Culture shock in BigLaw Forum

[cisscum]

I don’t understand the mentality that you didn’t “earn” it. Did you not study for the LSAT, go through law school, take in debt, pass the bar etc.? How is that not earning it? If anything you earned it more than the boomers who paid 10,000 for law school and made partner in 6 years lol

OP. I get what you mean, but none of those things was actual work for the firm. Also, re: debt, there was no way I was taking on debt for law school lol. Again, taking on $200k of debt would have raised serious moral questions for me about financial planning.

Yeah I don’t follow. The firm is paying you a high salary because you have a pedigree that you’ve earned. They’re not just paying you for the physical hours worked.

Even if you didn’t borrow money, you got a scholarship that you also presumably earned.

[cisscum]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

I would also add that ops background is not special. There’s tons of people in biglaw who had parents (particularly immigrants) who were poor, but the offspring grew up middle class. Particularly Asian or Indian backgrounds. Most people who come from truly wealthy backgrounds don’t even want to work biglaw. You’re nothing special OP.

[Anonymous User]

I dont think "no judgement from me at all" means what you think it means. FWIW, I think you're right about frugality, but no one likes a moralist who purports to be neutral. You have a take. Own it!

Here's my take: though I agree with you on excessive spending and perks (its a job, just give me cash...), I'm also repulsed by anyone who refers to themselves as "down to earth".

[Anonymous User]

I grew up in a lower middle class/working class family. I was fortunate to go to a really good high school and college on scholarship, so I'm used to being spoiled, materially speaking.

I have no qualms about spending a wealthy corporation's money, but I would never spend any of my own money on a Michelin restaurant, or even extended cab rides.

Everything is a massive grift and fraud, and you just need to run with it. Law schools charging students $400,000 to pay boomer salaries, the U.S. govt facilitating this massive wealth transfer, biglaw firms billing their clients $1,000 per hour for endless needless busywork, restaurants charging $50 for an entree because they know it's being comped by a firm/client.

Just have a sense of humor about it.

[Anonymous User]

Similar background to OP, grew up comfortable enough and went to top undergrad and law school (on scholarship) but never had a remotely biglawy lifestyle, grew up in a rural area, went to a high school where college graduation is not the norm, etc. Also lol @ people who identify a housekeeper as a marker of the rich, tons of working-class people have a "cleaning lady" come once every couple of weeks.

I think a lot of people on this thread just can't imagine that there are tons of people who didn't even grow up particularly poor who have never gone to a big-city-standard fancy restaurant, gotten a $300 gift, stayed in a Hyatt, or travelled to a distant vacation in their life, and it can be very alienating to adjust to. Also, working at a top firm is socially not much like going to a top law school or Ivy undergrad, especially in the way of the sorts of perks that are particularly uncomfortable for OP, it's not like I was getting $100 steaks during 1L.

Like others have said the right attitude to have towards this stuff is that it's an advance, and you will get used to it to an extent, but biglawyers generally have little understanding of "how the other half lives." I think it's not uncommon among people with our backgrounds to be fairly disturbed by that, have concerns that it might change you in ways you do not approve of, eventually worry about how your children will grow up, etc.

[Anonymous User]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

Very much this. I’m sorry OP but you frankly sound like a weirdo.

[lavarman84]

OP here; thanks for the responses so far. No, I would not be more comfortable at a pro-bono organization. I like BL work, and I like BL pay, and I disagree ideologically with most pro bono orgs that hire from my school. Also, I am not poor, nor is my family poor (I have ~$150k in savings and will graduate with no debt).

The issue is not the compensation. The issue is the extravagance bestowed on people for doing no work (pre-offer) or very little work (up to now). Maybe it is some latent Protestant work ethic rearing its head or something, but the entire thing just creeps me out. I do not feel I have done anything to "deserve" it (again, this does NOT apply to the salary itself).

Anyone is welcome to respond and this is a public forum, but I think any insight from people who have felt the same or who can relate would be most helpful.

The firm is courting you. Once you start work as an associate, it'll be churn and burn. I'm not sure how you deal with your feelings now. But I expect it'll be less problematic in the future once the courtship is done and the reality of firm life sets in. As for having an assistant, I've never really adjusted to that. So I can't offer any advice there.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Thanks again for the continued perspectives. I think that this post generally captures my thoughts/feelings.

[Anonymous User]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

OP. I am sorry about my perspective, and I do hope that you do not have to deal with me. At the least know that I am not judging anyone or how they spend their money. And I certainly do not view the issue as "getting a nice meal here and there."

[Anonymous User]

Yeah I don’t follow. The firm is paying you a high salary because you have a pedigree that you’ve earned. They’re not just paying you for the physical hours worked.

Even if you didn’t borrow money, you got a scholarship that you also presumably earned.

