you're already dating someone. When you need to find a husband but they're all WFH it sucks."

The broader comment I've noticed returning to the office is that there are a lot of people who haven't adjusted (in my opinion), and, at the root, that's what I think RTO is all about. Society has fully changed over the last 2 years. WFH has changed all of us in some ways, whether we like to acknowledge that has no bearing on whether we have or society has changed. Going back to the office just feels like a refusal to acknowledge everything we've gone through in the past few years (to some of us), and to others, it is the thing they are waiting for because it signals a "return" to something they liked/missed/enjoyed in some way--and yes, people can retroactively assign enjoyment to things that they didn't like at the time in light of how it's all been taken away from them.

For me, I consider it a POV issue. Are we "returning" to the past style of work and work worship? If so, I am not open to that on any level. I will not be at my desk in a shared office space, in the middle of a respiratory pandemic, just so I can stay as late as a partner who is paid millions of dollars to do their job does. Likewise, I don't feel the need to appease middle managers by picking out my high heels and expensive outfits and wasting 4 hours a day preparing my outside shell to go to an office to do the same work I could do in my pajamas covered in tomato sauce. Maybe in 2019 I actually looked forward to these aspects? I honestly don't remember. It's not just been 2 years, it's been 2 years in a global pandemic in the most politically tumultuous time in living American memory.

If we don't just "return to normal" what are we going to do instead? Are we acknowledging that the past 2 years, and likely now almost a third year will be WFH partially or totally, even with the vaccine, have totally changed people's relationships to work? Nobody really knows what honoring peoples' changing/changed expectations of work will look like -- in that sense, it is an existential uncertainty. I read once people preferred pain and negative stimuli to no stimuli at all. The perfect metaphor is that some characters preferred to be plugged into the matrix than living in the world as it really was. I've noticed that NYC is totally different for me on a mental level. Manhattan looks sort of pathetic with all of these massive empty skyrises. We devoted so much land, space, building, resources to these offices which amount to nothing more than temples of productivity or shrines to work, in my view. The ultimate irony is that now the urban economy, which was built around that daily grind, is slowing to a halt as people blatantly refuse to ride the subway to their cubicle shrine and pay overpriced fees for lunches that are just okay and drycleaning for suits that they no longer need to launder. I guess firms really need to be intentional. I will not return to the office to take zooms at a desk in a shared office space just so I can boost Manhattan's struggling and virtually uncompetitive economy when I already pay astronomical sums of money to live here. But, if firms can offer us something more than just come sit at the desk to take a zoom call, and can be intentional about asking us to give them in-person time for legitimate reasons, then I suppose that's a different ballgame.

But, the mentality of "the juniors need it" when I'm about to become a mid-level during the WFH environment strikes me as disingenuine and a degree of bullshit that people just aren't eager to put up with anymore, especially after 2 years of having more control over our own lives. Americans are suddenly asking themselves: "what is the point of work?" We work all day long and so few of us ever dig ourselves out of debt or get ahead meaningfully in a way that makes the time of our single, precious life, which we devoted to working, feel like it wasn't wasted. Other people in this thread called us rule followers, but, I don't know about that. Lawyers are always looking for ways to advantage themselves and their positions, and I would wager a firm that has a bad WFH policy will lose many of its lawyers to positions that are willing to work in concert with advantaging the lawyer's quality of life concerns relative to time and work expectations.

I support and agree with every single word of this.

[Anonymous User]

It's also important to note, a solid amount of people likes being in the office. There are scores of people who do not have friends, a partner (or a partner they want to be away from), etc. and for them the office is a nice place to socialize. The office lovers won't admit to this (who likes admitting they don't have any social contact outside of work or they're sick of their partner?), but it's what I've noticed.

Lol, people can have friends/love their partners and still want to RTO.

Not saying no one meets your description, just that not all advocates for RTO are pathetic losers with no other social outlet.

Likewise, I don't feel the need to appease middle managers by picking out my high heels and expensive outfits and wasting 4 hours a day preparing my outside shell to go to an office to do the same work I could do in my pajamas covered in tomato sauce.

I know this is not the point of the post, but as a woman, I do not understand how anyone could spend 4 hours a day getting ready unless they are a starlet prepping for the Golden Globes. I mean, I'm a pretty low-key person and don't have a lot wrapped up in my appearance, but I don't think I look like a total disaster and it takes me maybe 20 minutes to get ready, especially if I shower the night before so I don't need to mess with my hair. Maybe it's time to rethink the beauty routine?

[Anonymous User]

Not the original anon who claimed 4 hours - it doesn’t take me 4 hours (I suspect that was slight exaggeration), but it for sure takes way longer than it takes my husband. First, my shower itself is like 15-20 minutes (I have long hair, shaving takes time). If I’m going out into the world I need to shower and style my hair in the morning. Long hair takes forever to dry and I need to style it. I don’t wear a lot of makeup, but I do wear it, and I need to (for instance) let face creams sink in before putting the makeup on. I can put on an outfit I’ve worn 19 times before and hate it that day and have to find something else.

Like yes, sure, I could give up makeup and get a different hair cut. But I don’t like the way I look when I do. I could go for a literal uniform but I feel weird doing that and I think it’s tougher for women to get away with uniforms anyway (if nothing else, some days I need to wear a suit and some days I don’t. Weather changes. Etc.).

So yeah, some of this is self-inflicted, but gender expectations around appearance are hard to ignore. And even the minimal version (like even your 20 mins) takes a lot more effort, if only mental, than rolling out of bed and putting on sweats.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

[Anonymous User]

Not the original anon who claimed 4 hours - it doesn’t take me 4 hours (I suspect that was slight exaggeration), but it for sure takes way longer than it takes my husband. First, my shower itself is like 15-20 minutes (I have long hair, shaving takes time). If I’m going out into the world I need to shower and style my hair in the morning. Long hair takes forever to dry and I need to style it. I don’t wear a lot of makeup, but I do wear it, and I need to (for instance) let face creams sink in before putting the makeup on. I can put on an outfit I’ve worn 19 times before and hate it that day and have to find something else.

Like yes, sure, I could give up makeup and get a different hair cut. But I don’t like the way I look when I do. I could go for a literal uniform but I feel weird doing that and I think it’s tougher for women to get away with uniforms anyway (if nothing else, some days I need to wear a suit and some days I don’t. Weather changes. Etc.).

So yeah, some of this is self-inflicted, but gender expectations around appearance are hard to ignore. And even the minimal version (like even your 20 mins) takes a lot more effort, if only mental, than rolling out of bed and putting on sweats.

+1, particularly the "even the minimal version takes a lot more effort, if only mental, than rolling out of bed and putting on sweats."

In the pre-COVID days, I could get up, shower & do makeup, and eat breakfast within an hour before heading out the door. Yesterday, I woke up, reached for my laptop on the desk right next to the bed, and started working. To the prior poster's point, the mental energy that's not needed around "what do I wear/is my hair & makeup alright" is so freeing.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

This might be true of people who don't live in NYC, but I know no one among my friends with kids who has anything even approaching a "home office with a door." That is a luxury that is so beyond my reach....

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

This might be true of people who don't live in NYC, but I know no one among my friends with kids who has anything even approaching a "home office with a door." That is a luxury that is so beyond my reach....

Hmm yeah good point. Am not in NYC. But it's only not in reach if you insist on living in the city. If you move to NJ, CT, LI, and commute you too can attain the American dream of having a basement and a tiny square of lawn

[nixy]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

I think the child care is one of the big issues here. Some people with used to be able to WFH because the kids were in school. If the kids are doing virtual schooling from home - and especially if they’re too young to manage that on their own - and you don’t have a SAH spouse - it doesn’t matter if you have an office with a door that closes. Because people are making the shift to WFH in a pandemic that may well have blown their previous arrangements to hell.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

I think the child care is one of the big issues here. Some people with used to be able to WFH because the kids were in school. If the kids are doing virtual schooling from home - and especially if they’re too young to manage that on their own - and you don’t have a SAH spouse - it doesn’t matter if you have an office with a door that closes. Because people are making the shift to WFH in a pandemic that may well have blown their previous arrangements to hell.

I'm not following how this adds up to not wanting WFH - who is watching the kids when you go into the office?

[nixy]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

I think the child care is one of the big issues here. Some people with used to be able to WFH because the kids were in school. If the kids are doing virtual schooling from home - and especially if they’re too young to manage that on their own - and you don’t have a SAH spouse - it doesn’t matter if you have an office with a door that closes. Because people are making the shift to WFH in a pandemic that may well have blown their previous arrangements to hell.

I'm not following how this adds up to not wanting WFH - who is watching the kids when you go into the office?

if it's not a pandemic, depending on their age, their school teachers. (You may need after-school care, but that's still very different from finding all-day care.) You’re right of course that people who want to go into the office during the pandemic when schools are closed have to find some kind of child care so I guess either way you’re hosed.