OP. Thanks for this--it is hard for me to wrap my head around that level of elitism, but I guess it is what it is.

[Anonymous User]

I would also add that ops background is not special. There’s tons of people in biglaw who had parents (particularly immigrants) who were poor, but the offspring grew up middle class. Particularly Asian or Indian backgrounds. Most people who come from truly wealthy backgrounds don’t even want to work biglaw. You’re nothing special OP.

OP. Correct on all counts.

[Anonymous User]

I dont think "no judgement from me at all" means what you think it means. FWIW, I think you're right about frugality, but no one likes a moralist who purports to be neutral. You have a take. Own it!

OP. There is nothing to own. My perspective is the result of my own moral/religious/ethical values that do not extend to others, who may have different values and I do not view as bound by my own beliefs in any way. Which is exactly why this post is about me, not others.

Here's my take: though I agree with you on excessive spending and perks (its a job, just give me cash...), I'm also repulsed by anyone who refers to themselves as "down to earth".

I agree. Which is why I would reserve that judgment to others as it applies to myself but have no problem describing others that way based on getting to know them over years.

[Anonymous User]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

Very much this. I’m sorry OP but you frankly sound like a weirdo.

OP. Obviously I am a "weirdo"; if I thought my perspective were widely shared, there would be no reason for this topic in the first place.

[Untitleddestiny]

Jeez.... seriously complaining about getting free things? I hope you never make Partner, we don't need your mindset propagating upward. Single most idiotic complaint about Biglaw I have ever heard. Building as much morale as possible and trying to make people happy is a good thing; you will pay for everything you get many times over soon enough

[feminist.supporter]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

I would also add that ops background is not special. There’s tons of people in biglaw who had parents (particularly immigrants) who were poor, but the offspring grew up middle class. Particularly Asian or Indian backgrounds. Most people who come from truly wealthy backgrounds don’t even want to work biglaw. You’re nothing special OP.

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

[Anonymous User]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

I would also add that ops background is not special. There’s tons of people in biglaw who had parents (particularly immigrants) who were poor, but the offspring grew up middle class. Particularly Asian or Indian backgrounds. Most people who come from truly wealthy backgrounds don’t even want to work biglaw. You’re nothing special OP.

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

That's because our salaries are good if you grew up broke. (I'm a child of immigrants who grew up thinking 100k was a lot).

Went to top undergrad and law school, and the truly wealthy don't really work as much as they follow their hobbies and make careers out of it. I know people working 9-5 making 250K+ in a much less stress inducing environment (think Soethby's or random business roles/companies they started with their network/better capital resources).

You only do this job when you don't have options. You might fuck around and get rich (make equity partner). Then you get to watch your kids become the rich kids you went to school with - which is really the only reason I'm still working at this point. It's not about me being set for life anymore - it's about my kids never having to work. And then, it'll be about their kids never having to work and so forth. Every family is one person away from altering the course of their familial history. OP - I wanna be that one person for my family and that's why you should get used to taking what's yours and more.

[Lubberlubber]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

I would also add that ops background is not special. There’s tons of people in biglaw who had parents (particularly immigrants) who were poor, but the offspring grew up middle class. Particularly Asian or Indian backgrounds. Most people who come from truly wealthy backgrounds don’t even want to work biglaw. You’re nothing special OP.

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

That's because our salaries are good if you grew up broke. (I'm a child of immigrants who grew up thinking 100k was a lot).

Went to top undergrad and law school, and the truly wealthy don't really work as much as they follow their hobbies and make careers out of it. I know people working 9-5 making 250K+ in a much less stress inducing environment (think Soethby's or random business roles/companies they started with their network/better capital resources).

You only do this job when you don't have options. You might fuck around and get rich (make equity partner). Then you get to watch your kids become the rich kids you went to school with - which is really the only reason I'm still working at this point. It's not about me being set for life anymore - it's about my kids never having to work. And then, it'll be about their kids never having to work and so forth. Every family is one person away from altering the course of their familial history. OP - I wanna be that one person for my family and that's why you should get used to taking what's yours and more.

I think this is kind of a bleak take. While it's true that the truly truly wealthy probably don't go to professional school and become lawyers or bankers or whatever, there are plenty of kids of law firm partners, business executives, senior bankers, etc. at my V10. If biglaw was only filled with poor tryhard immigrant kids, OP wouldn't have the problem he raised.

I grew up pretty upper-middle class, went to lots of international vacations, nice restaurants/hotels/gifts, etc., but my family wasn't wealthy enough to support me living a life of leisure, so here I am...