But I'll shift ground a little and say that working at home with kids isn't always that distraction-free even if you do have child care (I'd bet especially if they were used to going to school every day). And I do agree that not having to commute and such can let you be much more immediately present. I think it just can vary a lot by personal circumstances.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

I think the child care is one of the big issues here. Some people with used to be able to WFH because the kids were in school. If the kids are doing virtual schooling from home - and especially if they’re too young to manage that on their own - and you don’t have a SAH spouse - it doesn’t matter if you have an office with a door that closes. Because people are making the shift to WFH in a pandemic that may well have blown their previous arrangements to hell.

I'm not following how this adds up to not wanting WFH - who is watching the kids when you go into the office?

if it's not a pandemic, depending on their age, their school teachers. (You may need after-school care, but that's still very different from finding all-day care.)

I feel like we're talking past each other. The premise was that WFH is harder for those with kids, because of the need for childcare. But there's no circumstances where it's easier to watch the kids from 10 miles away.

[Anonymous User]

It's also important to note, a solid amount of people likes being in the office. There are scores of people who do not have friends, a partner (or a partner they want to be away from), etc. and for them the office is a nice place to socialize. The office lovers won't admit to this (who likes admitting they don't have any social contact outside of work or they're sick of their partner?), but it's what I've noticed.

Lol, people can have friends/love their partners and still want to RTO.

Not saying no one meets your description, just that not all advocates for RTO are pathetic losers with no other social outlet.

Likewise, I don't feel the need to appease middle managers by picking out my high heels and expensive outfits and wasting 4 hours a day preparing my outside shell to go to an office to do the same work I could do in my pajamas covered in tomato sauce.

I know this is not the point of the post, but as a woman, I do not understand how anyone could spend 4 hours a day getting ready unless they are a starlet prepping for the Golden Globes. I mean, I'm a pretty low-key person and don't have a lot wrapped up in my appearance, but I don't think I look like a total disaster and it takes me maybe 20 minutes to get ready, especially if I shower the night before so I don't need to mess with my hair. Maybe it's time to rethink the beauty routine?

Accidental Anon & Quoted OP - sounds like you don't have curly hair -- can easily take 2+ hours to prepare for work just on hair alone. People say "just wear it natural" very hard to do and look professional with uneven or damaged curl patterns! If I have to do my hair wet it can take even longer, so if I work out prior. It's nice for you that you don't have those problems. On top of that, I don't enjoy the ritual of trying to fit my body into clothing that I was able to wear pre-covid.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, in my office - that seems to be the deciding factor. Some people absolutely can't work at home because of their kids. Those without kids prefer working at home. It's interesting because the narrative used to be that younger, childless folks want to socialize while those who are older with children prefer WFH because it helps with work-life balance. Of course, having children forced to be at home makes a huge difference.

This is the exact opposite of my experience. Maybe if you live in a tiny apartment you can't WFH. But if you have a home office with a door, just being able to pop upstairs for ten minutes to read the kid a bedtime story then go back downstairs to work makes it all doable in a way that before WFH it just wasn't .Of course, you need to have childcare worked out -- you can't watch the kids while working. But that's true of working in the office as well.

I think the child care is one of the big issues here. Some people with used to be able to WFH because the kids were in school. If the kids are doing virtual schooling from home - and especially if they’re too young to manage that on their own - and you don’t have a SAH spouse - it doesn’t matter if you have an office with a door that closes. Because people are making the shift to WFH in a pandemic that may well have blown their previous arrangements to hell.

I'm not following how this adds up to not wanting WFH - who is watching the kids when you go into the office?

if it's not a pandemic, depending on their age, their school teachers. (You may need after-school care, but that's still very different from finding all-day care.)

I feel like we're talking past each other. The premise was that WFH is harder for those with kids, because of the need for childcare. But there's no circumstances where it's easier to watch the kids from 10 miles away.

Exactly. WFH with kids is never “harder” because if you have to watch them while home then you can’t go to the office (though a partner I worked with brought his kids in at times and did calls with them jumping on him).
But someone else could be watching them at home and you have to work in a room where they nap/play. That happened to me at times, but that sacrifice was worth it vs lost time commuting and being able to play with the kids when I wasn't super busy. As a parent, my ideal situation is going to the office 2-3 days a week from 9-5 unless a deal is signing within 48 hours. And then logging back on around 7 till whenever.