[jotarokujo]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

I would also add that ops background is not special. There’s tons of people in biglaw who had parents (particularly immigrants) who were poor, but the offspring grew up middle class. Particularly Asian or Indian backgrounds. Most people who come from truly wealthy backgrounds don’t even want to work biglaw. You’re nothing special OP.

nah a lot of people like that who need to maximizing money are going straight into tech/banking/consulting after undergrad. law school is not for people who are maximizing money

[Anonymous User]

OP: you sound like a pain in the ass and I hope you're not joining my firm. The way you talk about your values is very preachy and condescending. And yes, you're in a very small minority to feel that way, and no we're not wrong to be totally OK with getting a nice meal here and there on the firm's dime.

I would also add that ops background is not special. There’s tons of people in biglaw who had parents (particularly immigrants) who were poor, but the offspring grew up middle class. Particularly Asian or Indian backgrounds. Most people who come from truly wealthy backgrounds don’t even want to work biglaw. You’re nothing special OP.

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

That's because our salaries are good if you grew up broke. (I'm a child of immigrants who grew up thinking 100k was a lot).

Went to top undergrad and law school, and the truly wealthy don't really work as much as they follow their hobbies and make careers out of it. I know people working 9-5 making 250K+ in a much less stress inducing environment (think Soethby's or random business roles/companies they started with their network/better capital resources).

You only do this job when you don't have options. You might fuck around and get rich (make equity partner). Then you get to watch your kids become the rich kids you went to school with - which is really the only reason I'm still working at this point. It's not about me being set for life anymore - it's about my kids never having to work. And then, it'll be about their kids never having to work and so forth. Every family is one person away from altering the course of their familial history. OP - I wanna be that one person for my family and that's why you should get used to taking what's yours and more.

I think this is kind of a bleak take. While it's true that the truly truly wealthy probably don't go to professional school and become lawyers or bankers or whatever, there are plenty of kids of law firm partners, business executives, senior bankers, etc. at my V10. If biglaw was only filled with poor tryhard immigrant kids, OP wouldn't have the problem he raised.

I grew up pretty upper-middle class, went to lots of international vacations, nice restaurants/hotels/gifts, etc., but my family wasn't wealthy enough to support me living a life of leisure, so here I am...

I for sure exaggerated; there are plenty of upper middle class children of lawyers/doctors etc. that go into biglaw/medicine, etc. But, what I mean to say is that doctors and lawyers aren't what they once were. Both used to be a guaranteed safe route to wealth. You used to be able to put in your time, work hard and be more or less guaranteed to have a very, very good earning potential.

I still think both are great options to comfortable lives, but with the death of private practice in medicine and diminishing equity partnership prospects in law, combined with increased student loan debt, the fields are not what they once were.

Sure, I think wealthy kids who can go to school debt free and become a doctor/lawyer will continue to do so in the short-term. However, how long will wealthy kids continue to go into these fields as hours get longer, long term earning potential declines, and they see their friends/counterparts in finance and tech outpace them in lifestyle and money? I think being a doctor/lawyer is becoming increasingly a field for middle/lower-middle class people to climb up and get themselves to upper middle class. People born into upper middle class who become doctors/lawyers are at best stagnating and staying at the same level their parents were. Or, most likely, their quality of their life will be worse than their parents who entered the fields when earning potential was better.

[jotarokujo]

Sure, I think wealthy kids who can go to school debt free and become a doctor/lawyer will continue to do so in the short-term. However, how long will wealthy kids continue to go into these fields as hours get longer, long term earning potential declines, and they see their friends/counterparts in finance and tech outpace them in lifestyle and money? I think being a doctor/lawyer is becoming increasingly a field for middle/lower-middle class people to climb up and get themselves to upper middle class. People born into upper middle class who become doctors/lawyers are at best stagnating and staying at the same level their parents were. Or, most likely, their quality of their life will be worse than their parents who entered the fields when earning potential was better.

if finance and tech outpaces law in money, then it will draw people who need money more than people who don't need money. the less lucrative but still prestigious law is, the more it will be for those who can afford to do something less lucrative. middle/lower folks will go into finance, tech, quant out of undergrad

[thisismytlsuername]

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

Who the hell refers to Choate as "Choate Rosemary Hall"?

You only do this job when you don't have options. You might fuck around and get rich (make equity partner). Then you get to watch your kids become the rich kids you went to school with - which is really the only reason I'm still working at this point. It's not about me being set for life anymore - it's about my kids never having to work. And then, it'll be about their kids never having to work and so forth. Every family is one person away from altering the course of their familial history. OP - I wanna be that one person for my family and that's why you should get used to taking what's yours and more.

Unless you make executive committee at one of the 20 or so most profitable firms in the world, you ain't gonna earn generational wealth working in biglaw. You can certainly become very rich and your kids won't have to worry about money, but they'll probably still have to work (though they can be artists/actors or whatever) and your grandkids definitely aren't gonna be living off their trust funds.