[Anonymous User]

But someone else could be watching them at home and you have to work in a room where they nap/play. That happened to me at times, but that sacrifice was worth it vs lost time commuting and being able to play with the kids when I wasn't super busy. As a parent, my ideal situation is going to the office 2-3 days a week from 9-5 unless a deal is signing within 48 hours. And then logging back on around 7 till whenever.

Yeah this goes back to the whole "having an office with a door" thing. My kids know that I'm "going to work", whether I get in the car or go to my cave.

Being able to see the kids in the evenings, depending on how busy even do homework, read books, etc., it's just a huge difference in the WL balance. I'm working just as hard as I'd be in the office until 10.

[JusticeChuckleNutz]

It's also important to note, a solid amount of people likes being in the office. There are scores of people who do not have friends, a partner (or a partner they want to be away from), etc. and for them the office is a nice place to socialize. The office lovers won't admit to this (who likes admitting they don't have any social contact outside of work or they're sick of their partner?), but it's what I've noticed.

Lol, people can have friends/love their partners and still want to RTO.

Not saying no one meets your description, just that not all advocates for RTO are pathetic losers with no other social outlet.

Not trying to strike a nerve w/ anyone, BUT the few times I went into the office pre-omicron and post-delta I was talking with a few single ladies (I am also a woman) and one point that stuck out to me was how many people use work to find significant relationships, like partners/friends, etc. Chicken or the egg in terms of whether work prevents meaningful interaction outside of its working totalitarian bubble (time-wise) or whether those people are driven to find relationships at work because they're just driven totally by work of their own accord. Still, I was struck by what a friend said to me. "Of course, you don't want to go into the office, you're already dating someone. When you need to find a husband but they're all WFH it sucks."

The broader comment I've noticed returning to the office is that there are a lot of people who haven't adjusted (in my opinion), and, at the root, that's what I think RTO is all about. Society has fully changed over the last 2 years. WFH has changed all of us in some ways, whether we like to acknowledge that has no bearing on whether we have or society has changed. Going back to the office just feels like a refusal to acknowledge everything we've gone through in the past few years (to some of us), and to others, it is the thing they are waiting for because it signals a "return" to something they liked/missed/enjoyed in some way--and yes, people can retroactively assign enjoyment to things that they didn't like at the time in light of how it's all been taken away from them.

For me, I consider it a POV issue. Are we "returning" to the past style of work and work worship? If so, I am not open to that on any level. I will not be at my desk in a shared office space, in the middle of a respiratory pandemic, just so I can stay as late as a partner who is paid millions of dollars to do their job does. Likewise, I don't feel the need to appease middle managers by picking out my high heels and expensive outfits and wasting 4 hours a day preparing my outside shell to go to an office to do the same work I could do in my pajamas covered in tomato sauce. Maybe in 2019 I actually looked forward to these aspects? I honestly don't remember. It's not just been 2 years, it's been 2 years in a global pandemic in the most politically tumultuous time in living American memory.

If we don't just "return to normal" what are we going to do instead? Are we acknowledging that the past 2 years, and likely now almost a third year will be WFH partially or totally, even with the vaccine, have totally changed people's relationships to work? Nobody really knows what honoring peoples' changing/changed expectations of work will look like -- in that sense, it is an existential uncertainty. I read once people preferred pain and negative stimuli to no stimuli at all. The perfect metaphor is that some characters preferred to be plugged into the matrix than living in the world as it really was. I've noticed that NYC is totally different for me on a mental level. Manhattan looks sort of pathetic with all of these massive empty skyrises. We devoted so much land, space, building, resources to these offices which amount to nothing more than temples of productivity or shrines to work, in my view. The ultimate irony is that now the urban economy, which was built around that daily grind, is slowing to a halt as people blatantly refuse to ride the subway to their cubicle shrine and pay overpriced fees for lunches that are just okay and drycleaning for suits that they no longer need to launder. I guess firms really need to be intentional. I will not return to the office to take zooms at a desk in a shared office space just so I can boost Manhattan's struggling and virtually uncompetitive economy when I already pay astronomical sums of money to live here. But, if firms can offer us something more than just come sit at the desk to take a zoom call, and can be intentional about asking us to give them in-person time for legitimate reasons, then I suppose that's a different ballgame.