[Anonymous User]

I for sure exaggerated; there are plenty of upper middle class children of lawyers/doctors etc. that go into biglaw/medicine, etc. But, what I mean to say is that doctors and lawyers aren't what they once were. Both used to be a guaranteed safe route to wealth. You used to be able to put in your time, work hard and be more or less guaranteed to have a very, very good earning potential.

I still think both are great options to comfortable lives, but with the death of private practice in medicine and diminishing equity partnership prospects in law, combined with increased student loan debt, the fields are not what they once were.

Sure, I think wealthy kids who can go to school debt free and become a doctor/lawyer will continue to do so in the short-term. However, how long will wealthy kids continue to go into these fields as hours get longer, long term earning potential declines, and they see their friends/counterparts in finance and tech outpace them in lifestyle and money? I think being a doctor/lawyer is becoming increasingly a field for middle/lower-middle class people to climb up and get themselves to upper middle class. People born into upper middle class who become doctors/lawyers are at best stagnating and staying at the same level their parents were. Or, most likely, their quality of their life will be worse than their parents who entered the fields when earning potential was better.

These are great points, but I think as with every "high-end" profession (banking, consulting, tech, law), increasingly the greatest gains are going to fewer and fewer people. It's not like every banker or tech bro ends up MD or IPOing to the tune of millions either! Basically, I think in all these professions, the chances of making it have gotten smaller, but the rewards have gotten greater. I don't think 100 years ago the Cravath partners were taking home 5 or 6 million a year, or maybe I'm wrong.

In any case, with the most recent salary increases, a perma-senior associate at a V50 is taking home over half a million a year, hardly struggling to get by.

[TUwave]

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

Who the hell refers to Choate as "Choate Rosemary Hall"?

You only do this job when you don't have options. You might fuck around and get rich (make equity partner). Then you get to watch your kids become the rich kids you went to school with - which is really the only reason I'm still working at this point. It's not about me being set for life anymore - it's about my kids never having to work. And then, it'll be about their kids never having to work and so forth. Every family is one person away from altering the course of their familial history. OP - I wanna be that one person for my family and that's why you should get used to taking what's yours and more.

Unless you make executive committee at one of the 20 or so most profitable firms in the world, you ain't gonna earn generational wealth working in biglaw. You can certainly become very rich and your kids won't have to worry about money, but they'll probably still have to work (though they can be artists/actors or whatever) and your grandkids definitely aren't gonna be living off their trust funds.

They're talking about the elite boarding school, not the semi-elite Boston firm.

[Lubberlubber]

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

Who the hell refers to Choate as "Choate Rosemary Hall"?

You only do this job when you don't have options. You might fuck around and get rich (make equity partner). Then you get to watch your kids become the rich kids you went to school with - which is really the only reason I'm still working at this point. It's not about me being set for life anymore - it's about my kids never having to work. And then, it'll be about their kids never having to work and so forth. Every family is one person away from altering the course of their familial history. OP - I wanna be that one person for my family and that's why you should get used to taking what's yours and more.

Unless you make executive committee at one of the 20 or so most profitable firms in the world, you ain't gonna earn generational wealth working in biglaw. You can certainly become very rich and your kids won't have to worry about money, but they'll probably still have to work (though they can be artists/actors or whatever) and your grandkids definitely aren't gonna be living off their trust funds.

They're talking about the elite boarding school, not the semi-elite Boston firm.

Ya...no one who went to Choate calls it "Choate Rosemary Hall". Did you know people who call it PHILLIPS ACADEMY ANDOVER?

[Anonymous User]

Can confirm. Witnessed the attitude of Connecticut hedge fund money kids at Choate Rosemary Hall. None of them gave a shit about the salaries in iB/bl; they do it becasue (a) they can, and (b) it's just something to do/keep oneself occupied instead of blowing coke and hookers.

Who the hell refers to Choate as "Choate Rosemary Hall"?

You only do this job when you don't have options. You might fuck around and get rich (make equity partner). Then you get to watch your kids become the rich kids you went to school with - which is really the only reason I'm still working at this point. It's not about me being set for life anymore - it's about my kids never having to work. And then, it'll be about their kids never having to work and so forth. Every family is one person away from altering the course of their familial history. OP - I wanna be that one person for my family and that's why you should get used to taking what's yours and more.

Unless you make executive committee at one of the 20 or so most profitable firms in the world, you ain't gonna earn generational wealth working in biglaw. You can certainly become very rich and your kids won't have to worry about money, but they'll probably still have to work (though they can be artists/actors or whatever) and your grandkids definitely aren't gonna be living off their trust funds.

One caveat to this is big law still is a decent launching pad to other, more profitable (or prestigious) things. Just look at how many politicians have worked in big law. Not to sound Stockhold-Syndrome-y but the skills you learn in big law (mainly working really really hard and being nitpicky about everything) lends itself well to other demanding professions.