But, the mentality of "the juniors need it" when I'm about to become a mid-level during the WFH environment strikes me as disingenuine and a degree of bullshit that people just aren't eager to put up with anymore, especially after 2 years of having more control over our own lives. Americans are suddenly asking themselves: "what is the point of work?" We work all day long and so few of us ever dig ourselves out of debt or get ahead meaningfully in a way that makes the time of our single, precious life, which we devoted to working, feel like it wasn't wasted. Other people in this thread called us rule followers, but, I don't know about that. Lawyers are always looking for ways to advantage themselves and their positions, and I would wager a firm that has a bad WFH policy will lose many of its lawyers to positions that are willing to work in concert with advantaging the lawyer's quality of life concerns relative to time and work expectations.

I support and agree with every single word of this.

Same. I think this is really insightful and well thought out. Of all the valid points in here, it is weird that people are zeroing in on the "4 hours" line but whatever. I truly hope that we never return to pre-pandemic 2019 norms. Shit was miserable. I have so much more autonomy over my life. I also really hope that you are right and firms begin viewing a flexible WFH policy as a retention tool and attorneys leave in droves if a firm rolls out a bad WFH policy.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly think that COVID, despite the increased hours, has given my biglaw career a longer life than it otherwise would have had because of the decreased travel, more time at home, and ability to consistently at least see my kid every day, even if it's just for 5 minutes. Eventually I'm going to want to get back in 2 days a week, maybe 3 some weeks, but I will never be willing to do consistent 5 days for biglaw again.

Having the 5 minutes here and there with my kid that I didn't have before is something that I can't "unsee." I'm not going to do that to my kid either, because my kid is too young to remember "before," so my kid has just grown up with me being able to see him basically every day, read a bedtime story almost every day, eat dinner with them the majority of time, etc.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly think that COVID, despite the increased hours, has given my biglaw career a longer life than it otherwise would have had because of the decreased travel, more time at home, and ability to consistently at least see my kid every day, even if it's just for 5 minutes. Eventually I'm going to want to get back in 2 days a week, maybe 3 some weeks, but I will never be willing to do consistent 5 days for biglaw again.

Having the 5 minutes here and there with my kid that I didn't have before is something that I can't "unsee." I'm not going to do that to my kid either, because my kid is too young to remember "before," so my kid has just grown up with me being able to see him basically every day, read a bedtime story almost every day, eat dinner with them the majority of time, etc.

100% same here. No kids, but after my first few months of working (started in 2019) I started feeling the wear a bit. We have a glass office concept, and I constantly felt like I had to be "on." Even during my downtime I felt the pressure to appear busy. Then lockdowns hit. When it wasn't busy, I could relax a bit. I could go to the gym at noon. I could always have dinner with my partner. I got some control of my life back.

[Anonymous User]

My kids know that I'm "going to work", whether I get in the car or go to my cave.

Wish my coworkers' kids knew this. I swear, every Zoom meeting someone's kids are hopping in front of the webcam, talking loudly and/or waving at people on the screen. Like, I get it's a struggle to have kids at home while working (I'm a parent as well), but a lot of these kids are old enough to understand that they shouldn't be disturbing their parents while they're clearly in a meeting (think 7 to 10 years old). I don't understand how these boundaries haven't been set after almost two years of a pandemic. I'm starting to think that a lot of parents in this profession are just kinda...bad at parenting.

Hell, last year I had a job interview and my interviewer had her child sitting on her lap the whole interview. It was so distracting. Again, I try to be understanding and patient with people, but a line has to be drawn somewhere...

[Anonymous User]

My kids know that I'm "going to work", whether I get in the car or go to my cave.

Wish my coworkers' kids knew this. I swear, every Zoom meeting someone's kids are hopping in front of the webcam, talking loudly and/or waving at people on the screen. Like, I get it's a struggle to have kids at home while working (I'm a parent as well), but a lot of these kids are old enough to understand that they shouldn't be disturbing their parents while they're clearly in a meeting (think 7 to 10 years old). I don't understand how these boundaries haven't been set after almost two years of a pandemic. I'm starting to think that a lot of parents in this profession are just kinda...bad at parenting.

Hell, last year I had a job interview and my interviewer had her child sitting on her lap the whole interview. It was so distracting. Again, I try to be understanding and patient with people, but a line has to be drawn somewhere...

I mostly agree (also - pets, cmon people), but do not say this out loud lol

[Anonymous User]

Yup, agree with the above. It was cute in March 2020, back when we were all in this together, two weeks to flatten the curve etc. Can still see circumstances where it's okay to have kids/pets visible, but generally keep your home office as professional as possible.